I can't believe my eyes

[Ismelda]

Well I'm a special kind of "scum" since I always use AdBlock but still have paid my subscription here not for the ads (obviously) but to get some speed in the downloads.

 

I don't see so much the difference in not seeing and not clicking the ads but well I don't really care and I always support worthwhile websites.

[Ogramirad]

Ok..

 

I was one of those, "Scum Bags" that was using the site since 10-August 06, with SpywareBlaster, Ad-Aware 2007 (and previous incarnations), and Spybot - Search & Destroy.

 

I have been using a computer since my first one, a Gateway 386 33DX machine with a massive 120mb HD which I bought in 1986.

 

I didn’t connect it to internet until late 1987, and that was primarily to BBS systems, and I hung onto DOS, until it was dead, dead, dead.. lol

 

My first Microsoft windows was 3.0, so I guess what I am saying with all of this, is that I have seen the intrusion of malicious software and adware.

 

My first attack on my computer came with 'Stoned" which is the name of a boot sector computer virus created in 1987.

 

So very early on, I took precautions to block as much of anything that I could, that I did not personally invite to my computer, it has become my way of existence on the internet.

 

I maintained that the whole time that I was a member of this site, not because I wanted to deprive the site of ad revenue, but because that is just the way I have always done it.

 

That being said, I have supported my gaming habits on several occasions mainly during my Medal Of Honor days paying money to the clans that I belonged to.

 

Helping to fund and maintain the servers that we played on.

 

So when reading the Nexus slowing down internet?, I followed it for a for a day, before I posted.

 

I did not like the "stealing" moniker attached to some one that used a pop up blocker, so I posted, and read, and the more I read, the more I came to a conclusion.

 

That being that I should Pay and become a Lifetime member of the Site That I Love To Frequent and Use, and Promote, and have been promoting and defending.

 

Anytime that I saw something come up in a negative way in the Official Forums.

 

I did that because Your Site Is The Best Site, Dark One, and I appreciated Everything that I have seen you do for the Elder Scrolls community since I saw it and became a member.

 

I stood up for the site, even mentioning in defense of it that it takes money to run it and people should cut you some slack Big Time, before they go Bad Mouthing it.

 

I did that again in the now closed thread above, and after one of my posts I became a Lifetime member of the Site that I really care about and supported.

 

I was Very Happy about doing that, and went back to that thread to tell folks to do the same, that being Pay For What You Love To Use.

 

But the first thing I read was your Black Tree Gaming post.

 

Man, I have to tell you, I had just gave you $80.00, to fund something deeply cared about, and that I had made my mind up enough to support with money.

 

And then not minutes after reading that I had been a "Scum Bag" and other choice descriptive adjectives.

 

I really felt like I had been kidney punched from behind when I read that.

 

I have re-read it several times now, and it has actually made me laugh several times.

 

But you know what, I support what you said 100%, but not in the way you said it.

 

It had been mentioned that where you said that is a "Personal Blog", yes it is that and Thank God we that live in free societies have those places to post in.

 

And I support your ability to say what ever you want to say there, but that being said..

 

You as the poster in said Blog have to be willing to live with the consequences of your words spoken there.

 

I guess what this boils down for me is this...

 

I Really Love the Site, and what it provides, I have paid Money to keep it going, I will continue to use it and defend it, when I see remarks against it.

 

Because You Are Right Dark One, In What You Were Expressing in your Blog, You Are Right 1000%.

 

But not right in the words that you chose to express that opinion that I Agree With You On 1000%.

 

I think many people will not see the difference, when reading that Blog post and will just see the words, and not the Very Important and Truthful Message that is there in them.

 

So For me, I think it is a "Don't Shoot The Messenger" type of deal.

 

You Being the messenger, and what you said in your Blog as the message.

 

I can tell you know for sure, that as I have said before in this post that I will try to express that Very Message when I can to folks.

 

But in words that will not inflame the Very People that should read it and Pay money to support the site that we all So Very Much Love and Enjoy...

 

All of that being said, I wish that I could knock back a few Pints with you in person to talk about it.

 

I have read your background in your Blog as well, and I find it a fascinating story of achievement on your part...

 

I also hope to talk to you here and any other place that might happen as well.. :thanks:

 

For what you have done with the site, and for what you may choose to do with it in the future... :smile:

[nosisab]

Smartly legals moved from justice to rights. And in doing this unlinked rights from correct and fair.

Rights became the epitome of subterfuge, ambiguity and (sorry if harsh) the smartass den. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not in anyway linked to marketing and legals departments. They are alien to me and I'm glad others can care then. For I shun what they turned.

 

So I'm free to base my judgments in what I deem "just and fair" where right is not 'be' anymore but indeed becomes 'have'. And this is only my own judgment, alike any other personal one, being it what it be.

 

This mean I'll not judge anyone in this current issue. It's clear to me that both part have reasons and mistakes and misunderstood too. Nothing that aways then from humanity, indeed is the contrary.

 

The only position I can take in the issue is in the 'using of ads'. This is a sensitive issue. The ad for itself is not malignant albeit is something that can be exploited by 'evil' purposes by third parts. Otherwise this is not a localized issue, these practices are common place all over the Internet and they aren't evil in nature any more than any other advertisement practice. And this site showed it concerns for the users security as much as Internet allows.

 

They are a revenue source, something that helps the site survive. Would be better without then? for sure would. Should then be banned in this site? ... well, that is the real question here. And I think the answer is in education above blindness. My personal answer is NO. They are need to to this... they are need to most sites over there survives.

 

So enters the education part. How to deal with then. And the tools already exists: your own ad blocker. The user is wise if maintain the block active to any site he don't knows. Once he interacts enough with the site to believe it is a worthwhile place to attend and deems useful, he in the "fairness" name, NOT in the "rights" name, must do what he can to return his appraise to the ones that keep it running. For at this point he already have enough ground to judge the site don't having malignant intentions.

 

This post is already longer I intended at first. It contains just my personal opinion and don't have pretension of being a guide. Anyone is free to act as deem better. Just keep in mind this is a two edge weapon. Purposefully cutting one of the site revenues is showing a lot of unfairness to this site that give us so much and costs us so little.

[Lisnpuppy]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...including the Dark0ne.

 

This is the Dark0ne's site...he put it together...if it cost him a dime or a million dollars...it is his.

 

He is god here and he can do as he wishes.

 

If I or anyone else doesn't like it there is a whole, wide internet world in which to go....so sally forth and good riddins I say!

 

Dark0ne...you should be able to say whatever the h-e-double toothpick you want!

[doomjockey]

Hate to sound hackneyed, but just because you can say what you wish doesn't mean you always should.

 

I had a good laugh reading the blog, but other people won't and they'd be completely justified. And some won't deserve the "get over it or get out" treatment is my guess.

[Dark0ne]

This little write up by me is being posted on a few forums for clarification purposes..mostly because people are quoting me out of context, which, while humourous, is also a tad aggravating ;)

 

There’s so many false accusations and misinterpretations, as well as words being put into my mouth regarding this article that I feel like I’m headlining a tabloid newspaper. Perhaps not quite as epic as the McCartney split, but still, sensationalist none-the-less.

 

Let me first start by putting the original article (http://www.blacktreegaming.com/2007/11/10/people-who-use-adblock-plus-are-filthy-scum-bags/, November 10th 2007) into context. Winter is upon us, I’m back at university in my third year studying a new module. Money is tight. A month and a half ago I had to spend over £6,000 ($12,000) to buy out a business partner who held 50% of the rights to all the code, data, IP, etc. I had created from the ground-up on TESSource. That wasn’t any one’s fault except my own. I was (I guess, “am”, being 22) still young and had been in business with the same person since I was 15 years old. TESSource/TESNexus at the time was costing around $1500/month to keep running, and that wasn’t even at optimal performance. I predicted I needed double that ($3000/month) in order to provide people with a proper service where downloads weren’t crawling at a stupidly slow pace and the site loaded in a realistic time. I also had to take into account that any advertising revenue earnt was in credit i.e. there’s an obvious cash flow problem. Internet advertising works on net30 – net90 terms; that is advertisers pay you between 30 and 90 days after the end of the month in which the advertising is shown. TESNexus was born around the 20th of September, it’s the 10th of November; I haven’t received much money at all from advertisers yet.

 

So how did TESNexus survive? Support for me and TESSource (now TESNexus) was amazing from the Elder Scrolls community. I dug out £5,000 from my own personal savings, savings that were meant to go towards future assets such as getting onto the property ladder; essentially that was money to help me lay down a deposit on a house. All other finance came from Premium Membership payments, of which there were a great many, I’d guess within the first month about £3,000 had been raised. I cannot thank those people enough who were generous enough to support the site in its time of need.

 

I see this awesome support from the greater Elder Scrolls community, and then I see people on the forums encouraging people to use ad blocking software to get past advertisements on the site. A little light flickers in my head, “there’s people out there willing to open their wallets up big time to make sure this site doesn’t go down and then there’s people out there that can’t even hack dealing with a single advertisement on the site, what’s that about?”. I’m not happy, but I’m not pissed off either. Ad blocking software is a way of the internet now, just like pop-up blockers and tabbed browsing, it’s a given that people are going to use them.

 

So I’m lying up in bed one night and I realise I haven’t written much on my blog; I’d written a typical bitching article about Hellgate:London because I promised my gaming friends I would slag it off if it was as crap as I was expecting and lo-and-behold, it was. I like to be overly cynical, overly bitchy, overly ranting sometimes, it’s a great vent. Many other bloggers do too. My blog is also home to my own personal writing sandbox, a place where I can try out my various writing styles. My friends take great pleasure in reading it; they know what I’m like and they know my sense of humour. They enjoy taking the piss out of me for the articles I write up there. So I grab my laptop and decide to write an article on people who use adblockers. The aim is to be cynical, ironic and hypocritical as usual. It turns out many of you saw so much red at the use of the word “scum” that you failed to really grasp any of the points, or the nuances of my writing style. I don’t apologise for that in the slightest; it’s my blog, it’s my writing style, and this is the internet. Does the article reflect badly on me? I guess it does if you don’t like the type of people who are as willing to lay a joke on you as they are to lay a joke on themselves. I have some good friends now that at one point greatly disliked my writing style, how I acted, my attitude etc. on the internet. They then met me in real life at LANs, iLAN, on the university campus, etc. and sussed me out, worked out I wasn’t a recluse hermit who hated everyone, and we went on to become good friends. At the end of the day I put great stock in the old saying “actions speak louder than words”, so if you are going to get in a hissy about what I say, just judge me on what I do instead. I know there are plenty of people who do that.

 

So let’s do a bit of a dissection of my article for the people who aren’t in-tune with my own personal humour. Let me first add that I have been to America a few times (mostly Boston, New Hampshire, Vermont area) and have found that it’s taken most Americans a little while to get used to both how I talk and my attitude. But once they’ve grasped it they’ve been great at tearing me to shreds and using it against me, which I appreciate! Of course I don’t mean to insinuate that Americans are slow (before you folks who like to quote me out-of-context get your grubby mits on this article), merely that there is a clear cultural divide between farm-filled south-west England and the land across the pond.

 

Lets not beat around the bush on this one; if you’re one of those people who sings the praises of AdBlock Plus, the plugin for FireFox that allows users to broadly disable advertising on all the websites they visit, then you’re a filthy scum bag. But we’re all filthy scum bags really. Only the other day I was bored in my Marketing lecture and managed to amuse myself by flicking bogies at a nearby sloan girl (the skill is aiming for those girls that have that deliberate “out of bed” frizzy style hair that just screams “define me”). But still, if you use AdBlock Plus, you’re scum.

 

So I’ve just called everyone a filthy scum bag. I’ve just openly admitted to “flicking bogies” at girls in my marketing lecture and then gone on to call you a scum bag. Don’t you think that reeks of irony a little? I mean, what sort of grub would pick their nose and flick the green stuff on the end of their finger at a girl, and then have the cheek to call YOU a scum bag? That would be me.

 

I’ve had pretty hard-line views on the subject for quite some time now. As the owner of TESNexus, a popular video game site that is very resource and bandwidth intensive, I began taking personal offense to the members of the site forums who would openly suggest using AdBlock Plus, or similar applications, to circumvent the advertising on the site. As offenses go, I’d say it’s up there with those gimps who work behind the tills in nightclubs who think, just because you’ve drunk too much, you can’t count your change.

 

Straight forward really. Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

I’m willing to be realistic about this; I can see certain uses for an ad blocker. One of those uses doesn’t include financially raping those webmasters who run an honest resource for community members with good quality advertising. In the interest of keeping the peace, what I advocate is a more subjective use of adblock programs, rather than a “[censored] them all” approach. These programs allow users to specify whether all ads are blocked, or just ads on specific sites. So here’s a clue, why not block sites that you subjectively view are taking the piss when it comes to advertising? I’m sure we’ve all been to those sites that manage to trigger massive brain hemorrhages with their epileptic flashing colours, ads that scream out in some tard-tastic yank accent that you’ve won a free iPod or ads that bounce around the screen, and even when you click that tiny little “x” in the corner to close the ad it seems to think you’re interested in what they’re selling. OK, that’s lame, and no one wants to experience that, so at this point, why not block the ads for this particular site? Then again, the only sites that do that these days are porn sites, or sites with nil content, so you’ve got to start questioning your own browsing habits if you’re experiencing this s#*! regularly.

 

Here’s the meat. I admit that ad blocking software has “certain uses”. I’d know because I use AdBlock Plus. Yes, a piece of personal humour; I’ve said everyone who uses AdBlock Plus is a scum bag when I actually use it. You weren’t to know this, but obviously I did. A nice little “man on the moon” chuckle for me.

 

So what have I said? I’ve said that ad blocking software has it’s uses, that blocking ads will “financially rape” webmasters running an honest resource. I suggest that instead of blanket blocking advertisements across the entire internet you use the ad blocking software more subjectively. That is; you pick and choose which ads are ok and which are too much. It’s not a hard ask. Some might say it’s even logical.

 

I go on to explain that even I agree that flashing ads and ads with forced sound are annoying and that I understand the need to block such ads. I then personally attack my own site that has used these types of adverts in the past by saying you should be “questioning your own browsing habits if you’re experiencing this [censored] regularly”, essentially saying you should be questioning why you’re even going to TESNexus because I’ve labeled it with some of the dingiest sites on the internet.

 

At this point let me go off on a tangent and explain the advertisements TESNexus uses. I run my advertisements through third party companies that have proven themselves. That means these companies actively seek advertising campaigns for TESNexus (with varying degrees of success) without me having to do it (it’s a full time job). In return the company gets a cut of the advertising revenue, normally between 40% and 50% of the total revenue. Advertising on the internet is much like a ranked ladder; you often have to start at the bottom and work your way up. The bottom is where the flashing ads, the ads with questionable content and the ads with semi-nudity delve. These are high yield and very low income i.e. there are lots of these ads to show but they return very little in revenue. The middle is where the genre specific ads are located; i.e. I run a gaming site so advertisers show gaming related advertisements. These are medium yield with average income; if the site runs out of medium ads to show it defaults to the bottom ads to fill the rest of the advertising inventory. At the top are highly targeted, highly specialized ads that target you by country, state or even town and are highly relevant to the content of the site. These are low yield but high income. If there are no high end ads to show then the site will show medium end ads, and if there are no medium end ads to show then the site will show low end ads in what’s known as a “chaining” action. 90% of adverts I show are CPM (cost per thousand ads shown) as opposed to CPC (cost-per click), so even if you’re not clicking adverts you’re still generating revenue for the site.

 

My open philosophy on advertisements on Chronicles/Source/Nexus has always been “click what you like the look of” not “click as often as you can”. Advertisers aren’t dumb; they know a click to generate money for the webmaster from a click that is actually interested in the product advertised. There isn’t a month that goes by that I get an email that explains that the user cannot afford to buy premium membership but is willing to click the adverts on the site on a regular basis. I always ask them to refrain from doing so and only click on ads they like the look of. It’s a bit two-faced if I whine about people using ad blockers and then go on to advocate you earn me more money at the expense of the advertisers, isn’t it? If I make money on TESNexus I want it to be honest money.

 

All third party advertisers that I work with allow me to see all the ads currently being displayed and will allow me to disable specific ads if I disagree with their content or methods. The result is that, in the past, people have approached me regarding questionable advertisements on the site, I’ve investigated and most of the time have pulled the advertisement via the third party advertiser interface. So let me reiterate; people have come to me, explained their problem with a specific advertisement on the site and I have listened and removed said advertisement on multiple occasions.

 

My only exception is the pop-under, which I class as a necessary evil. The 300x250 banner on the site just doesn’t cut it enough to fund the site. Quoting myself in the comments for the article:

 

When looking for alternative ad formats there were three choices. The first were interstitials. These are the full-screen ads that load during page loads and either have a 10 - 15 second countdown timer before showing the page you actually want, or have a “skip this ad” link in the top-right corner. The second was contextual link advertising. These parse the content of a page for keywords and turn these keywords in the page content into links. When you hover over the keyword links a new layer spawns with an ad. The third was of course pop-unders.

 

It was really a matter of choosing the better of three evils, and my personal preference always goes towards pop-unders, since (a) they spawn under the browser so they’re not so in-your-face and (b) they’re easy to deal with. Pop-unders are used on many sites across the internet, not just seedy joints. I know that my favourite gaming news site, bluesnews.com, uses them for example.

 

Of course I will investigate immediately any pop-under advertisement that is suspect, but the actual format is deemed necessary by me.

 

If you’re one of those Adblock users who has this retarded idea that advertising has no effect on them and turning off the ads is perfectly acceptable, I’m going to be blunt: you’re an idiot, and you’re wrong. Use the internet or go do some psychology night classes. Irrespective of whether you think you pay attention to advertising or not, the whole point of it being there is to provide revenue to the webmaster, revenue used to help pay for the site you are using.

 

These people do genuinely annoy me. Billions, perhaps trillions of dollars are pumped into the advertising and marketing industry every year with heavy research focused on the effects of advertising. You may not believe advertising affects you, but it does. So you don’t believe you view the adverts? So what? Keep them there and support the site, or alternatively become a premium member and you can have the ads removed for you. And for the love of all that is good don’t try and argue that by blocking adverts you’re helping the webmaster of the site. You’re really not.

 

Perhaps this is the most provocative paragraph of my blurb since I add no personal humour to it. Do I resent that? No, not really, because by the end of the article you should be well aware of my own willingness to come across as an idiot to not be bothered by my snide remarks.

 

There are plenty of blog articles and internet b&@*$ fights on the net about this s#*! that normally revolve around some headline grabbing, middle-aged codpiece referencing the concept of adblocking = theft, and I’m not going to do it here (you dirty thieving shits). Instead I’m going to take the high-ground and avoid all the name calling and hype phrases and get to the point: using ad blockers in your browser is your prerogative, in the same way that downloading the latest episode of Lost to satisfy your bleak concept of imagination via bittorrent is also your prerogative. Just don’t start whining like a b&@*$ when the original sites you use start limiting your bandwidth, or doing similar things to screw you back.

 

I link two separate articles from people arguing back and forth about the concept of using ad blockers being theft and go on to explain I am not going to argue it. Indeed in the thread on the official forums regarding this issue I did mention I had no intention of starting a crusade against blanket blockers because it was utterly pointless. What opinions I do have on the subject are so subjective that it would have no meaning on the internet. I make this very, very clear, and yet I’ve still somehow been interpreted as advocating ad blocking = theft. I hope that the misguided people who did somehow interpret that from what was written were merely the lazy beggars who couldn’t be bothered to read through both the blog article and the official forum thread. If that’s not the case then this post is a lost cause to you.

 

In a bracketed aside comment I call you “dirty thieving [censored]s” and then in the next line say I’m going to “take the high-ground” and “avoid all the name calling and hype phrases” … um, hello people? Didn’t that strike you as slightly odd? Ironic maybe? Perhaps hypocritical? That’s my humour. I don’t think it’s subtle but from the vocal response I’ve seen from some people it seems to have been utterly lost on them. As though I actually called you thieves and then honestly thought I was taking the high-ground. Let me categorically state for those people that I don’t think you’re thieving [censored]s and that I definitely didn’t think I was taking the high ground. Indeed when people first stated their discontent with being called “scum” and “idiots” I must have face palmed myself at least five times and received a message from a close friend that explained I’ve “once again alienated people with [my] crappy humour and attitude. Good job”. I must admit, I managed to see a humourous side in the events proceeding that official forum thread; laughing at myself.

 

I’ve been toying with the idea of limiting the download speed of users on TESNexus who are using adblocking programs. Rather than completely screwing them over by blocking them completely, or doing something ridiculously thickwitted, I’ll continue to provide the site for the entire community, including the [censored] and thick [censored] who blanket block all advertisements on all sites irrespective of circumstance, but simply limit the download speed for files to something rather small, say, 20kb/sec. No problem for those hill-billies still on dial-up, but those guys are so backwards already that I’m sure any reputable advertisers wouldn’t want their interest anyway (yes, haha, except broadband ISPs).

 

I further state my intent to keep TESNexus for everybody irrespective of their use of ad blocking software. I perhaps overstate my dislike for the blanket blockers out there but what can I say? If you want me to get all Opera on you I’ll tell you I don’t hate you, I hate what you’re doing. I don’t agree with it. The hillbilly comment? Well, that was touch and go, mostly because I knew that Buddah, someone I have great respect for, was actually on dial-up at his home. The funny thing with Buddah is that, as far as I know, he works for a telecoms company that offers broadband etc. but has dialup at home. So that one’s for you, Buddah! ;)

 

I guess the moral of the story is to take blog articles, particularly mine, with a nice big pinch of salt.

[buddah]

Thanks Dark0ne, I hope this clarifies things a little...I had seen this before, but I read the whole thing and chuckled through out, it is so filled with cynicism and subtle british humor that it would be lost on most americans who would accept it as literal and factual.

 

To qualify that my favorite British show of all time is "Spitting Images", yes this will be lost on most of the non british on these forums, and perhaps some of the younger ones as well.

 

The hillbillie smack, was nice touch and made me roar with laughter as my mothers family is actually from the hills of Kentucky outside of Midway. It was not lost on me, and was expected of you.

 

Buddah aka Micky

[hoots7]

I'm not going to get into the whole argument of who's right or wrong. I'd just like to remind Dark0ne that he is running a business and unfortunately image goes part and parcel with that. You may of thought your comments were innocuous and light hearted but some people may see them as being obnoxious. I just don't want to see you doing a Ratner.

Very wise words Scanti.

I don't want to see any more negative consequences of this.

Just my 2 cents on the add blocking: When I read that one of the premium members advantages was no adds that meant to me that blocking them would not be the most honest thing for me to do.

[Glue]

90% of adverts I show are CPM (cost per thousand ads shown) as opposed to CPC (cost-per click), so even if you’re not clicking adverts you’re still generating revenue for the site.

 

It's good to know that the ads bring revenue mainly in this way. Although I don't mind seeing the ads at all I don't often click on them. (I click once on each new one I've not clicked before).

 

I was also for a long time running ABP on the site without really thinking because I simply (naively) had no idea how these ads bring in their revenue. Just never thought about it. I assumed the money was generated for the site like a rental, regardless of who or how many actually saw them, like tv or billboards.

 

Ah but the internet is a different beast with sharper eyes and pointier teeth. I saw the error in my assumptions and switched the ads on.

 

I think that for the content I've downloaded alone from TESSource and TESNexus in the last two years having a few ads on my pages is a pitifully small price to pay. i.e, none!

 

I can see how Dark0ne's blog might have ruffled a few feathers but dry humour and personality is a tough thing to get over without knowing the person behind it, even in person. I know, I'm often having to explain to people who don't know me well that I'm not a bigotted, murderous maniac after saying something as a joke or with irony. Add to that the unimaginable stresses of being a 22 year old student and having 2/3 of a million people relying on your free time and your bank account and well.... maybe cut the guy a bit of slack.

 

In the end, you can't judge someone unless you know them and where they're coming from, and if you have an issue talk to them and find out what they're actually about. You often find you're talking to someone just like you.

[LHammonds]

The hillbilly comment? Well, that was touch and go, mostly because I knew that Buddah, someone I have great respect for, was actually on dial-up at his home. The funny thing with Buddah is that, as far as I know, he works for a telecoms company that offers broadband etc. but has dialup at home. So that one’s for you, Buddah! ;)

hehehe. When I read that last part, Buddah was the only member on this site that came to mind, other than myself. I also thought it quite funny when I 1st found out that Buddah was on dial-up and worked for a broadband company. ;D Yet, somehow Buddah was "all over" the mods that were being released and kept up with them using a spreadsheet and probably had his modem constantly maxed out with mods being downloaded.

 

When I moved out of the city in 2005 to a rural area, I didn't have access to broadband for a while and could only use dial-up. I cheated and dialed up my work phone to access email until DSL was finally made available (thankfully it wasn't too long after building my house).

 

LHammonds