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An update on Vortex development

Dark0ne

By Dark0ne
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opusGlass Collaborator

opusGlass

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In response to post #54930308. #54930478, #54930773, #54930833, #54930843, #54930848, #54930913, #54931018, #54931133, #54931298, #54931363, #54931473, #54931588, #54932243 are all replies on the same post.


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I'm sorry Dark0ne, but it seems like you guys are trying to dodge the issue here.

Whether or not the underlying mechanism is the same as MO, there is one feature where NMM has never reached the bar. That is the ability to reorder the mod install order. In Mod Organizer, if ModA and ModB both have a copy of the same file and ModB is winning, you can move ModB above ModA and now ModA is winning. In NMM on the other hand, you have to uninstall and reinstall ModA. Additionally, in MO you can uninstall and reinstall ModA without altering the fact that ModB wins the conflict, another necessary function for debugging a mod list.

If Tannin has found a way to implement that same functionality with symlinks/hardlinks, then everyone here will be happy. But I haven't seen any confirmation of that, and silence speaks for itself. So far only MO has achieved that vital functionality. That's why everyone keeps harping on about whether or not you're using the same system as MO.

If you've achieved that functionality, please let us know, so this can end. Otherwise you will continue to get angry posts from grumpy users who are stuck with a buggy MO2.

(And this is really a secondary issue, but I just want to point out that a clean Data folder is an important feature for many mod authors, who need to be able to package their mod files from Data without having to sort through thousands of files to figure out which ones belong to that mod. This isn't a problem for me because I've developed a workflow that doesn't rely on the true Data folder, but a few months ago that would've been a deal breaker for me, and I'm sure it still is for some authors.)
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Dark0ne Grand Master

Dark0ne

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In response to post #54930308. #54930478, #54930773, #54930833, #54930843, #54930848, #54930913, #54931018, #54931133, #54931298, #54931363, #54931473, #54931588, #54932243, #54933863 are all replies on the same post.


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If you've achieved that functionality, please let us know, so this can end. Otherwise you will continue to get angry posts from grumpy users who are stuck with a buggy MO2.

If Tannin has found a way to implement that same functionality with symlinks/hardlinks, then everyone here will be happy. But I haven't seen any confirmation of that, and silence speaks for itself. So far only MO has achieved that vital functionality. That's why everyone keeps harping on about whether or not you're using the same system as MO.


The majority of complaints are because users want "a clean data folder" and aren't related to what you're talking about at all.

If you haven't heard anything about a particular aspect of Vortex it's because we're not ready to talk about it yet. Indeed, we'd rather wait until users actually used Vortex and saw how Tannin has implemented things, rather than trying to explain it to users and have them misunderstand or arbitrarily dismiss the methods Tannin has come up with as inferior based on no actual understanding of the issue. Edited by Dark0ne
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VaultBoyAM Rookie

VaultBoyAM

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In response to post #54930308. #54930478, #54930773, #54930833, #54930843, #54930848, #54930913, #54931018, #54931133, #54931298, #54931363, #54931473, #54931588, #54932243, #54933863, #54934008 are all replies on the same post.


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@opusGlass You should read the original post AND all the replies by Tannin. He's already mentioned that you can set mod conflict victory, not exactly a mod install order, but you'll get the same end result. Edited by VaultBoyAM
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fireundubh Rising Star

fireundubh

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In response to post #54930308. #54930478, #54930773, #54930833, #54930843, #54930848, #54930913, #54931018, #54931133, #54931298, #54931363, #54931473, #54931588, #54932243, #54933863, #54934008, #54934293 are all replies on the same post.


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Silence speaks for itself.
Silence doesn't speak for itself, hence its name.
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VaultBoyAM Rookie

VaultBoyAM

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In response to post #54933313. #54933668 is also a reply to the same post.


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It's not putting files directly into the data folder, they're links. This means that if you uninstall a mod that was winning a mod conflict, it won't leave a hole where the file was, instead the mod that was losing the conflict will take its place, and you can uninstall/reinstall mods in peace. Edited by VaultBoyAM
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axonis Proficient

axonis

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Thanks Dark0ne.

 

No fully virtual system = no headaches for mod authors.

 

Here's a fresh example of a user asking me how to remove trace files of my mod after he uninstalled it with Mod Organizer. If he didn't use a fully virtualized system I could simply help him out by telling him which files he should have deleted.

 

I can't do that, however, because these virtualized remains had been injected by another mod through UIO and apparently MO didn't consider them as part of my own mod anymore. Or something else. Who knows ?

 

Thankfully it seems Vortex, by ditching the fully virtualized system, will sort out these problems and eliminate such headaches.

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seancdaug Rookie

seancdaug

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  On 11/3/2017 at 2:42 PM, ousnius said:

 

You're saying you're switching profiles all the time, but these are all things that are still possible (just as easily and quickly) as with NMM or MO.

 

I'm sorry, but this is just flatly untrue. Creating links isn't a particularly time consuming process, but it isn't, and pretty much cannot be, as fast as MO's VFS. If you're talking about creating a dozen or two links, the chances of anyone actually noticing are close to nil. But, at the moment, my Fallout 4 data directory contains around 150,000 files. Even an optimized process to scan the directory structure and create the needed links is going to be noticeably slow. Not hours, of course, but minutes is certainly reasonable. If I were still actively working on mods, and still in the habit of switching Mod Organizer profiles regularly, that would be plenty long enough to be a significant irritation.

 

I understand the benefits of Vortex's approach, I really do. But the PR here seem to be either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the trade-offs. When Vortex comes out, if people have been promised something that works "just as easily and quickly" in all things, they are going to be seriously disappointed to find out its not true. And I say this as someone who is likely going to switch over to Vortex when the time comes. I'm not averse to making certain trade-offs, I'd just rather everyone be more upfront about the fact that those trade-offs are going to exist.

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Deleted42537105User

Deleted42537105User

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In response to post #54930713. #54932353, #54932553, #54932643, #54932878 are all replies on the same post.


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Awesome, Thank you for all the work.
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seancdaug Rookie

seancdaug

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  On 11/3/2017 at 4:26 PM, VaultBoyAM said:

 

It's not putting files directly into the data folder, they're links. This means that if you uninstall a mod that was winning a mod conflict, it won't leave a hole where the file was, instead the mod that was losing the conflict will take its place, and you can uninstall/reinstall mods in peace.

 

Ideally, this isn't a function of whether the files are physically copied or virtualized (regardless of how they're virtualized). It's a function of the mod manager to keep track of files and mod dependencies to prevent this. Wrye Bash, which features absolutely zero virtualization, already takes care of this quite well, while the current NMM (which uses links similar, at least in concept, to Vortex) is infamously terrible at doing so.

 

The only benefit of Mod Organizer's VFS is that it handles these kind of conflicts essentially invisibly. Any system that depends on either files or links being created in the game's actual directory structure can't do that in the same way. If you uninstall from the manager itself (be it Bash, Vortex, or whatever), the manager should clean everything up. But if you delete something outside of the manager, the manager will need to be told to clean things up. In Bash, that means finding any errors in the Installers tab and annealing them. I expect Vortex will have a similar system, either manual or automatic.

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