On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[overfiend87]

I'm still pissed off for Bethesda deciding to block my achievement.

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #39553645.

DOOMBUNNYakaKIPA wrote: Xbone users feel cheated cuz less modding than PC users. PC modders feel butthurt cuz Xbone users with access to a PC does some piracy. It's wrong to steal. It's not fair for Xbone users. It's wrong to take credit for other's work. People blame Bethesda(.aids) yadda yadda et cetera et cetera... Solution: stricter rules and less freedom. Yay.

...Anyone wanna sit down and drink a Cola with me?.. =_=

P.S. I hope Bethesda will chill down a bit, cuz if they end up as did EA, I think it'll go bad for them. Let it be like Skyrim all over again, pretty please~!

P.P.S. I dislike PC users thinking they're the "master race." Sure, console users got it worse than friggin' 4k+ euro PC rigs on almost all fronts, but chivalry isn't a bad thing, so people should just behave and get along. So now, GIMME YER HAND. I wanna shake it.

I wish the "PC Master Race with 4K rigs" myth would die already.

My rig cost about as much as an Xbox1, because I bought it piece by piece.
Hell, I just upgraded the video card for $70 bucks because my old card was a bit underpowered for FO4.
It doesn't take a 4K rig to run games.
People who spend 4K on a rig are spending that much because they're getting just released hardware like $400 video cards that within a year will drop to $75 because the newer cards will inevitably come out, they're getting the just released CPUs, Motherboards, Water-cooling etc etc.
Some people like spending that much, while other people like me, wait about a year for the new stuff to drop in price because the "new" new stuff was just released.

I always stay at least a year behind, because the year old hardware can run all the games, and is heavily marked down.

[TheCheeseCakeGuy]

In response to post #39491315. #39496050, #39497250, #39531815, #39534800, #39535005, #39554390, #39554680, #39556240, #39557575 are all replies on the same post.

tvs_frank wrote: I think the simplest solution to this would be to just make your mod rely the SKSE libraries, even something as basic as a texture replacer. There must be a way, right?

qasm0ke wrote: SKSE for Skyrim and F4SE for Fallout 4. This way the developer can focus & care about only for PC. That's the way I think.

I don't have any console so I couldn't test anyway. My Skyrim mods are all require SKSE, so if the so-called 'thief' stole my mod to Bethesda market, he can't play it on non-PC environment.

Darkstorne wrote: That's not a solution though. It's a temporary preventative measure to avoid theft, that prevents ALL console users enjoying a mod because of the arrogance of a very small minority who would resort to theft.

A solution has to come from Bethesda, so that mod authors can feel safe about releasing their content wherever they choose, without fear of theft, because they can trust Bethesda to work as hard as the Nexus staff to do protect their creations.

Consoles on mods could be a wonderful thing. The reason we're all here is because we love modding our Bethesda games on PC, to get a lot more out of them, and I'm really glad console users will be getting a similar experience from now on. Bethesda definitely need to step it up though, and focus on protecting content instead of blatantly focusing on a method of trying to reintroduce paid mods with a 75/25 split in favour of themselves and Valve again...

jonboy wrote: Perhaps some sort of key or other dependency check, one for each platform? Something you tick off in the CK, which embeds this dependency within the file where no one can (easily) change. This version is for PC/XB1/PS4 only or any combination of.

JN273 wrote: And the mod would still work on a console. Even if it requires SKSE or FOSE, you can still download the mod. They're never included in the mod, hence the mod would work because it's just a "fake" requirement.

Tantalus010 wrote: @jonboy - what if the original mod author wants to change it in the future? Even if you have a good answer for that question, a feature like what you're proposing would require a pretty thorough rewrite of how the CK works. By default, the tools implicitly trust the user and grant full read/write access to the esp or esm.

I think requiring script extenders in mods is a good temporary solution until Bethesda gets their s#*! together and fixes Bethesda.net's frankly unprofessional problems.

ThinkerTinker wrote: I definitely think we're on the right track with requiring SKSE or relevant script extender to run a mod. There are shortcomings in using a script extender as such a validation check - but this is how brainstorming and real problem solving works. Someone comes up with a good idea and people see why its a good idea at the root. In my opinion, I think its a good idea because it involves the use of an external tool that can be checked upon.

So maybe SKSE isn't the exact long-term solution - maybe we create another external tool explicitly for the use of compatibility checking for a PC version of a mod (or lack thereof, for a console I guess?) But I think we're on the right track - use the benefits and uniqueness of the platform (in this case, PC) in order to hard-code compatibility and ensure against piracy. These are ideas we can build from and that's what makes this community so successful. Putting down ideas, or not trying to be open-minded about suggestions for solutions is sort of toxic and I hate to see this community resort to that language.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: This would also benefit Bethesda because Pirated versions of their games do not support FASE or SKSE.

ToxicInfinity wrote: I don't create mods, so maybe this seems like a stupid question. I think this is a great temporary solution, however, couldn't someone planning on stealing mods teach themselves enough code to simply remove the requirement of F4SE before reuploading it?

If a mod doesn't in any way actually need the F4SE, but instead requires it with a "fake" requirement where it won't work without it but doesn't actually need it, couldn't someone download the mod, remove the requirement, and it then works?

I'm thinking along the lines of content mods, such as gun mods. I haven't noticed if many or even any of the gun mods require F4SE, meaning they don't need it to be created. But say a mod author makes a gun mod and makes it require F4SE in an attempt to stop the stealing. Then, someone could download it, change the mod to work like most gun mods do now and remove the F4SE requirement and re-upload it to Bethesda.net, the protection has failed. Maybe this isn't as easy as I think it is since I have no coding or mod creation experience, but I thought it might be worth considering this issue if it is fairly easy.

ThinkerTinker wrote: @Toxic, you're right in that removing the script extender dependency by a pirate is an option in some cases. There are a couple scenarios I could see that would prevent this being an issue:

1) The more long-term method: create some other kind of external application that these mods tap into outside of a "script extender." This sort of application is beyond my scope of understanding; I'm not an expert with DirectX games or writing software any more complicated than simple C++ Console applications and C# Windows Forms but I think if there's a will, people will find a way to make it happen.

2) A more immediate method: changing the dependency on a script extender requires access to the source code. The files that the game reads (any scripts your mod includes) are compiled files - i.e. they can't just be opened up and modified. Source files are required to edit script dependencies et cetera. So in order for a pirate to change the dependency the pirate would have to have access to the source code, know how to code, and have the tools necessary to recompile the source code after being altered. Setting up that whole configuration is...not just a 30 minute job.

Now, in the case of requiring dependencies or compatibility checks when all your mod does is include some loose files for overwriting a couple game textures with custom made ones of your own, I'm not sure how a script extender could be used in preventing this, but again, I think if the community thinks about it enough a solution will present itself.

The scrip extender doesn't always work, which would 'cause a s#*! ton of issues.

[TheCheeseCakeGuy]

In response to post #39558970.

overfiend87 wrote: I'm still pissed off for Bethesda deciding to block my achievement.

There's a mod for that lol

[frogsot]

Maybe you can convince beth to make your site the official modding site for fallout 4 and skyrim? Unless off course they plan to bring back paid mods and would have to cut you in, or mostly you would refuse paid mods all together and they would go back to beth.net\

 

Lets face it. They plan on bringing paid mods to consoles. Why else would they put so much effort into this? Steam knows better now after what happened. Bethesda might not of learned its lesson. Console players wont protest paid mods since they never had them before now. Every game now has micro transactions, this is there way of making a lot more.

[DrakeTheDragon]

In response to post #39552700.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more. kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).


Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.


Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear. boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."


Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route. boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.


Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>


:rolleyes:boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point. boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.


In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?! wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.


Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?

@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

 

Exactly this!

I was pretty shocked they went and just removed all his comments. As I said previously in this topic ... I feel like what is causing more problems than anything is this sort of behavior. No one is solving anything simply by censoring and silencing those they do not agree with.

DraketheDragon I believe his name was, a moderator, said that his comments and other peoples comments like his was causing massive destruction. Talk about an over reaction on the matter. I mean what destruction?

I may not agree entirely with boomerizer ... but he didn't break any rules by stating his opinion, nor did he deserve all his comments purged.

I could understand if he was advocating simply stealing mods out right and / or piracy, but that really wasn't what he was doing. Not if you know how to read. But people only want to hear what they want to hear and act like he said things much worse than what he actually said. Then they fling insults toward his way and even my way, and the mods remove his comments, not the people insulting others. Talk about having priorities all in the wrong places.

Yet, people wonder why so many console players see the pc crowd the way they do lol.

If you haven't noticed, yet, the entire chains of replies have been removed, not just one member's posts. It turned into a mess of name calling and insult hurling quickly, and no civilized discussion could be held anymore within it. These posts crossed the line, so I agree with their removal. Although my original post vanished along with them as well.

Considering the amount of reports which flooded the report system within short time from inside these reply chains it might've been best to remove the last remaining quote still containing the entire chain as well at this point, but the way it is now the place got cleaned up while the posts are still there for all to see, "if" they decide they want to see them.

If there's still insults remaining which were aimed at you, or others for that matter, feel free to report them as well, and they'll soon be gone. This wasn't just one admin's decision, but a barrage of reports leading to moderation stepping in, just like it always does.

I can't consider this censoring at all, if moderation just cleaned up a mess of useless infighting and personal attacks.

That you can't see the damage these posts always cause and the actual scale this has is bad enough already. That's why I tried to make you aware of it. If you think it is an over-reaction on my part though, I'm afraid I must inform you you are wrong, and massively so.

You don't see what I see, perhaps, because the authors mostly see no sense in taking part in these discussions anymore, which will always only turn into public slaughter feasts instead. Some "are" indeed speaking up in here, and you're basically verbally killing them, the rest sees it and doesn't think it's worth the bother.

They got other priorities than to listen to your, in their eyes, meaningless opinions about things you have no say in and should not. Why should they pay you any mind, if you can't be bothered to show even a modicum of respect to them? This thing is a really huge issue to them. So let me ask, why isn't it to you?

Talking it down really is no help, as it's only adding insult to injury, nor is it making it magically go away. Injured these people already are enough, and insulted just as much. "Pre-emptive banning" of users from authors' pages has again been brought up for discussion, and I swear, it will come the day when the majority will no longer vote against it.

(Again, like last time, "you" in this post doesn't necessarily mean you personally but the people I was talking to with my last post that you referred to in general. No hard feelings, not from me anyways, can't talk about the authors though, just trying to make you understand towards where you're heading with this.)

I really better shouldn't have bothered though, in an afterthought.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

Let me see if I can take a shot at this one.

 

I am an artist. I love to paint and draw but it is a hobby not a career. I just like when people like them. So I paint a lovely scene of a church and country lane. I make them into a bunch of small prints and give them out on the street to whomever would like them. My name is at the bottom as all artist typically are. People are happy. I am happy. So I pack up my things and go home.

 

A few weeks later I walk by an art gallery and there is my print, I did not give the print to the gallery. I go in to talk to the gallery owner and they kinda brush me off even though I have proof the work is mine. I walk out upset and there is a large group of people pointing at the work and they look mad. One person yells, "That is the one that painted the cards like the picture! Get her!!" I then run for my life...possibly regretting having shared something I loved with others.

 

I now see the print everywhere. And most people no longer know I painted it. It is being used in all kinds of places I did not intend and I am not given credit for it.

 

So this is how I see the mod theft thing.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else.

 

Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion.

 

First part, no it isn't like a base for others to use. Many times a mod is a single, enclosed creative work. It isn't a connect-the-dots they give someone.

 

And it is great you don't care. You make something and share it then are ok with others doing whatever (and many mods are like this) then superior attitude. But your single opinion can not over-ride the hundreds of mod authors that do not feel the same. That expect they can share what they want, where they want and have it used in the way they intended. You may think this is shallow or naive or even an attitude of asshattery. Nonetheless there is not a single thing saying they can not do as they please with their mods and that the mods are, copyrighted to the mod author as soon as it breathes life on a medium it may be demonstrated.

[Tabub2001]

Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39537345.

Carthean wrote: In my opinion, releasing mods for console was just a terrible idea. Not just because of this issue but because of constant harrassment to the PC modders.

I've seen an account going around bethesda.net copy pasting a wall of text basically begging the authors to magically click the button that makes the mod work on console.

Once again, Bethesda are trying to ruin modding for us and my heart goes out to all those mod authors that are currently being crapped on.

Bethesda isn't intentionally trying to ruin modding; they're trying to make money off of it. That said, I agree that console mods are a bad idea for numerous reasons - lack of easy tech support for the mods, cross-platform issues, and an all-around increased workload on mod authors are just a few. Until this whole piracy issue reared its ugly head, I hadn't even thought of it being a problem. I figured Bethesda would know better. Guess not.

[MarchinBunny]

 

If you haven't noticed, yet, the entire chains of replies have been removed, not just one member's posts. It turned into a mess of name calling and insult hurling quickly, and no civilized discussion could be held anymore within it. These posts crossed the line, so I agree with their removal. Although my original post vanished along with them as well.

 

Considering the amount of reports which flooded the report system within short time from inside these reply chains it might've been best to remove the last remaining quote still containing the entire chain as well at this point, but the way it is now the place got cleaned up while the posts are still there for all to see, "if" they decide they want to see them.

 

If there's still insults remaining which were aimed at you, or others for that matter, feel free to report them as well, and they'll soon be gone. This wasn't just one admin's decision, but a barrage of reports leading to moderation stepping in, just like it always does.

 

I can't consider this censoring at all, if moderation just cleaned up a mess of useless infighting and personal attacks.

 

That you can't see the damage these posts always cause and the actual scale this has is bad enough already. That's why I tried to make you aware of it. If you think it is an over-reaction on my part though, I'm afraid I must inform you you are wrong, and massively so.

 

You don't see what I see, perhaps, because the authors mostly see no sense in taking part in these discussions anymore, which will always only turn into public slaughter feasts instead. Some "are" indeed speaking up in here, and you're basically verbally killing them, the rest sees it and doesn't think it's worth the bother.

 

They got other priorities than to listen to your, in their eyes, meaningless opinions about things you have no say in and should not. Why should they pay you any mind, if you can't be bothered to show even a modicum of respect to them? This thing is a really huge issue to them. So let me ask, why isn't it to you?

 

Talking it down really is no help, as it's only adding insult to injury, nor is it making it magically go away. Injured these people already are enough, and insulted just as much. "Pre-emptive banning" of users from authors' pages has again been brought up for discussion, and I swear, it will come the day when the majority will no longer vote against it.

 

(Again, like last time, "you" in this post doesn't necessarily mean you personally but the people I was talking to with my last post that you referred to in general. No hard feelings, not from me anyways, can't talk about the authors though, just trying to make you understand towards where you're heading with this.)

 

I really better shouldn't have bothered though, in an afterthought.

 

 

No, I actually had not noticed it was the chain of replies that was all removed. I suppose that makes more sense though. However, something you should be aware about was it was specifically pointed out at boomerizer, when he wasn't the one throwing insults really. All he really did was state his opinion. That I do consider censorship because the moderator specifically talked about removing his posts, not the posts with insults or rule breaking.

 

As for the authors, if they see no part in taking part in this discussion then clearly nothing is going to get solved. You don't solve things by ignoring the problem, no matter how much you hate dealing with the problem. They also need to be reasonable and understand the other side of the argument instead of just writing it off like everyone is out to destroy them.

 

Like for example, I am not sticking up for mod theft, but you and everyone else needs to realize many people have no idea that this is even an issue whom are on console. Heck, even some people on PC may not be aware that the modding community here doesn't condone redistributing. To them, they are not doing anything wrong, no more wrong than passing on a picture they found on the internet.

 

When you decide to bite peoples heads off, who feel they are not doing anything wrong, of course you are going to run into people who are not going to listen to you. Instead all they are going to take away from it is, that the PC crowd is a bunch of elitist (insert random insult).

 

The damage isn't just being caused by one side, it's being caused by both sides.

Also, it's not a meaningless opinion, and that is the type of attitude that causes people not to listen to each other. It's understandable that it's a huge issue to the authors, but they need to come to realize that it's not going to be that way for everyone. Not even all mod makers are in entire agreement. I may not be a mod maker anymore, but I am an artist and a game developer, so I am not new to these sorts of issues either.

 

Yes, I hate when things are taken from me, as I am sure everyone would be. However, when it comes to the internet, the way things are handled are very very different. The double standards that exist, confuses people. Hell, it even confuses me. Why is it ... I can go on the net and just grab any image and repost it to facebook? No one bats an eye lash. Why can people post music on youtube as long as they are not monetizing? We allow some things, but then condemn other things simply depending on the media it is. Of course people are going to be confused. Not to mention, many of those who are mod makers don't even realize how hypocritical they are being.

 

More often than not we shame companies for now allowing fans to redistribute content. we harp on them, and we act like they are the worst company in the world when they do this. Yet in this case money is in fact actually involved, so they have a better reason to be doing so, but we still go after them. Take Nintendo for example and their stance on youtube, and see all the crap they get for it.

 

These issues are not just black and white. They are not so simple as saying this is wrong and this is right, not with the way copyright has gone on the internet.

 

 

So let me be clear here on what I am saying. It's not just the thieves ruining the community, it's also the mod authors who don't know how to handle these things better or they have a very lack of understanding on stepping into a non creators perspective and how things have been recently with copyright.

 

 

I am no specifically sticking up for any side, I think both sides have good points, and both sides are handling it terribly.