On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[greywaste]

In response to post #39466970.

maybenexttime wrote: This is what happens when you get daddy mad!

That was a wonderful speech, brought tears to my eyes.

Coming from somebody who's avatar features the Nova StarCraft 3 model that was ripped and redistributed without permission (and widely begged for by the community that is so into permissions and rights) and then the post above talking about assets stolen from Blizzard. Perfect :wink:)

Edited June 22, 2016 by greywaste

[rslayer]

Sure, 10 or so years ago when Bethesda was a tiny, somewhat unknown company, they sided with mod authors and wanted to grow the community. I remember specifically how they sided with modders in the Oblivion mod-pack scandal.

 

But that time is long past. Bethesda is in full on maximum profit mode. Some will argue all businesses should always have that mentality. Mostly because those people are stupid. When someone is growing a business generally they have a passion for whatever their work is. There are many ways to make money, and nobody ever forces a startup to be in their specific field.

 

The original group at Bethesda was passionate about games and the Bethesda style of open world. Modding utility added to their vision. Probably they weren't completely sure how to fill the genre out, and so put effort in creating an environment and basic ideas, and then wanted to see if others could add onto it.

 

But after it became successful, that original group is probably gone or burned out, and the MBAs are now running the show. The passion is gone and they only see dollar signs. And that is why you should never pledge your allegiance to any company, no matter how good they've been in the past. Just enjoy it when it's around.

 

The grand era of modding from Oblivion through Skyrim is officially over. FO4 started a new era. Less mods, more monetization. It was good while it lasted, but all things end eventually.

[Kizude]

I understand your point of view, but you must also understand them.

 

This is your community and you have a staff you trust that help you. Then you also have a good community, that are rightful and help you in everyway they can (reporting thieft for example).

 

There is mutual trust: you trust us, we trust you.

Nobody tries to make silly jokes reporting false thieft, and it's easy to track them.

And if somebody make a mistake a simple sorry will do most of the time.

 

However they are a company and must abide to rules. It's not simple as you say. While they use an unfreindly way to resolve the situation that is the way of the world.

I don't know how to explain myself because it's hard for me to make you understand what i want to convey since i'm looking for words i don't really remember in english...

 

They could do better, and that is right.

However mod thieft is a not a problem big enough for them to use too much personal, and the people that manage those problems is too little while the stolen mods are too many.

Maybe they aren't trying their best, but they are doing something to help the modders.

 

Maybe the solution isn't complaing to bethesda, but doing something to protect the IP, like making mods that requires an external software like SKSE that couldn't be used on console if you want to prevent that your mod is being hosted on consoles.

 

I don't really care for my mods, since i make them for me and nobody use them anyway. But i understand that people make them while spending much time and effort so they must do something to protect themself without crying over the split milk.

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Kizude

[nicknameltg]

I might sound like a troll, but can we gamers sew bethe or zenimax for they tyranny actions?

 

Gamers put 100times more efforts towards TES games than beth or zenimax.

Gamers made TES games 100times more enjoyable than the official beth and zeni staff.

 

I wish we could take their rights to control tes games, because all they do is trouble. I wish there would something possible to do for the goal of either:

1)stopping beth laziness towards some important matters, that are addressed in this thread

2)making beth feel guilty or look bad, thus increasing chances for us to see positive activity towards issues made in this thread..

 

I wish life would be simpler

[dobmc]

In response to post #39653315.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935 are all replies on the same post.

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

Wait a minute.

midtek wrote: A side note:

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.

dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.

midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.

MajorFreak wrote: i think the question a lot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)

phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.

MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
and
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation

phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.

MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)

dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.

MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?

Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.

MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.

dobmc wrote: @Kalell
It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and a lot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

Edit:
Me too lol

Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol

The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

 

Actually, we already have an example of paid mods that exists. Minecraft allows it and some mod makers sell their mods. However ... you typically never hear about them because their popularity is non existent. I am sure the mod developers do earn money that way, but I doubt most people would be willing to buy mods.

The reason this is the case is because ... there is no try before you can buy with paid mods. Yet, typically when I mod a game, I often try and remove mods frequently. If many mod makers did use such a pay system, it would literally mean having to buy a mod you may not even end up liking. quality can be a real big issue when it comes to mods.

Something can sound really cool, and then while using the mod, it just doesn't work well.

I don't think paid mods will get very far even if it's tried again and it sticks. Mod makers may give it a try, but when they see they are making hardly anything and their mods popularity just tanks if it even ever becomes popular at all, they will likely release their mods for free in the future. However, there will also be the cost that it will harm their reputation with some people.

I personally, don't think it's worth the aggravation it would bring.

Edit: Also mod makers can do what they love for a job, it's called being a game developer. They could even create their own games as a side while doing mods. They would get a lot of attention too from Gopher probably as he has already spot lighted a couple games being made by mod developers.

@H3llbAne
I personally don't think that the split was the largest concern, but it was definitely a huge issue. Bethesda received a staggering 45% of the cut, Valve 30%, and the modders a mere 25%. Don't forget that there was a 100USD requirement that the mods needed to accumulate before the mod authors actually profited from their creations.

Then we have examples of Bethesda's stellar moderation with the rising issue of mod theft. Spoiler alert: It's pretty bad.

Also don't forget that mod 'pirating' will become a thing. Good luck trying to wrap your mind around that whole can of worms, haha.

[LeviathanXX]

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935, #39652590 are all replies on the same post.

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

Wait a minute.

midtek wrote: A side note:

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.

dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.

midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.

MajorFreak wrote: i think the question alot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)

phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.

MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
and
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation

phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.

MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)

dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.

MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?

Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.

MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.

dobmc wrote: @Kalell
It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and alot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

Edit:
Me too lol

Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol

H3llbAne wrote: The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

'Curated' mods were ones specifically chosen by Bethesda to be spotlighted and bundled together into a 'mod pack'. The mod pack itself was some £30 if I remember correctly. The biggest issue it had was that for £30 it did not offer £30 worth of content as it consisted mostly just of individual weapons, flashy and well made but nothing that actually 'Added' to the game, no levelled list integrations, no new areas or quests, just craftable weaponry. It did include a couple of other types of mods that I wont name but still it was not 'Expansion level' of content.

[Captainradish]

In response to post #39653315. #39659995 is also a reply to the same post.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935 are all replies on the same post.

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

Wait a minute.

midtek wrote: A side note:

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.

dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.

midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.

MajorFreak wrote: i think the question a lot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)

phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.

MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
and
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation

phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.

MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)

dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.

MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?

Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.

MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.

dobmc wrote: @Kalell
It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and a lot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

Edit:
Me too lol

Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol

The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

 

Actually, we already have an example of paid mods that exists. Minecraft allows it and some mod makers sell their mods. However ... you typically never hear about them because their popularity is non existent. I am sure the mod developers do earn money that way, but I doubt most people would be willing to buy mods.

The reason this is the case is because ... there is no try before you can buy with paid mods. Yet, typically when I mod a game, I often try and remove mods frequently. If many mod makers did use such a pay system, it would literally mean having to buy a mod you may not even end up liking. quality can be a real big issue when it comes to mods.

Something can sound really cool, and then while using the mod, it just doesn't work well.

I don't think paid mods will get very far even if it's tried again and it sticks. Mod makers may give it a try, but when they see they are making hardly anything and their mods popularity just tanks if it even ever becomes popular at all, they will likely release their mods for free in the future. However, there will also be the cost that it will harm their reputation with some people.

I personally, don't think it's worth the aggravation it would bring.

Edit: Also mod makers can do what they love for a job, it's called being a game developer. They could even create their own games as a side while doing mods. They would get a lot of attention too from Gopher probably as he has already spot lighted a couple games being made by mod developers.

dobmc wrote: @H3llbAne
I personally don't think that the split was the largest concern, but it was definitely a huge issue. Bethesda received a staggering 45% of the cut, Valve 30%, and the modders a mere 25%. Don't forget that there was a 100USD requirement that the mods needed to accumulate before the mod authors actually profited from their creations.

Then we have examples of Bethesda's stellar moderation with the rising issue of mod theft. Spoiler alert: It's pretty bad.

Also don't forget that mod 'pirating' will become a thing. Good luck trying to wrap your mind around that whole can of worms, haha.

Paid modding is certainly a thing in Flight Simulator X. There are many companies that make a living creating mods for FSX. It actually seems to work well as there are free mods, but also a lot of very high quality paid along with reviews, demos, and, yes, piracy.

[boomerizer]

 

In response to post #39653315. #39659995 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

Brabbit1987 wrote:

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

 

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

 

Wait a minute.

midtek wrote: A side note:

 

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.

dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.

midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.

MajorFreak wrote: i think the question a lot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)

phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

 

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.

MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

 

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

and

https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

 

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation

phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

 

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak

I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

 

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.

MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)

dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.

MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

 

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

 

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?

Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

 

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak

The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

 

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.

MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

 

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.

dobmc wrote: @Kalell

It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and a lot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

 

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

 

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

 

Edit:

Me too lol

Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

 

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol

The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

 

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

 

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

Actually, we already have an example of paid mods that exists. Minecraft allows it and some mod makers sell their mods. However ... you typically never hear about them because their popularity is non existent. I am sure the mod developers do earn money that way, but I doubt most people would be willing to buy mods.

 

The reason this is the case is because ... there is no try before you can buy with paid mods. Yet, typically when I mod a game, I often try and remove mods frequently. If many mod makers did use such a pay system, it would literally mean having to buy a mod you may not even end up liking. quality can be a real big issue when it comes to mods.

 

Something can sound really cool, and then while using the mod, it just doesn't work well.

 

I don't think paid mods will get very far even if it's tried again and it sticks. Mod makers may give it a try, but when they see they are making hardly anything and their mods popularity just tanks if it even ever becomes popular at all, they will likely release their mods for free in the future. However, there will also be the cost that it will harm their reputation with some people.

 

I personally, don't think it's worth the aggravation it would bring.

 

Edit: Also mod makers can do what they love for a job, it's called being a game developer. They could even create their own games as a side while doing mods. They would get a lot of attention too from Gopher probably as he has already spot lighted a couple games being made by mod developers.

dobmc wrote: @H3llbAne

I personally don't think that the split was the largest concern, but it was definitely a huge issue. Bethesda received a staggering 45% of the cut, Valve 30%, and the modders a mere 25%. Don't forget that there was a 100USD requirement that the mods needed to accumulate before the mod authors actually profited from their creations.

 

Then we have examples of Bethesda's stellar moderation with the rising issue of mod theft. Spoiler alert: It's pretty bad.

 

Also don't forget that mod 'pirating' will become a thing. Good luck trying to wrap your mind around that whole can of worms, haha.

Paid modding is certainly a thing in Flight Simulator X. There are many companies that make a living creating mods for FSX. It actually seems to work well as there are free mods, but also a lot of very high quality paid along with reviews, demos, and, yes, piracy.

 

 

Sure, there are paid mods available on other PC games. Mods on PC are almost always guaranteed to work. On console, they are not. Nobody is going to risk spending a dollar or 10 on something that may not work at all. Or even on something they may only use for like, a sitting. I would never pay for a mod-- I would donate, but never pay upfront for one.

 

There may be people out there that would, indeed, pay for mods, and I'm certain if mod developers were making enough, they would love to sell their mods, too. As it stands, though? I don't see anybody benefiting from a paid mods system, unless Bethesda themselves wanted to create some sort of Quality Control team for the modding community via Bethesda.net, much in the way that Apple has a team for the App Store. (Whereas Google Play and Windows app stores do not).

 

A mod you have to pay for would significantly decrease the amount of downloads/endorses/favorites that it has.

 

You think mod users are entitled brats now? Wait until they spend money on your mod. Then they'll be really be nasty to you when the mod doesn't work as intended. Your reputation will suffer. Your downloads/endorse/favorites will suffer. The stress will break you.

 

I don't think Bethesda will take this paid mods business seriously. They want to charge, sure, but in the end, they have to know that if it didn't work on Steam Workshop, it's not going to work on Bethesda.net simply because they cannot (or will not) guarantee quality.

[dobmc]

In response to post #39666895.

boomerizer wrote:

 

In response to post #39653315. #39659995 is also a reply to the same post.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935 are all replies on the same post.

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

Wait a minute.

midtek wrote: A side note:

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.

dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.

midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.

MajorFreak wrote: i think the question a lot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)

phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.

MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
and
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation

phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.

MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)

dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.

MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?

Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.

MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.

dobmc wrote: @Kalell
It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and a lot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

Edit:
Me too lol

Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol

The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

Actually, we already have an example of paid mods that exists. Minecraft allows it and some mod makers sell their mods. However ... you typically never hear about them because their popularity is non existent. I am sure the mod developers do earn money that way, but I doubt most people would be willing to buy mods.

The reason this is the case is because ... there is no try before you can buy with paid mods. Yet, typically when I mod a game, I often try and remove mods frequently. If many mod makers did use such a pay system, it would literally mean having to buy a mod you may not even end up liking. quality can be a real big issue when it comes to mods.

Something can sound really cool, and then while using the mod, it just doesn't work well.

I don't think paid mods will get very far even if it's tried again and it sticks. Mod makers may give it a try, but when they see they are making hardly anything and their mods popularity just tanks if it even ever becomes popular at all, they will likely release their mods for free in the future. However, there will also be the cost that it will harm their reputation with some people.

I personally, don't think it's worth the aggravation it would bring.

Edit: Also mod makers can do what they love for a job, it's called being a game developer. They could even create their own games as a side while doing mods. They would get a lot of attention too from Gopher probably as he has already spot lighted a couple games being made by mod developers.

dobmc wrote: @H3llbAne
I personally don't think that the split was the largest concern, but it was definitely a huge issue. Bethesda received a staggering 45% of the cut, Valve 30%, and the modders a mere 25%. Don't forget that there was a 100USD requirement that the mods needed to accumulate before the mod authors actually profited from their creations.

Then we have examples of Bethesda's stellar moderation with the rising issue of mod theft. Spoiler alert: It's pretty bad.

Also don't forget that mod 'pirating' will become a thing. Good luck trying to wrap your mind around that whole can of worms, haha.

Paid modding is certainly a thing in Flight Simulator X. There are many companies that make a living creating mods for FSX. It actually seems to work well as there are free mods, but also a lot of very high quality paid along with reviews, demos, and, yes, piracy.

 

 

Sure, there are paid mods available on other PC games. Mods on PC are almost always guaranteed to work. On console, they are not. Nobody is going to risk spending a dollar or 10 on something that may not work at all. Or even on something they may only use for like, a sitting. I would never pay for a mod-- I would donate, but never pay upfront for one.

 

There may be people out there that would, indeed, pay for mods, and I'm certain if mod developers were making enough, they would love to sell their mods, too. As it stands, though? I don't see anybody benefiting from a paid mods system, unless Bethesda themselves wanted to create some sort of Quality Control team for the modding community via Bethesda.net, much in the way that Apple has a team for the App Store. (Whereas Google Play and Windows app stores do not).

 

A mod you have to pay for would significantly decrease the amount of downloads/endorses/favorites that it has.

 

You think mod users are entitled brats now? Wait until they spend money on your mod. Then they'll be really be nasty to you when the mod doesn't work as intended. Your reputation will suffer. Your downloads/endorse/favorites will suffer. The stress will break you.

 

I don't think Bethesda will take this paid mods business seriously. They want to charge, sure, but in the end, they have to know that if it didn't work on Steam Workshop, it's not going to work on Bethesda.net simply because they cannot (or will not) guarantee quality.

"Sure, there are paid mods available on other more dated PC games with significantly smaller communities"
ftfy

[GamerPoets]

In response to post #39467495. #39507160, #39508060, #39508150, #39509035, #39511705, #39513590, #39513965, #39514025, #39514065, #39514440, #39515975, #39523015, #39583820, #39648355 are all replies on the same post.

GamerPoets wrote: This is something that I shared in a different forum/site and while that topic was slightly different it was still brought about because of the topic here. I thought I'd paste what I wrote here for those of you who care to read it.
------------------

This is a generalized statement. I have no problem talking directly to individuals if I feel that I need to lol, so don't think that I'm beating around the bush. I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject at large. If I didn't respect everyone's comments thus far I wouldn't take the time to type this. There are some people that I have a lot of respect for who are posting in this topic, who have done a lot to help me on my modding journey and I wanted to share my thoughts with them.

What I feel this all comes down to is this...

Creative property in any form (music, television, paintings, mods) is one or more people devoting a large amount of their life (whether it's hours, weeks, months or years) to something that they believe in one way or another.

Regarding mods and nexus and other sites, there should definitely be some sort of check box or something that says "yes, allow others to use my mod as they wish" "no, you cannot upload it elsewhere" " after this amount of time you can... blah blah blah" or whatever.. you know? I also feel that once someone uploads a mod that shouldn't be able to just pull it away from those who use it by removing it (I'll say why at the end of this book I'm writing lol) But none of that exists yet as far as I know so it's a moot point.

So..

To guess at what someone else is feeling about this subject, if they have not said anything either way about it, (before disappearing or not) or to think that they "should" feel how you do on the subject (whether they actually do agree or not) is selfish, un-thoughtful and borderline narcissistic among other things. Words have definitions and regarding this situation to take someone else's work (and don't be fooled, because whether it is "fun" or not it is "work") is to be those words and that type of person. (The type of person that most people in this community want nothing to do with and to not be a part of. Which is the only reason why people like me even consider to continue being a part of it and to put so much effort into what we do. There is enough BS in "real life" that I don't need it to ooze into my passions or hobbies and many feel that way, too. The reason that many stick around the community, and continue to create mods and to support it, damn sure isn't the replay-ability of Skyrim for 5 years+lol).

Summary of all that: If you don't know how someone feels it's not your place to assume (that's with anything in life)...continuing on =)

If someone says that credit is enough then cool, credit them and do as you wish. But if someone states that they want their mods only on nexus then they should be respected. You don't know what creating that mod did for this person. It could have been their way to get through a tough time in life. It could have been something that they poured every piece of themselves into creatively to prove to themselves that they could do it. It could be a simple form of therapy or just a hobby. Perhaps the mod author has something against the other sites. Perhaps the mod author has a strong personal connection to nexus and they want to give back to it for whatever nexus "gave" to them personally when they needed something to be given to them. It's not your "right" to guess or to even be allowed to know how they feel unless they care to share their reasons with you.

When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them.

On the other hand, when someone makes a song and sells it (just an example) and puts it on the radio there are large amounts of people who will fall in love with it. Once you have created something and given it to the world it is no longer 100% the creators. It's just not. There's no two ways about it. When you allow someone else to develop an attachment to something (minor or large, emotional or whatever) that you have created you have entitled that person to be able to listen to it, watch it, or use it, whatever it is as often as they care too or need to. If the initial requirements were for that person to pay for it upfront so be it. If the wishes of this person were for you to only play with these works on a specific version of a game, then that is what they are. You don't need a law to tell you how not to be an A-hole. If you have the desire to bring that mod to a "new level" then "you" "need" to do the work and put that same care and effort into as the original creator did to both respect and honor it and not just "bootleg their CD" and give it out elsewhere... because when you do that you go from being a supporter who deserves you're own piece of what you fell in love with, regarding their work, to a hustler (which I know a great deal about in "real life" lol). A hustler who may not have only ruined this experience/passtime/hobby/passion/whatever that a mod author (person) once needed but you have potentially robbed them of their passion by tainting it with selfish actions. Who know's what creating these mods really allowed this person to get through in life. And if they are being a dick to others... have you heard how horrible people in comments can be and how annoying? I didn't create a video called "The (bad placed here word lol) Song" for nothing. Perhaps this experience has already been ruined for them and they only keep their mods up on nexus out of respect for some or with hopes of regaining the feeling that they once had for this community.

As I stated at the beginning of this long wall of text... "it comes down to this"... to be a decent human-being and to understand what it means to be one.

If anyone doesn't understand that (and the majority of what I have wrote) they have a lot to learn about this very short life that we are living. Not everyone who creates a mod views them as "trading cards".

Sure, modding is about having fun and sharing that fun with other people... TO YOU, that is what modding is =) ... and mostly to me = )... but that doesn't mean that our, my, or our thoughts and feelings allow us to take something that we didn't create and to do what we wish with it. Mods may be pass-times and ways to not be bored for some but for others they are life saving acts of creativity or monuments of personal growth.

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after typing this all out there was a comment that had been written in between and I liked what was said as it helped to define the point even further

Anonymous Poster: "All I’m saying is...I do not think Leonardo da Vinci has a right to say that no alterations of the Mona Lisa can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to."

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Me: I like the Mono Lisa statement. You're right and people DO modify the Mono Lisa all of the time. However, they aren't allowed to simply paint over the original copy. They have to either recreate it from scratch and make adjustments as they go or use a photocopy of some sorts, but still, it's not the original version... not to mention that Leo has been long dead and his emotional attachments to his work are probably justifiably assumed to no longer be what they once were... however, we still do everything that we can to protect and honor the original... what a sexy lady she is lol

Goodnight.

jace14 wrote: if bumps are allowed in this forum, here is a bump

CaladanAnduril wrote: Str8 to the point ! Bravo !

boomerizer wrote: I second this bump.

And to further, it's not that I don't appreciate the modders that create the work.
I just don't hold any real care about the origin. Only that the mod that I see is available for use. I don't know many modders by name. Even for the mods that I absolutely love-- Skyrim ones, specifically. I know Azar but that is only because each mod ends with "by Azar". Beyond that. I don't know who made Falskaar. I don't know who made Forgotten City. I don't know who made Better Shaped Weapons. But I absolutely love these mods for Skyrim.

For Fallout 4, I use NCR Veteran Ranger Armor, Patriotic Shield and Commonwealth Cuts. I don't know the names of the modders. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate that they are available to me. Two of those three mods aren't available on Xbox though. And that makes me a sad panda.

That said, NCR Veteran Ranger armor WAS at one point available in a mod pack (Spawn Items) that allowed a user to spawn items from the game, as well as included others' mods, including NCR VRA. The author of Spawn Items did not credit the mod author of NCRVRA and to me, I can't really see why they are upset because once uploaded to the internet, you should want your work distributed. ( I mean does it really matter WHO downloads it? Just that someone is enjoying it?)

I mean, I don't know the name of the cook that makes my gourmet burgers at BT's or Five Guys or wherever I order my burgers from. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the burger delivered to me by the waiter/waitress. We thank the waiter/waitress when the food is brought to us, but the person that actually MADE the burger goes thankless.

Think that makes any more sense? I mean, seems relevant to me..

arenthefox wrote: My eyes hurt from staring at this post, but I agree with everything. Of course, you said it a lot better and nicer than I'd ever be able to.

Kalell wrote: When someone creates a mod I like I always check to see what the username of the person is when I go back to endorse the file. I've made a few mods myself and I know how much time and effort goes into making them. Checking to see what the authors name is is the least I can do in return for them sharing their work, and it will help me recognize anything else they do in the future. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know the name of someone that worked really hard on something they liked and uploaded it for people to use for free.

boomerizer wrote: For the same reason I don't bother with the credits at the end of a TV Show, Movie, or Game.

PinkSamantha wrote: "When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them."

Couldn't say it better myself.

And, uh... Mono Lisa? As in, Non-Stereo Lisa? I hope it's just a typo.

But seriously, thank you very much for the opinion.

PinkSamantha wrote: edit: damn, double post. If Robin, Dante, SirSalami or any staff is around, would you mind to remove this post? Thank you very much and sorry for the trouble.

Kalell wrote: So you just don't care to know who the people are that make the entertainment you enjoy, so long as they are allowing you to use it? In the case of media that you pay for I understand that, but recognition is the only thing mod authors get.

PinkSamantha wrote: @Kalell
Just ignore him.
And thanks for the opinion. Completely agreed with you.

boomerizer wrote: Well, in the case of TV and Movies, its more or less "I don't know this person." Like, do I really need to know who the gaffer is?

I like paying attention to voice actors, in games. Thats about the extent of my attention to credits. I don't really look at coders, QA testers, artists etc. Nobody knows who they are, except them, and the people that they worked with. Your average consumer isn't going to know them, and isn't going to go Google searching the persons life story.

Doesn't mean they aren't appreciated in assisting in bringing us this entertainment. Sound quality wouldn't be very good if the gaffer didn't hold that stick up for hours at a time.

Likewise, with Mods, I presume my download and continued use of the mod would be appreciation enough.

GamerPoets wrote: Dolby 1.1

SjoertJansen wrote: Hey man, apologies for reading your comment so late. Very eloquently written and very true.

It's a nice piece that goes to the core of it without the, quite frankly, brainless flame throwing that is and has been going on in this comment section. I form strong opinions on these topics, as you know, but I generally keep quiet until the raving madness has subdued a little, because when I start I tend to ramble on for a long time.

For some reason people tend to lower themselves to a standard that goes below that of the "hustlers" discussed... It always puzzles me...

This community exists thanks to the creativity of many mod authors, but as I said before, the majority is a user, not creator, their role in this community is often underestimated. Still, one cannot deny that an ever growing fraction of the user base feels entitled beyond their, sometimes legal, rights.
It is hard to stop or prevent the theft of mods, even with active moderation in place it will be hard to tame, we shall see.

Whatever will become of console modding or modding in general, whether we think it good or bad...Or both. Change has come, and will continue. We can fight it, and gain nothing and loose a lot... Or we can adept and make our best efforts to turn it into something positive. The outcry of mad mobs may have delayed the inevitable coming of paid mods (thankfully), but we sure did pay a price ;), as always. This battle is no different...

-Joe

MajorFreak wrote: and honor bump, because i know others would want to know what GamerPoets said about this without going 8 pages into a 31 page comment section

=)

I feel that this community is probably one of, if not thee strongest online communities. There are a good deal of people who use mods who have no clue what I mean when I say that and that's "okay".

Keep doing what you love to do. Don't let others intentions or miss-intentions bring you down. "Act" when you "need" to and step back accordingly and we'll adapt and move forward one way or another.