An update on Vortex development

[sopmac45]

In response to post #55167168. #55171963 is also a reply to the same post.

Charles17 wrote: As a NMM user I still have concerns on the virtual install implementation of the upcoming vortex mod manager. NMM has a tendency to store files from uninstalled data files, and attempt to re-implement them back into the game. As an example, 1 mod is deleted and replaced by another. When installing the newer mod the text box comes up saying "xxxxxxxxx already installed by xxxxxxx virtual install, do you wish to overwrite". Most of my changes I make in the game are because of conflicts of scripting, two mods attempting to utilize the same script simultaneously so one has to go. It is obvious that much effort is going into the creation of Vortex so perhaps my concern is unwarranted. Good luck on continued development and thank all of you for this project.

UhuruNUru wrote: For advanced modding the virtual system is totally broken, and I hope Tannin is aware of NMM inadequate functionality in this regard, as it's something MO has no trouble with.

Put simply NMM requires 100% control of your mods, with no 3rd party tool file creation.
Any 3rd party tools (like Bodyslide, FNIS, etc.),that adds or changes Data Folder files. They are not Virtualised, and NMM doesn't have any control over them.
Only what NMM creates does it manage, and I'm not even convinced it doeas that right.
These are files it will never manage, doesn't remove, with the mod and they become permenant additions to the Vanilla games files. Even if the mod that needed them is gone.

I'm not convinced any "Jack of All Games/Engines", can be a good advanced manager.
The need to work in the same basic way for all games, is in direct conflict with an advanced managers need to work with the specific design of one Game/Engine.

As an advanced mod user, for many games. The only managers that fit my requirements are those that "Master one Game/Engine".

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with NMM, if all you want is basic mod management, within one game folder, but only if you just use NMM for downloading a few basic mods, and aren't getting your hands dirty in the files.

NMM is an actual basic Mod Manager, and can manage mixed file modding, as well as Mod Isolation (like XCOM 2, Witcher 3, etc.). Unlike Steam Workshop, which pretends to do basic mod management, by restricting the allowed mods to just basic ones, mostly prepacked in a single file, and only downloads them to a folder.

When you start using mods that need to go outside that basicone folder system (like Data, Mods, etc), or need 3rd Party tools, is when you need a dedicated "Master of one Game/Engine" manager.

The biggest downside to NMM, is it has discouraged them from ever being started as a basic manager, and then evolving to become more advanced.
Until last month, no advanced manger existed for Witcher 3, because NMM did the basics, an earlier attempt, gave up due to this fact,
Then on 30th Sept this was uploaded to the Nexus.
The Witcher 3 Mod Manager by stefan3372

Right from that first release, it became the advanced manager for Witcher 3. Simply because it takes accoumnt of the needs of those advanced mods that install files outside the Mods folder.

Like MO, it also takes advantage of 3rd party tools for what they already do best, and makes sure their end results are managed correctly, unlike NMM.

If anybody can do Multi-game advanced management, in one manager, I'd back Tannin.
I'm just not convinced it can ever be adequately be done.
I don't see how the time, and dedication each Game/Engine requires, can be provided by such a small team, tasked with working on "All Games".

I do share your concern as well Charles17. There are other that I have like, if we will continue using LOOT to sort the load order, what will happen if we delete a mod mid game and add a new one, how many profiles we should able to have without screwing the game, what procedure to follow if we start a new game ( should we go nuke or not ? ), what will happen if we have to update a mod mid game ...
... but I am very sure that my concerns / questions are being brought to the table by the crew of 30 who are testing Vortex so Tannin should be able to fix / improve what we have. It won't make any sense to think that he will come up with a new program worse than that we have so we must trust him and wait for the results.
NMM is a pain in the butt regarding a lot of things and the whole idea is to fix it, make it better, reliable and introduce some functions from MO. I am very excited about Vortex because I think that we will have something that will really help us to play our games easier than before.

[Ethreon]

In response to post #55167168. #55171963, #55172063 are all replies on the same post.

Charles17 wrote: As a NMM user I still have concerns on the virtual install implementation of the upcoming vortex mod manager. NMM has a tendency to store files from uninstalled data files, and attempt to re-implement them back into the game. As an example, 1 mod is deleted and replaced by another. When installing the newer mod the text box comes up saying "xxxxxxxxx already installed by xxxxxxx virtual install, do you wish to overwrite". Most of my changes I make in the game are because of conflicts of scripting, two mods attempting to utilize the same script simultaneously so one has to go. It is obvious that much effort is going into the creation of Vortex so perhaps my concern is unwarranted. Good luck on continued development and thank all of you for this project.

UhuruNUru wrote: For advanced modding the virtual system is totally broken, and I hope Tannin is aware of NMM inadequate functionality in this regard, as it's something MO has no trouble with.

Put simply NMM requires 100% control of your mods, with no 3rd party tool file creation.
Any 3rd party tools (like Bodyslide, FNIS, etc.),that adds or changes Data Folder files. They are not Virtualised, and NMM doesn't have any control over them.
Only what NMM creates does it manage, and I'm not even convinced it doeas that right.
These are files it will never manage, doesn't remove, with the mod and they become permenant additions to the Vanilla games files. Even if the mod that needed them is gone.

I'm not convinced any "Jack of All Games/Engines", can be a good advanced manager.
The need to work in the same basic way for all games, is in direct conflict with an advanced managers need to work with the specific design of one Game/Engine.

As an advanced mod user, for many games. The only managers that fit my requirements are those that "Master one Game/Engine".

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with NMM, if all you want is basic mod management, within one game folder, but only if you just use NMM for downloading a few basic mods, and aren't getting your hands dirty in the files.

NMM is an actual basic Mod Manager, and can manage mixed file modding, as well as Mod Isolation (like XCOM 2, Witcher 3, etc.). Unlike Steam Workshop, which pretends to do basic mod management, by restricting the allowed mods to just basic ones, mostly prepacked in a single file, and only downloads them to a folder.

When you start using mods that need to go outside that basicone folder system (like Data, Mods, etc), or need 3rd Party tools, is when you need a dedicated "Master of one Game/Engine" manager.

The biggest downside to NMM, is it has discouraged them from ever being started as a basic manager, and then evolving to become more advanced.
Until last month, no advanced manger existed for Witcher 3, because NMM did the basics, an earlier attempt, gave up due to this fact,
Then on 30th Sept this was uploaded to the Nexus.
The Witcher 3 Mod Manager by stefan3372

Right from that first release, it became the advanced manager for Witcher 3. Simply because it takes accoumnt of the needs of those advanced mods that install files outside the Mods folder.

Like MO, it also takes advantage of 3rd party tools for what they already do best, and makes sure their end results are managed correctly, unlike NMM.

If anybody can do Multi-game advanced management, in one manager, I'd back Tannin.
I'm just not convinced it can ever be adequately be done.
I don't see how the time, and dedication each Game/Engine requires, can be provided by such a small team, tasked with working on "All Games".

sopmac45 wrote: I do share your concern as well Charles17. There are other that I have like, if we will continue using LOOT to sort the load order, what will happen if we delete a mod mid game and add a new one, how many profiles we should able to have without screwing the game, what procedure to follow if we start a new game ( should we go nuke or not ? ), what will happen if we have to update a mod mid game ...
... but I am very sure that my concerns / questions are being brought to the table by the crew of 30 who are testing Vortex so Tannin should be able to fix / improve what we have. It won't make any sense to think that he will come up with a new program worse than that we have so we must trust him and wait for the results.
NMM is a pain in the butt regarding a lot of things and the whole idea is to fix it, make it better, reliable and introduce some functions from MO. I am very excited about Vortex because I think that we will have something that will really help us to play our games easier than before.

Nobody making a mod manager per game is not really NMM's fault.
As for removing mods mid game.. well, generally don't do that regardless of manager. It's not a recommended thing to do.

At the end of the day, like it or not Vortex has to be able to manage all the game engines, paths, modding practices etc. It's probably why it takes so long, and it will probably have issues regardless simply due to the diverse nature of games here. But that's where the addon feature will help, as others can create their own with specific games in mind. Hopefully we'll all get to experiment and see after the new year.

[PeterMartyr]

There no such rule as: One Manager To Rule Them ALL!. I certainly don't, I use NMM & MO & Wrye & Manual. For different Games.

 

Oblivion & SSE = Wyre

TES5 = MO

Then some == NMM Legacy

W3 for Example = NMM

I use NMM as Torrent Engine for Downloading Mods when I am premium

 

just to name a few. I don't discriminate, I adapt, if you can't adapted, you have the wrong mentally for Modding, I am really looking to seeing Vortex, & what it brings to the Big Picture. Stop being needy, you can't mod if your needy, cause your the problem.

Edited November 12, 2017 by PeterMartyr

[BlueGunk]

In response to post #55117013. #55141193, #55144748 are all replies on the same post.

ozoak wrote:

 

In response to post #55070213. #55070518, #55075553, #55086123, #55089728, #55092388, #55093143 are all replies on the same post.

bchick1 wrote: IT'S FREE !!! I like free stuff !! I like free stuff even if it doesn't work ! why? because it's FREE ! FREE !!! FREE !!! Free is good! I will try FREE broken stuff ! Someone once gave me ... FREE ... a broken automobile. It didn't run but I could sit in it !! but it was FREE !! Whaddawewant? ?? FREE !!!


* quit complaining if you don't have to pay for it.

Ethreon wrote: Getting kicked in the face is free too, but I reckon you wouldn't want it to happen to you.

lued123 wrote: Okay, but FREE and OPTIONAL!

BadKappa wrote: Yea, but unless you have the option to accept that kick in the face, then you're making a common argumentative fallacy that has been degrading debate, specifically political, for a while now.

:wink:

ezfreee wrote: i'd gladly pay a LARGE amount to have a working version of MO for SSE. It's Tannin's fault for making MO in the first place. Maybe once he's done with Vortex we can pool some cash to have him finish MO2. :o

Mortercotic wrote: If vortex its done why should we need mo2?

Ethreon wrote: Some people seem stuck with their ideas. To them MO is the one and only manager.

Vortex for all intents and purposes, is MO2. No reason to continue work on MO2 exists.

 

 

Except that Vortex for all practical purposes doesn't exist (yet), and we have no tangible evidence of its existence or its capabilities.

The reason to continue work on MO2 is that until an alternative exists MO2 allows good mod management of Fallout 4 and Skyrim SE.

It's great to have faith and all, but the cone of silence that exists over Vortex means none except the exclusive few, not even those with zero interest in MO, have a right to make assertions at the expense of other users.

 

Seems there's haters on both sides with blinkers on.

Ethreon wrote: Vortex exists just fine, it's just not public yet.

mkr1977 wrote: He isn't continuing work on MO2.

If you want to update MO2 then do it yourself.

MO2 has been taken forward from Tannin by LePresidente and has reached a kind of 90% working completion point. I've been using it for Skyrim, Skyrim SE and Fallout 4 with very few problems. I operate xEdit, Wrye Bash, LOOT, FNIS, Merge Plugins, and Bodyslide from it. MCM can be a bit buggy with it - need to use the main data folder for that.

If people want to use MO2 then it's pretty much OK to use. It's a bit buggy and the profile system does not work (but a third party plugin works around that). In terms of installing and shuffling mods, etc., it's as good as ever. However, my understanding is MO2 will not be developed further.

I'm pretty tired of the naysayers on this column. I'm looking forward to Vortex. Knowing his MO2 history, I'm very confident Tannin will bring us a nice toy to play with. Edited November 12, 2017 by BlueGunk

[Target1213]

I volunteered for testing...begged even. Give me a link or I am calling mother....I cannot wait any longer...

 

 

Thank you for what you do!

[eshesj]

Installing mods MO was big pain for me because of compatibility and stuff, some mods required more time. I'm hoping Vortex will need much less effort to install mods and guide through conflicts without having to read all mod descriptions to find issues or check logs. So many hours wasted on this, I'm hoping Vortex reduces it significantly.

[CzBuCHi]

In response to post #54979568. #54980923, #55054108 are all replies on the same post.

tomsite wrote: Geez guys, Vortex isn't even released in it's Alpha-State and the amount of users knowing best is hitting the roof.

We know pretty much nothing about Vortex, we don't know if it will be a virtual folder like in MO or if it will dump all mods in Data/.
We don't know anything about it's compatibility with NMM and if the data can be migrated. Heck, we don't even know if this was ever a discussion in the development team of Vortex. So hold your horses until a release of Vortex and then you can start whining, complaining or even much better, offer some constructive critic with which the developers can actually work.

I personally like following features of MO and hope they will be available in Vortex:
1. Virtual Folder. if i close MO i have a squeaky clean Data folder and could start a game completely without Mods if i want. it is the fastest "Out-of-the-box".
2. Each mod is isolated from all other mods.
3. That archives and plugins are seperated from each other. I can put a plugin at index 01 and the archive at index 254 if i please. This solves many issues with conflicting files.

If these features are present in Vortex, i will be happy already. If not it would be sad, however i am quite capable to also mod the living hell out of the game without any mod-manager. it is just not as comfortable.

axonis wrote: Just because you may get to see a filename in your Data folder doesn't mean that your mod manger is dumping that file there. It may be a symbolic link which can be easily purged, leaving the original file intact. The original file may be well organized in its own separate folder, outside of Data.

The problem with a so-called "clean" Data folder is that your mod's author cannot support you if he needs to see and analyze what the game sees.

DragoonPreston wrote: From what I've managed to gather, MO's "Virtual Folder" Is an entirely separate 32 bit file system. That caused it to be incompatible with most other programs, and introduced a lot of limitations to what it could do. Don't get me wrong what it was capable of doing it did great, but at the cost of all the features a 64 bit file system brings.

Because Skyrim was a 32 bit game this wasn't a problem, but Skyrim SE is a 64 bit game and therefore is incompatible at its most base level with the file system MO uses.

Vortex, from what I've read and what I know as an IT guy. Is using a VERY powerful system built into modern file systems. "Links". Links let you point a piece of software to a file as if the file were in the folder it's looking at. The files don't even have to be on the same drive if you do it right. The reason it will look like files are in your data folder is because "File Explorer" is a piece of software.

I dont think, that migration from NMM / MO is needed - how many modders will actually use it? me definetly not - specially when installing all my mods takses about a hour (dont count downloading because i have all archives already downloaded)

As i understand, VFS will be essentially two batch files (one creates links, second delete links) with will be generated after each mod install and executed before / after game start / end.

[Khumak]

Glad to hear we're getting close to an actual release. MO2 has been plodding along for me so far but there are some glitches I just haven't found workarounds for yet and I suspect Vortex won't have those issues. That said, even a glitchy MO2 is better than NMM for me. I could never go back to NMM after having used both MO and MO2. Definitely looking forward to trying Vortex.

 

I do like MO's VFS, but I understand why that method wasn't used in Vortex. As long as it's relatively painless to nuke my entire data folder and get a fresh version with my current mod list without having to reinstall anything I think the new VFS system sounds like it will be fine (and probably less compatibility hassles).

[raxmar]

so many people excited for this new vortex but how about installing allllllllllllllllllllll the mods you had on vortex?

 

 

 

 

 

not so excited now

are you

 

[Ethreon]

In response to post #55230978.

raxmar wrote: so many people excited for this new vortex but how about installing allllllllllllllllllllll the mods you had on vortex?





not so excited now
are you

Nobody had any mods on vortex mate.