Limited Vortex alpha release today, full release soon

[Ethreon]

In response to post #57234786. #57235026 is also a reply to the same post.

Ethreon wrote: Well I've given my feedback. Overall I am not happy with Vortex and I've uninstalled it. Feel free to distribute my spot if that's a thing.

RockGodOne wrote: Since we both have tried and disliked Vortex then uninstalled it, could you tell me how to reapply my profile to NMM so I can start using NMM again?

No idea, mine seems to be just fine. Have you uninstalled all the mods before using Vortex?

[JamminJlox]

In response to post #57234346.

RockGodOne wrote: I got Vortex yesterday but its so confusing compared to NMM even tho it looks so simple. No fomod support? And it's an all or nothing system for mods that alter many files? So I can no longer use more than 1 NPC makeover mod or i'll have tons of black faces.

For those HUGE reasons, I uninstalled Vortex, but how do I go back to NMM? I still have all my mods installed and activated in NMM, but I can no longer download mods and when I launch SSE with SKSE64 and try to load up a save, it tells me I have no mods installed.

It has FOMOD support but it doesn't work when you import mods. It work if you download the mod from the website perfectly.

[Oblitus]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

> We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

[Hilli1]

First let me say thank you for making this software available. I downloaded two days ago, used it with Skyrim Special Edition and checked out most features. So, you asked for feedback. Here is mine:

 

In my opinion Vortex is mostly intuitive. I was quickly able to setup the software including

- setting up the game (in my case SSE)

- setting up the nexus link so that I was able to download from nexus using the Mod Manager Download Button

- adding tools in the tool bar including SKSE and making it primary

- changing the download path and install path

The complete setup was done within of about 15 minutes.

 

It took me much more time to import mods from MO2. Finally it worked but it was not so easy. It needed to change the MO2.ini (gameName=Skyrim SSE instead of gameName=Skyrim Special Edition) [# possible bug: import from MO2 broken]. Then the setup-window did not show any mods. Obvious Vortex looked into the mods-folder of the ModOrganizer install folder only. But my mods were on a different place. After moving from there into the mods-folder from Mo2 it worked [# possible improvement: Possibility to choose the MO2 mods folder].

 

To install the mods it is important to understand how Vortex handles mods. It is needed to know what Uninstalled, Disabled, Enabled and Deploy means. As a MO2 user it was not really intuitive for me. I needed to read in the forum about that. The installing of the mods was not without problems. Like some others reported already there was an issue that some mods were double installed [# possible bug: double installed mods]. Double installed mods can be detected looking in the column "version". There was shown a button. Clicking on it showed 2 times the same version. Uninstalling and purge mods did not help. In this context the Skyrim Special Edition Button shows a mod active although all mods were uninstalled. I got it clean manually deleting the files inside the data-folder of the game and making a new mod install. Last thing about mod installation: It would be nice to have an option to automatically unpack a bsa-file during the installation [# possible improvement: Automatically unpack BSA-files].

 

Many user say they want to have the data-folder of the game clean. I don't want to have a cluttered data-folder as well. I use a clean folder for example when I want to merge mods or when I want to create BSA files. So I was skeptical first. However now I think the given solution is well-thought. It is always possible to get a clean data-folder. There are two possible ways: You can hit the button "purge mods" on the mods-page (you must enable advanced mode under Settings first). Don't forget to hit the button "deploy mods" when you finished your work. Second solution I found is to create a new profile without any mods. I called this profile "Clean". When there is a need to have a clean data folder you can simply change the profile and you will have it.

 

The mods folder needs some improvement. Rather random I found out that double clicking on a mod opens a description-window of the choosen mod. This is not really intuitive. Beyond that the new description window overlaps the main window. In my opinion this should not happen. I would prefer when the description window is always visible when you click on a mod [# possible improvement: description windows always visible]. The next point is: Nowhere I can find the mod author. The mod author should be named and linked in the description window or better in the main window next to the mod name [# possible improvement: Adding mod author]. You can find "visit on www.nexusmods.com" in the description window. This is very tiny. However this is an important field which is often used (especially when you found an update and need to visit the nexus-page for downloading the new version). There should be a larger button for that [# possible improvement: Large Button for Visit on Nexusmods]. Last thing here: It seems the Endorsed-Button does not work right. Downloaded mods are always shown as undecided, also when the mod is endorsed already [# possible bug: Endorsed button does not work right].

 

Last but not least the most important issue for me is that there is no possibility to rearrange the load order (Plugins) and the install order (Mods) manually. Like many others I think it is a must-have and a core-function of a mod manager. Setting up all the dependencies is really a pain and after you set up some dozens dependencies it will be confusing at some point. And it takes far more time compared to simply drag and drop the files. Tannin, please rethink your opinion in this point and make a manual adjustment of load order and install order possible [# possible improvement: possibility to manual drag and drop plugins and mods to change the load order respectively the install order].

 

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

[Lumpyacidfish]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

[Xayjyn]

Not being able to control load order will kill this for a great great many people.

 

Every bethesda game listed, dragon's dogma, xcom and both Witchers rely on strict override capabilities, especially for add on/dependency mods of existing "super mods" or total conversions/system overhauls, there's no way around this other than an ordered prioritization function, which currently doesn't exist, and would confusing as hell to boot anyway, as evidenced from games that used it (early red storm games).

 

That the "rule" super/sub system would be both intuitive and yet robust to cover ANY mod set up for bethesda and firaxis titles in particular without strict ordering is eyebrow raising at least.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Xayjyn

[simsrw73]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

[xZomosax]

In response to post #57207131. #57207521, #57209031, #57209301, #57209331, #57210181, #57210331, #57210641, #57211246, #57211921, #57212311, #57212726, #57213111 are all replies on the same post.

Mebantiza wrote: Nice, the same hideous, barely legible interface that the 'new' nexus uses, now rears its fugly head in 'Vortex' as well. Just perfect. An immediate turn-off, since it looks exactly like the wildly (UN)popular 'new' nexus look. If you were worried Vortex was going force MO on you, that was the least of your worries. They asked the same guy that made the nexus barely usable, and barely legible , if he would skin 'vortex' as well.

What a mess.

Who thought wed want to see nexus news , or latest mods even baked into this? Yes, those can be turned off, but still.

1/10

RadioactiveStud wrote: Sounds like you didn't even try to use it. Also I don't see what's wrong with the UI. It's super easy to use.

OnyxSix wrote: I'm with Mebantiza here. Vortex, along with the new nexus, is very poorly designed and laid out. It just seems like a worse looking, less user friendly version of ModDrop(Which is where I'm moving if Nexus doesn't get their s#*! together tbh)

Ethreon wrote: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

nappilydeestructio wrote: Honestly I respectfully disagree with you. I wasn't into the new UI at first when nexusmods update it because it had some issues But now that its fixed, it looks fine and simple. I really didn't like the old look at all. It was a lil dated and it was clunky to me tbh. To me its not that bad looking. I have seen worst looking UIs and its hella worst than what nexusmods has now.

rcdcce wrote: I think this post can be awarded over statement of the year.

Aside from a few annoyances the new Nexus layout is fine. It's not like the old one was perfect.

Oblitus wrote: New nexus is really bad. Huge amounts of wasted space, weird composition, and it looks like a mess overall. It's just a bunch of merging and intersecting rectangles without any hierarchy.

rincewindTA wrote: I like the actual Nexus design. I found it perfectly functional and easy to use. And looks neat too.

RadioactiveStud wrote: You guys are all talking about the new nexus, but that has nothing to do with vortex. They don't really look alike.

APasz wrote: If you think you can do better, by all means design and share it.
Keep in mind that your design has to fit correctly on everything from a mobile phone to a ultrawide monitor, also be usable with touch.
I'm not even going to try and explain why everything was designed the way it was.

Oblitus wrote: > Keep in mind that your design has to fit correctly on everything from a mobile phone to a ultrawide monitor, also be usable with touch.
> I'm not even going to try and explain why everything was designed the way it was.

You already did. It is designed for a mobile phone and is technically usable at normal monitors. That what always happens when you design a universal interface - you are limited by the weakest implementation.

APasz wrote: Are you suggesting that a web dev can't distinguish between a mobile phone and desktop?

Oblitus wrote: > Are you suggesting that a web dev can't distinguish between a mobile phone and desktop?

They can. But proper design means two totally separate implementations for them. It takes much less effort to make it for a phone and make an extra move to make it still usable when stretched to the desktop size.

It applies not only to web design; it is a general rule. Cross-platform games and pc-exclusive ones usually easy to distinguish too.

@Apasz no point even trying. they dont like change. Also they didnt get their way so they are upset. Simple fact is... dont like it? bye. Its not changing. This is the way it is. The layout is fine on everything.

@Oblitus The old layout had much more wasted space.....

[ezfreee]

Frankly.. as annoying as it is that you release this.. and i haven't been able to download it for 24 hrs... I'm glad.

Glad that MO2 lives.