On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39561535.

Tabub2001 wrote: Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

It doesn't matter. Bethesda could shut down the Nexus at any time they please with a single letter. All they have to do is make the decision, and I suspect that decision is coming eventually anyway. They clearly want to monetize mods and allowing the Nexus to exist would entirely cut them off from the PC market unless they convince mod authors to only post their mods to Bethesda.net, and we saw how well that went over with the Steam Workshop. Might as well let them know just how badly they f***ed up.

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

Let me see if I can take a shot at this one.

 

I am an artist. I love to paint and draw but it is a hobby not a career. I just like when people like them. So I paint a lovely scene of a church and country lane. I make them into a bunch of small prints and give them out on the street to whomever would like them. My name is at the bottom as all artist typically are. People are happy. I am happy. So I pack up my things and go home.

 

A few weeks later I walk by an art gallery and there is my print, I did not give the print to the gallery. I go in to talk to the gallery owner and they kinda brush me off even though I have proof the work is mine. I walk out upset and there is a large group of people pointing at the work and they look mad. One person yells, "That is the one that painted the cards like the picture! Get her!!" I then run for my life...possibly regretting having shared something I loved with others.

 

I now see the print everywhere. And most people no longer know I painted it. It is being used in all kinds of places I did not intend and I am not given credit for it.

 

So this is how I see the mod theft thing.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else.

 

Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion.

 

First part, no it isn't like a base for others to use. Many times a mod is a single, enclosed creative work. It isn't a connect-the-dots they give someone.

 

And it is great you don't care. You make something and share it then are ok with others doing whatever (and many mods are like this) then superior attitude. But your single opinion can not over-ride the hundreds of mod authors that do not feel the same. That expect they can share what they want, where they want and have it used in the way they intended. You may think this is shallow or naive or even an attitude of asshattery. Nonetheless there is not a single thing saying they can not do as they please with their mods and that the mods are, copyrighted to the mod author as soon as it breathes life on a medium it may be demonstrated.

 

It's similar. It's still an act of redistributing something without permission.

Also, my "single opinion" is not meant to over-ride anyone else's. It's called having a discussion and bringing light to sides some may not have thought about.

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39560020.

frogsot wrote: Maybe you can convince beth to make your site the official modding site for fallout 4 and skyrim? Unless off course they plan to bring back paid mods and would have to cut you in, or mostly you would refuse paid mods all together and they would go back to beth.net\

Lets face it. They plan on bringing paid mods to consoles. Why else would they put so much effort into this? Steam knows better now after what happened. Bethesda might not of learned its lesson. Console players wont protest paid mods since they never had them before now. Every game now has micro transactions, this is there way of making a lot more.

Making the Nexus "official" would require a lot of legalese and would essentially end up with Bethesda owning the Nexus. I don't want that. As you said, they're in it to make money - why would they allow that money to go to the Nexus if they didn't own it? Besides, Robin built this site from nothing, and miraculously, he doesn't want to make money off of it. Bethesda deserves to use it no more than they deserve to make money off of other peoples' mods.

[Zetsumi_Nihilus]

It's hardly just the mod system that's fallen victim to the 'release now, fix later' attitude. Bethesda have become increasingly complacent in general lately, content to push smaller amounts of content out with less polish in greater frequency. Now that the 'Horse Armour' business model has become the industry standard, I suppose there's little incentive for them to bother putting in any more effort then their competitors. At this point, it's almost a relief to hear they don't think they're up to the challenge of a Morrowind remake, as I doubt they'd manage to do it justice. They're just not up to making RPG's anymore anyway - given FO4 and Doom, it's becoming increasingly obvious that they're making a slow transition to smaller, easier and faster to produce FPS games over sprawling, open-world, highly moddable RPG's. Particularly now their plans to monetize modding via 'paid mods' have collapsed.

 

Ah well. You either go broke a great dev team, or live long enough to see yourself become EA, I suppose. A real pity.

 

If their recent attitude is anything to go by, I wouldn't expect sweeping improvements to their mod network, only fixes by demand or where necessary. They'll likely do something about the potential theft issue, if only because of the constant backlash it will generate until fixed, then they'll make some minor, quick and easy tweaks in an attempt to garner community favour.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

 

 

Let me see if I can take a shot at this one.

 

I am an artist. I love to paint and draw but it is a hobby not a career. I just like when people like them. So I paint a lovely scene of a church and country lane. I make them into a bunch of small prints and give them out on the street to whomever would like them. My name is at the bottom as all artist typically are. People are happy. I am happy. So I pack up my things and go home.

 

A few weeks later I walk by an art gallery and there is my print, I did not give the print to the gallery. I go in to talk to the gallery owner and they kinda brush me off even though I have proof the work is mine. I walk out upset and there is a large group of people pointing at the work and they look mad. One person yells, "That is the one that painted the cards like the picture! Get her!!" I then run for my life...possibly regretting having shared something I loved with others.

 

I now see the print everywhere. And most people no longer know I painted it. It is being used in all kinds of places I did not intend and I am not given credit for it.

 

So this is how I see the mod theft thing.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else.

 

Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion.

 

First part, no it isn't like a base for others to use. Many times a mod is a single, enclosed creative work. It isn't a connect-the-dots they give someone.

 

And it is great you don't care. You make something and share it then are ok with others doing whatever (and many mods are like this) then superior attitude. But your single opinion can not over-ride the hundreds of mod authors that do not feel the same. That expect they can share what they want, where they want and have it used in the way they intended. You may think this is shallow or naive or even an attitude of asshattery. Nonetheless there is not a single thing saying they can not do as they please with their mods and that the mods are, copyrighted to the mod author as soon as it breathes life on a medium it may be demonstrated.

 

It's similar. It's still an act of redistributing something without permission.

Also, my "single opinion" is not meant to over-ride anyone else's. It's called having a discussion and bringing light to sides some may not have thought about.

 

Unfortunately this isn't a new issue to the modding community. Now it just happens to involve Beth's official site. :(

[BuffHamster]

In response to post #39557130.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

Simply put, it is morally wrong to copy and/or distribute an Author's work against their wishes and/or claim it as their own work.

A very simple analogy is; if you spent months or years writing a book, then someone steals your book and notes, publishes it and either financially or reputation-ally benefits from this piracy of your hard work, you think this is okay? According to the anarchist element of the "anti-copyright" movement, the moment you finish typing the artistic work, it becomes "public property", freely available to all, ... and this is perfectly okay to do?

The answer is No, according to the majority of public opinion passed down through hundreds of years of debate, it is also morally wrong to pirate and distribute someone else's work. Why an author wishes to restrict access to their work is their business, it is not up to the pirate thief or the consumer.

Many claim that you can not steal something that is "free". This is a misinformed obfuscation of the term "free" in regards to authored custom content. It is only "free" to those who agree to 1) the terms set forth by the author of the work, and 2) the contractual terms that you previously agreed to of the hosting site.

The author has presented his work in good faith to those who download and use it and will follow the terms set forth. It isn't "free" as you have to agree to the author's terms. In this case, 0.00$ does not mean "free" as there are certain implied moral and legal obligations that you have to agree to in order to download and use said custom content.

For those advocating for Piracy of Property and claiming that it should be allowed, and irregardless of what "arguments" or mental gymnastics you use to justify said Piracy, you really need to go back and re-read the the Terms & Services contract agreement that you made with Robin Scott, Bethesda.net, and Zenimax.

 

Hmm, I don't think you really understood his post very well. You went into a lot of details on things I don't think he was really speaking about. The fact of the matter is, copyright laws, have been pretty controversial ever since new types of medias have been born. There is no shame in needing to update these laws to be more specific, which needs to happen.

As for your moral argument, sorry, but I don't view moral arguments as being valid simply because morality is very subjective.

For example, I most certainly believe it's morally wrong to steal, in the sense where an item is being taken or removed and the owner no longer has it. I also think it's morally wrong to take something and claim it as your own.

Where I think it begins to become a bit of a grey area is redistributing something that is already distributed for free on the net. I don't think it's right to do, but I also don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be. It's no different than copying a picture and posting it on facebook. If we where to call this immoral, then everyone is guilty of it 100%. We redistribute other peoples works all the time without permission.

This is why there are problems with the copyright law, because there are double standards. Technically all fan art is against copyright. Don't even get me started when people sell prints and such of characters owned by other companies. Most people these days think fair use protects them, but that isn't actually true. Fair use is very limited.

Nope, I understood his point of view very well, tyvm.

... redistributing something that is already distributed for free on the net.

It appears that you didn't understand what I wrote.
Financially it may cost nothing, but there is also an implied contractual obligation imparted on the user by the author and the host site, that the author's work may not be redistributed freely without the author's explicit consent. This is the main crux of the problem discussed here without the various obfuscations and mental gymnastics people have come up with to justify this practice.

Theft of property for any reason is taught as being not only illegal, but morally wrong. This is very clear and is not subjective to the individual. It is most certainly not a "grey" area.

Breach of Contract, is also wrong. The user agrees to the terms before being allowed to download and use the author's property. This too, is not a "grey" area.
A product may be free of financial encumbrance to the user, but the product is still "conditionally" given, ie; there are strings attached.

Unless you have actually created custom game content and found said content distributed under another name on a different site, you will never completely understand why the authors are so fully and completely against this piracy of their work.

(I have submitted no content for FO4, but have seen my work stolen from Simtropolis (me=North Country Dude) and posted to EA's SimCity 4 Exchange site while the perpetrator claimed it as his/her own work. I tried to get EA to take it down, but they ignored me. Thankfully, EA's SimCity Exchange site is no longer around.)

I would like to add that many have stated that just because "piracy" is inevitable, the authors should just apathetically accept it. This too, is wrong on many levels and has only served to create even more stringent DRM measures imposed by authors and their publishers.

There are, of course, even more graphic examples in history of such apathy, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

While piracy can never be completely eliminated, it can be "thwarted" and measures taken to minimize it's impact. Making the work of property theft as difficult as actually creating the original work will deter all but the most determined criminal, and even in that underworld, nothing is free.
Edited June 19, 2016 by BuffHamster

[RattleAndGrind]

The act of creation is an experience like none other. I create a thing and a piece of me exists in the thing.

 

Sometimes I wish to share the thing with those I hold as friends knowing they will cherish the thing which holds a piece of me.

 

But an interloper comes. He takes the thing. He cares not that he has taken a piece of me. He shares the thing with others who care not that they have taken a piece of me.

 

I address the interloper and he hears me not. I address those who have obtained the thing the interloper took, but they hear me not.

 

Some say that the interloper did no harm. Some say that the interloper is entitled to the thing. Others say that I am at fault because the interloper took the thing.

But I say, "The interloper has cheapened and sullied the thing. The interloper been cheapened and sullied the piece of me in the thing . The interloper has cheapened and sullied my joy of creation."

 

The interloper took so much more than just the thing.

 

And I cannot get it back, the things which the interloper took.

 

R&G

Edited June 19, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[aok]

In response to post #39563100.

RattleAndGrind wrote:

The act of creation is an experience like none other. I create a thing and a piece of me exists in the thing.

 

Sometimes I wish to share the thing with those I hold as friends knowing they will cherish the thing which holds a piece of me.

 

But an interloper comes. He takes the thing. He cares not that he has taken a piece of me. He shares the thing with others who care not that they have taken a piece of me.

 

I address the interloper and he hears me not. I address those who have obtained the thing the interloper took, but they hear me not.

 

Some say that the interloper did no harm. Some say that the interloper is entitled to the thing. Others say that I am at fault because the interloper took the thing.

But I say, "The interloper has cheapened and sullied the thing. The interloper been cheapened and sullied the piece of me in the thing . The interloper has cheapened and sullied my joy of creation."

 

The interloper took so much more than just the thing.

 

And I cannot get it back, the things which the interloper took.

 

R&G

Dramatically stated but true. It's a matter of respect for the creator.
However you can't teach someone a thing they do not have. I can only assume their parents failed teaching them such a basic concept of humanity.

[mmaniacBG]

In response to post #39561535. #39561945 is also a reply to the same post.

Tabub2001 wrote: Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

Tantalus010 wrote: It doesn't matter. Bethesda could shut down the Nexus at any time they please with a single letter. All they have to do is make the decision, and I suspect that decision is coming eventually anyway. They clearly want to monetize mods and allowing the Nexus to exist would entirely cut them off from the PC market unless they convince mod authors to only post their mods to Bethesda.net, and we saw how well that went over with the Steam Workshop. Might as well let them know just how badly they f***ed up.

The moment they "shut" Nexus is the moment they lose face to any coscious person who has ever downloaded a mod for any of their games!

They are detached, but they are not stupid. I think this site is safe because of that. I can imagine what would happen, if they did it: mods that intentionally break your game, open insults to Bethesda's employees, mods taken down by the authors as an act of protest, low reviews for their games.

Bethesda would love to have monopoly over the mods for their games, but I think it's safe to assume they care about the future sales of their games more.

[ragnarpa]

Nexus mods are really good and ppl need to stop stealing its wrong and against the law if ppl arent smart enough to make there own then they need to stop trying and give up