War with N. Korea?

[HeyYou]

it doesn't take much of a bomb to trigger a fairly dramatic EMP event. A bomb as small as 10 kilotons could take out a good sized chunk of our electrical grid. Of course, that would have zero affect on our missiles, land-base, or sub-based. Detonating a nuke above the US would most certainly be considered an act of war, and we would most certainly retaliate. NK would essentially cease to exist. We may, or may not... use nukes in such a case.... but, even with conventional weapons, NK STILL would not win. Of course, neither would we......

[TheMastersSon]

Much of the above regarding EMPs is pure hogwash, but it's a perfect example of how James Woolsey and other lifelong fear mongering public teetsuckers have kept their own paychecks coming in for the last 70 years. Please read this and dispel at least a few of your Marvel Universe fantasies:

 

"Weapons have been developed to create the damaging effects of high-energy EMP. Misleading or incorrect information about such weapons, both real and fictional, have become known to the public by means of popular culture and some politicians' claims. Misleading information includes both exaggeration of EMP effects and downplaying the significance of the EMP threat."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

 

The simple truth is that our country's power grid is comprised of countless discrete segments, each with its own generation capacity. Also, due to Earth's curvature the effects from any single EMP can only be regional, e.g. a pulse at six miles altitude might have effects for a couple hundred miles at most etc. Still not any fun, but to claim "two-thirds of our country would die from starvation, disease and societal breakdown" from one EMP is beyond absurd and well into hysterical. Another simple truth is that our government is debating the hardening of our country's power grid, not to protect against EMP weapons but to protect against geomagnetic solar storms, which generate the same gamma radiation but in vastly greater quantities and for much longer periods of time.

 

EDIT: I was just asked in offsite mail if EMPs mean the tin-foil hat people were right. :D

Edited October 14, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[gnarly1]

 

Although China never joined the first Korean War, they did send pilots and troops I think.

They provided not some but most of the munitions to put 57,000+ of our kids to death in Vietnam. Nixon's response was to send Henry Kissinger to China to "open the gate" to the killers of our own children.

 

The US is the world's largest manufacturer of weapons and the Obama administration was responsible for brokering more weapons sales than any other administration since WW2. Do you think none of those weapons were used to kill people or that only US lives matter?

[cowgirl1776]

It's a terrible thing to say, but we should have gone to war with them in 2006. This was before they had submarines that were capable of launching ballistic missiles, ICBMs, and dozens of nuclear weapons. Now, should war ever resume, the price could be too terrible to imagine. Sanctions have not been as successful as we had hoped, China does not appear to have the influence it claimed over North Korea, and waiting could potentially lead to an even worse situation with a higher price. If we do go to war, the amount of force must be overwhelming - enough to neutralize their capacity to initiate fueling.

[TheMastersSon]

 

 

Although China never joined the first Korean War, they did send pilots and troops I think.

They provided not some but most of the munitions to put 57,000+ of our kids to death in Vietnam. Nixon's response was to send Henry Kissinger to China to "open the gate" to the killers of our own children.

 

The US is the world's largest manufacturer of weapons and the Obama administration was responsible for brokering more weapons sales than any other administration since WW2. Do you think none of those weapons were used to kill people or that only US lives matter?

 

True but you're arguing like a child imo. We support our ideological friends around the world, as did/does China and many or most other countries on Earth, and the PRC simply supported its ideological friend in the Vietnam conflict. The point isn't whether they should have provided arms to Vietnam, it's that they did provide them, and Nixon's response to this support and our own essential military defeat was to self-legmitimize his own existing, secret and illegal relationships with the PRC. Our country didn't even formally recognize or normalize relations with the PRC until EIGHT YEARS LATER. It was pure, catastrophic and fatal treason without a single vote of the American people, and it's been non-stop political and economic smoke and mirrors ever since from both of our major parties.

 

Your last accusation is especially ridiculous aimed at me, I've been writing and speaking publicly about that very issue for 40+ years now. As my posting history even on this site makes clear.

Edited October 15, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[gnarly1]

 

 

 

Although China never joined the first Korean War, they did send pilots and troops I think.

They provided not some but most of the munitions to put 57,000+ of our kids to death in Vietnam. Nixon's response was to send Henry Kissinger to China to "open the gate" to the killers of our own children.

 

The US is the world's largest manufacturer of weapons and the Obama administration was responsible for brokering more weapons sales than any other administration since WW2. Do you think none of those weapons were used to kill people or that only US lives matter?

True but you're arguing like a child imo.

Quite possibly. I find children's views at times to be remarkably observant and refreshing in their simplicity. You should try listening to them some time. It will no doubt improve your muddled reasoning and willingness to engage in logical fallacies substantially.

 

 

 

Your last accusation is especially ridiculous aimed at me, I've been writing and speaking publicly about that very issue for 40+ years now. As my posting history even on this site makes clear.

If you had been speaking publicly about the issue for 40+ years, you would be acutely aware that combatants in a war aren't 'put to death', which is a term normally used for a socially sanctioned death. In my experience, true experts rarely make such simple errors of syntax in their domains. Also, the fact that you think you're immune from reasonable rebuttal to your statements because you're a so-called expert strongly suggests to me that you've never seriously engaged with any opinions that might be contrary, and quite possibly fatal to your own. It's so easy to always be right when one lives in an echo chamber....

Edited October 15, 2017 by gnarly1

[TheMastersSon]

gnarly1, this forum is for issue debates, not personal attacks on fellow members. And at this point I'm shaking my head in wonder at the lack of moderation in this thread. For the last time I don't engage this personal stuff online and haven't for 20+ years.

[montky]

this is an interesting discussion

of geopol futures, and eschatology.

 

I note a clustering of geopol-realists in the discussions thus far,

and would note the potential for myopic-dystopic blik-en-gruppthinkken.

who knows what potential futures might be?

_{ie it's easy to forget the "laplace demon" when sitting and doing 'armchair punditry' on futures studies.}

 

I would prefer that diplomacy and ways around that cascading Seneca Cliff scenario were to be found.

"basketball diplomacy", bilateral relations, 'wildcards'... who knows.

There has to be a way to a win-win, and there are positive signs in bilateral relations...

we would do ourselves a disservice to discount "the swerve of history".

 

I also don't want to see humanity get stuck into the prisonner-dilemma, jevon's paradox etc.

or, suffer 'involuntary' TEOTWAWKI.

as Al Bartlett said: "Nature is cruel, it doesn't care one Iota about our ideology. it can only and will only choose from the right hand column".

 

on a macro-level, I am frustrated we would use what little resources we do have in such a way,

and at such a critical juncture. fissile materials could and ought be used for astromining,

to offset peak rare-earth metals.

We don't have to find the answer to the fermi-drake paradox, not this way.

there has to be a win-win, where we acknowledge stuff like individuality,

and ad coelum ad inferos etc... without needing MADD, CWCs or R2Prevent to do it.

 

nor, do we need a cosmopolitanism imposed -

we don't need to be told formally, that we're the only yet known sentience in the cosmos

all on the pale blue dot.

 

 

(memento mori. comprendi? ce sera ceras? que, sera^sera )

[gnarly1]

gnarly1, this forum is for issue debates, not personal attacks on fellow members. And at this point I'm shaking my head in wonder at the lack of moderation in this thread. For the last time I don't engage this personal stuff online and haven't for 20+ years.

 

 

True but you're arguing like a child imo

You are indeed a paragon of virtue and consistency who does not engage in 'this personal stuff'....

[TheMastersSon]

That was and still is my opinion of your argument/debate point. It is not a personal attack and has nothing to do with you personally. Also btw your response to my charge was "Quite possibly", so it couldn't have been far from true.

Edited October 15, 2017 by TheMastersSon