Boycott Beth.net

[Arthmoor]

But do you truly disagree that Bethesda's involvement has only been trouble?

Yes. I disagree. If they were truly the troublemakers you seem to say they are, it would be obvious as hell by now.

 

I may very well be reading the wrong web pages, but Bethesda's new plan of attack in the modding scene is ringing all sorts of alarm bells for me and plenty of others.

You're reading the wrong webpages. :tongue:

 

Why would they bother to get involved in something that doesn't need them if not to take control and eventually profit from it?

News flash: They've been involved since Morrowind. They provide the very tools we all need to mod their games as extensively as we do. (let's not quibble about meshes though, you know what I mean here)

 

So far all their involvement has done to the modding community is cause damage as far as I can see, what with luring authors away from the Nexus last time and causing them now to hide their work for fear it will be stolen.

No. The only damage I see being done is by posts like yours, or antics like Darren's. The rest of us are trying to work with them instead of against them to get things to improve. Boycotts are not the answer to anything. They pay no attention to such silliness.

 

I can't assure you of anything as I don't know their minds any better than anyone else. Which is why I don't go around posting rant threads about paranoid issues brought up by the 4Chan side of the internet. Conspiracy theories about the evil Todd and his nefarious plans need to stay there and not be propagated all over the web as though they're the truth. Cause they're simply not.

 

Yes, I've made no secret about the fact that I'd like to have the option for paid mods to return. It's not Bethesda who damaged the community. The community, such as it is, did that to itself through infighting and spreading false information. The majority of us who either supported the system or didn't care enough simply didn't speak up when we should have and that led to Gabe's ego shutting the whole thing down. Bethesda took note. They're moving their official support for mods away from Valve so that Valve can't undermine their attempts in the future. It's a net plus for everyone.

 

As far as console mods, I think it's great they're getting them. I don't buy into this PC master race crap that seems so pervasive here. It serves no purpose other than to sow division. Yes, the hardware is garbage and gaming in general is still impacted by this, but the PEOPLE using those systems are not to blame for any of that.

 

The other irony here is that despite all the grousing PC players are doing, the download numbers betray a truth: Even PC players are using Bethesda.net more than Nexus. The UFO4P has more downloads and views than it does here, by a significant enough number to matter. This isn't a bad thing either. It means people are simply choosing what's convenient for them, and I see nothing wrong with that.

[Mitigate]

 

But do you truly disagree that Bethesda's involvement has only been trouble?

Yes. I disagree. If they were truly the troublemakers you seem to say they are, it would be obvious as hell by now.

 

I may very well be reading the wrong web pages, but Bethesda's new plan of attack in the modding scene is ringing all sorts of alarm bells for me and plenty of others.

You're reading the wrong webpages. :tongue:

 

Why would they bother to get involved in something that doesn't need them if not to take control and eventually profit from it?

News flash: They've been involved since Morrowind. They provide the very tools we all need to mod their games as extensively as we do. (let's not quibble about meshes though, you know what I mean here)

 

So far all their involvement has done to the modding community is cause damage as far as I can see, what with luring authors away from the Nexus last time and causing them now to hide their work for fear it will be stolen.

No. The only damage I see being done is by posts like yours, or antics like Darren's. The rest of us are trying to work with them instead of against them to get things to improve. Boycotts are not the answer to anything. They pay no attention to such silliness.

 

I can't assure you of anything as I don't know their minds any better than anyone else. Which is why I don't go around posting rant threads about paranoid issues brought up by the 4Chan side of the internet. Conspiracy theories about the evil Todd and his nefarious plans need to stay there and not be propagated all over the web as though they're the truth. Cause they're simply not.

 

Yes, I've made no secret about the fact that I'd like to have the option for paid mods to return. It's not Bethesda who damaged the community. The community, such as it is, did that to itself through infighting and spreading false information. The majority of us who either supported the system or didn't care enough simply didn't speak up when we should have and that led to Gabe's ego shutting the whole thing down. Bethesda took note. They're moving their official support for mods away from Valve so that Valve can't undermine their attempts in the future. It's a net plus for everyone.

 

As far as console mods, I think it's great they're getting them. I don't buy into this PC master race crap that seems so pervasive here. It serves no purpose other than to sow division. Yes, the hardware is garbage and gaming in general is still impacted by this, but the PEOPLE using those systems are not to blame for any of that.

 

The other irony here is that despite all the grousing PC players are doing, the download numbers betray a truth: Even PC players are using Bethesda.net more than Nexus. The UFO4P has more downloads and views than it does here, by a significant enough number to matter. This isn't a bad thing either. It means people are simply choosing what's convenient for them, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

So here is the Million Dollar question then... If paid mods reared their head again and you found you could make a profit for your work, would you abandon the Nexus and become exclusively beth.net? Would you sell out and do it even if they demanded you must be exclusively beth.net? Because that is ultimately the issue I have. I refused to use the Workshop last time and I refuse to use beth.net this time. So I would lose out on something I love due to Bethesda luring away the talent with the promise of coin. Something I have already paid for in the form of donations. I have donated about $40 to your work, and while that may not be all that much, I was happy to do it because people like you Arthmoor, are cornerstones of the modding community. Your contributions have turned amazing concepts from Bethesda into actual playable games. For people like you to sell out... That thought alone is enough for me to oppose anything that threatens the working system we already have here at the Nexus. And sadly, this is exactly what began to happen last time when we nearly lost SKYUI and others to the Workshop.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Mitigate

[PoliteRaider]

 

The other irony here is that despite all the grousing PC players are doing, the download numbers betray a truth: Even PC players are using Bethesda.net more than Nexus. The UFO4P has more downloads and views than it does here, by a significant enough number to matter. This isn't a bad thing either. It means people are simply choosing what's convenient for them, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

I don't know how much of it is convenience and how much is simply that Nexus, despite its massive size, is still not known by everyone.

 

I bought Oblivion and Skyrim for the X-box (even bought a second hand X-box 360 purely to play skyrim on it) and although I knew that these 'mod' things existed I wasn't terribly interested in them. I didn't know how you'd get them or where. It was only because several friends of mine knew about modding and got me to watch Gopher's beginner's tutorial videos and showed me Nexus that I was even aware that this site existed. I had to buy a second copy of Skyrim for my PC in order to start modding.

 

For anyone that didn't have friends into modding they might not get involved. I mean, where do you even start? I love Nexus but it's not like one look at the page shows you how to begin. Plus it doesn't put its best foot forwards when the first thing you see on some of the pages is hot-files full of some very sexualized pictures.

 

But seeing patch notes saying "We're adding modding to your game" and viewing a mods box in the main menu integrated into the game itself that's hosted from the game manufacturer's website? That's a far easier path for someone new to modding to go down. I doubt Nexus has lost a lot of people (although no doubt some) but rather instead I think that Bethesda.net is getting new people into modding. I have no numbers to prove it, just purely an educated guess.

 

Edit: Actually rereading it that sounds pretty convenient contradicting my first point somewhat. Although I think perhaps that's more initial convenience as opposed to long-term overall averaged convenience.

Edited July 16, 2016 by PoliteRaider

[Alexotero1219]

 

Yeah can we not turn this thread into a "free market" style debate?

 

There is literally no real way to apply this logic, in any form, to the developing situation here.

 

There is no supply for mods for starters, there is also is no competition. Bethesda would, presumably, try to lock down a modding market through IP laws (whether or not they would be able to is another question altogether). So yeah comparing paid mods to the "free market" is reaching to say the least.

 

Back on topic I think the OP kind of has a point. Even supporters of beth.net in this thread have to agree the website design is an utter disgrace and bethesda has shown little to no interest in improving it. You essentially have three options that I can see, boycott or lawsuit in attempt to pressure bethesda into making some fixes or sit back and do nothing while authors get their work stolen and the modding scene gets less and less active as people leave.

Now with the hyperbolic again.

Bethesda had an office floor of paid developers develop the engine, the game, the tools for years. Of course own the market. No one is stopping you from coding a mod from scratch without using the tools, but it will take you 20+ years to make it on your own. Bethesda provided 100% of the tools for you to make mods, they paid for its development, so they get to have a say where and how you can make money of your mod.

 

I dont understand how what I said was hyperbolic. I just said dont drag the discussion down the road you were dragging by using language like "free market". Modding as it is right now isnt really a "free market" and it wouldn't be a "free market" if bethesda allowed authors to sell their work. So you really shouldn't be using free market economics to justify your argument because it literally doesnt apply.

[PoliteRaider]

 

Bethesda had an office floor of paid developers develop the engine, the game, the tools for years. Of course own the market. No one is stopping you from coding a mod from scratch without using the tools, but it will take you 20+ years to make it on your own. Bethesda provided 100% of the tools for you to make mods, they paid for its development, so they get to have a say where and how you can make money of your mod.Now with the hyperbolic again.

 

Just to correct a technical detail, every single mod I've made that's currently available was made without touching a single one of Bethesda's tools.

[blackninja50]

@Arthmoor As far as I know Beth.net only tracks downloads not unique downloads. Seeing as mods up date automatically and thus increases the download counter every update I would say the Unofficial fallout 4 patch on beth.net actually has like a tenth or half the unique downloads as it says.

[Arthmoor]

So here is the Million Dollar question then... If paid mods reared their head again and you found you could make a profit for your work, would you abandon the Nexus and become exclusively beth.net?

You need to define what you mean by abandon first before I can give you a proper answer.

 

Instead, I'll simply tell you what I did the last time. All of my stuff that was already on Nexus stayed on Nexus (and the other free mirror sites too). The mod I put up for pay obviously could only go where that was allowed. I can't imagine the system would be any different if it comes up again.

 

Would you sell out and do it even if they demanded you must be exclusively beth.net?

You appear to be assuming a lot more than the facts are offering. For PAID mods, tell me, what other choice would I have but to put them on the platform where selling them is allowed? I don't consider it selling out. I consider it finally being able to make a legitimate bit of money for the work involved in modding. You calling it selling out more or less betrays your bias here, and a disgustingly negative one at that. One that does nothing but create division where none needs to exist.

 

I refused to use the Workshop last time and I refuse to use beth.net this time.

Your choice. The consequences to you are already known.

 

All I ask is that you and people who think like you stop acting like you have the right to take OUR choice away if it's offered again.

 

As I've stated before, and will continue to state, Bethesda is not dividing us. The community is doing that to itself. You contribute to that with every one of these negative posts.

 

@Arthmoor As far as I know Beth.net only tracks downloads not unique downloads. Seeing as mods up date automatically and thus increases the download counter every update I would say the Unofficial fallout 4 patch on beth.net actually has like a tenth or half the unique downloads as it says.

I don't think it's anywhere near that low for the reason others have hinted at. It's right there in the game's UI. Very easy to get at, very tempting to go looking, trivial to grab something while you're there. I dare say it works a great deal better than Steam Workshop ever did. Shouldn't really be surprising given that Bethesda is in control of both endpoints.

[Mitigate]

I just don't get it. There's nothing wrong with the Nexus, nothing wrong with the community and then Bethesda comes along and tries to govern where no governance is required. The Nexus has served me well these last couple years, I see no reason to use any other mod site. Especially one run by a company that just seems to be forcing their way in without taking responsibility for any issues that come up, like theft. They haven't got a concern in the World for the mod author or user. As long as they get what they want. If they did care, they'd see all they're doing is causing problems and stop trying to change things.

But what about third party applications like TESVEdit and SKSE? What about DynDOLOD and Automatic Variants? Things like that? All the best mods require third party software.

Arthmoor is right, the community is doing it to itself. This includes people on BOTH sides of the discussion. Those seeking to get paid and those getting star struck at the thought of Bethesda recognizing them. As well as those scratching their heads and wondering why things need to change at all. Meanwhile, Bethesda is sitting back laughing, not a care in the World.

Where have we seen this before? Thalmor (Bethesda). Stormcloaks and Imperials (Modding Community)...

Edited July 17, 2016 by Mitigate

[IglooGreenHouse]

I just don't get it. There's nothing wrong with the Nexus, nothing wrong with the community and then Bethesda comes along and tries to govern where no governance is required. The Nexus has served me well these last couple years, I see no reason to use any other mod site. Especially one run by a company that just seems to be forcing their way in without taking responsibility for any issues that come up, like theft. They haven't got a concern in the World for the mod author or user. As long as they get what they want. If they did care, they'd see all they're doing is causing problems and stop trying to change things.

 

But what about third party applications like TESVEdit and SKSE? What about DynDOLOD and Automatic Variants? Things like that? All the best mods require third party software.

 

Arthmoor is right, the community is doing it to itself. This includes people on BOTH sides of the discussion. Those seeking to get paid and those getting star struck at the thought of Bethesda recognizing them. As well as those scratching their heads and wondering why things need to change at all. Meanwhile, Bethesda is sitting back laughing, not a care in the World.

 

Where have we seen this before? Thalmor (Bethesda). Stormcloaks and Imperials (Modding Community)...

 

 

Putting my two cents in, I don't see how modders wanting to get paid has any relevance in the points you're making. Modders have wanted compensation since modding started, and it's a little short sighted to think that it contributes to a larger and more complicated problem.

 

The problem is that Bethesda hasn't yet created a perfect platform for modding. The Nexus has had years to work it's issues out, creating systems to ban mod stealers, police it's community, etc. Beth hasn't learned yet how to do these things, but in the short time that it's been available it's fixed a number of issues, and it'll fix a number more. Why do we need bethesda.net? I think we need it so that modders and mod users have another avenue to find and use mods. It creates competition for quality between the Nexus and Bethesda.net. Having one service isn't good, you end up with a front page full of CBBE's and water texture replacers. Maybe some users want a second opinion on what mods are out there.

[Ethreon]

Beth is not perfect. I dislike a lot of the things they do, and I think they do a perform a lot of idiotic steps. But boicoting them leads nowhere. They're not "out to get you", and they cannot close or put Nexus down (btw, can we stop with this dumb thing too? Nexus is more than bethesda games). They're not going to try either, since the suits don't fancy having to deal with angry mobs.

 

Now can we go back to making mods and sharing them? You can make your own and share them for free if you consider paid modding bad. Nobody forces you to make them cost money. And if the mod you want costs money, well, tough luck. You have to learn to live without it, as mods are definitely not a basic life need.

 

"Having one service isn't good, you end up with a front page full of CBBE's and water texture replacers. Maybe some users want a second opinion on what mods are out there."

 

Yea.. nah. That will take a while to settle, and there will be more than plenty of 5-min job mods out there. And let's not forget why CBBE won't go to consoles, ok?

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ethreon