Giving up on Vortex for now

[d81]

Based on that statement, it's unlikely you'll see this, but I'll put it here for others who are willing to think about these things:

 

No matter how hard you try, no matter how much hate you pour on it, LOOT is not going to go away.

Its prevalence and integration with multiple different mod managers indicates that a rather large, if silent, majority of users are fine and reasonably happy with it.

You say there has been problems with it. Fine, and valid. I don't think anyone is arguing that. However, Tannin offered a proactive solution to that problem that works within the framework that has, realistically, become the standard for the community at large. I fail to see how anything but blind hatred makes that solution unviable and/or not worth the little bit of effort to implement. Without implementation, it's ultimately impossible to know whether Tannin's recommendation is the best solution or not.

 

I understand that Vortex represents a change in how some of us in the community go about these kinds of mod-related activities. Yes, it does require some learning. Yes, that learning does require a bit of effort. But that's not a bad thing.

Change is not inherently positive or negative, good or bad. It's the end result of that change that matters. But we can't know what the end result will be if we blindly reject the change on the basis that it's change.

 

I know I'm being ridiculous, asking for this on the Internet, but we as testers need to keep an open mind, and come at this thoughtfully. The goal of this testing period, really, is to evaluate the functionality of Vortex as a piece of software, in isolation. The past few days of posts have been mostly unhelpful. Attempting to relitigate an issue that Tannin has essentially closed, with detailed reasoning as to why it's closed, buries posts that testers who are attempting to actually test various features currently in the software might have made.

 

Now that I've said all that, I intend for this to be my last post on this subject. I can't promise that I'll remember to hold myself to this, but I'll try.

Just so we are clear, here are some final statements including info I did not know I needed to share:

 

I love the Nexus and use it every day. Dark0ne seems like a great dude. Tannin is obviously an expert developer who I think has the best of intentions, and is probably a great guy. I like Vortex, and for an "alpha" it is incredibly stable and well functioning. I will continue to use it and provide feedback within the application. I am aware of and grateful for all the time and money spent to provide this free, GPL-3 licensed, extensible program to me and others at no monetary cost.

 

I have been snarky because I have interpreted Tannin's comments as snarky (and dismissive). I realize he might be under a lot of stress, but that's the way I am interpreting his statements. I mostly stick to my little corner of the Nexus and try to remain friendly and not-bothered, but after checking out Vortex I had to come see what was going on with the load order management. Tannin's comments in the "Known Issues" immediately struck me as unprofessional, then I started reading more of his posts and was very surprised indeed. So I apologize if that colored my statements of late.

 

I do not hate LOOT. I use LOOT for Oblivion through Wrye Bash. When I set that game up I will always use those two tools unless they stop working. It hasn't aged well, but I think Wrye is the superior mod manager for Oblivion and doubt anything better will come along for such an old game. LOOT is becoming less useful as I use newer Oblivion mods it does not recognize (yes, LOOT does not recognize other authors' mods, unbelievable).

 

I don't use or need LOOT for any other Bethesda game. I just don't need it.

 

I do not care if other people use it, that doesn't bother me one bit. You do you. I do not use it often because it does not do what I want, and has been more trouble than it's worth. If that changes in the future, great. If not, oh well.

 

I do not make unmanageable load orders. I do not make load orders with many conflicts, and the conflicts that are there I manage by hand so I have a working game.

 

I hand make patches for most game mods. Oblivion is the only game that seems to produce reliable Bashed Patches and have many mods with Bashed Tags. Sometimes xEdit merged patches are useful, but I rarely make use of them anymore, scripts can accomplish more with better accuracy. A good load order is a product of good mod choices (you know, planning), not software accessories.

 

I do not like current software trends. I am annoyed when useful features are removed in the name of the masses misusing them, as if that's my fault.

 

When I am condescendingly told I am doing something incorrectly and I am certainly not, I do not like it. In this case I take offense. I am making use of modding tools, having fun, and have working games.

 

This isn't even about LOOT. I don't care about that one bit. I care about the loss of functionality and being told its wrong to think otherwise because I don't get it.

 

That is all. I'm really done now.

[MarchinBunny]

 

Based on that statement, it's unlikely you'll see this, but I'll put it here for others who are willing to think about these things:

 

No matter how hard you try, no matter how much hate you pour on it, LOOT is not going to go away.

Its prevalence and integration with multiple different mod managers indicates that a rather large, if silent, majority of users are fine and reasonably happy with it.

You say there has been problems with it. Fine, and valid. I don't think anyone is arguing that. However, Tannin offered a proactive solution to that problem that works within the framework that has, realistically, become the standard for the community at large. I fail to see how anything but blind hatred makes that solution unviable and/or not worth the little bit of effort to implement. Without implementation, it's ultimately impossible to know whether Tannin's recommendation is the best solution or not.

 

I understand that Vortex represents a change in how some of us in the community go about these kinds of mod-related activities. Yes, it does require some learning. Yes, that learning does require a bit of effort. But that's not a bad thing.

Change is not inherently positive or negative, good or bad. It's the end result of that change that matters. But we can't know what the end result will be if we blindly reject the change on the basis that it's change.

 

I know I'm being ridiculous, asking for this on the Internet, but we as testers need to keep an open mind, and come at this thoughtfully. The goal of this testing period, really, is to evaluate the functionality of Vortex as a piece of software, in isolation. The past few days of posts have been mostly unhelpful. Attempting to relitigate an issue that Tannin has essentially closed, with detailed reasoning as to why it's closed, buries posts that testers who are attempting to actually test various features currently in the software might have made.

 

Now that I've said all that, I intend for this to be my last post on this subject. I can't promise that I'll remember to hold myself to this, but I'll try.

Just so we are clear, here are some final statements including info I did not know I needed to share:

 

I love the Nexus and use it every day. Dark0ne seems like a great dude. Tannin is obviously an expert developer who I think has the best of intentions, and is probably a great guy. I like Vortex, and for an "alpha" it is incredibly stable and well functioning. I will continue to use it and provide feedback within the application. I am aware of and grateful for all the time and money spent to provide this free, GPL-3 licensed, extensible program to me and others at no monetary cost.

 

I have been snarky because I have interpreted Tannin's comments as snarky (and dismissive). I realize he might be under a lot of stress, but that's the way I am interpreting his statements. I mostly stick to my little corner of the Nexus and try to remain friendly and not-bothered, but after checking out Vortex I had to come see what was going on with the load order management. Tannin's comments in the "Known Issues" immediately struck me as unprofessional, then I started reading more of his posts and was very surprised indeed. So I apologize if that colored my statements of late.

 

I do not hate LOOT. I use LOOT for Oblivion through Wrye Bash. When I set that game up I will always use those two tools unless they stop working. It hasn't aged well, but I think Wrye is the superior mod manager for Oblivion and doubt anything better will come along for such an old game. LOOT is becoming less useful as I use newer Oblivion mods it does not recognize (yes, LOOT does not recognize other authors' mods, unbelievable).

 

I don't use or need LOOT for any other Bethesda game. I just don't need it.

 

I do not care if other people use it, that doesn't bother me one bit. You do you. I do not use it often because it does not do what I want, and has been more trouble than it's worth. If that changes in the future, great. If not, oh well.

 

I do not make unmanageable load orders. I do not make load orders with many conflicts, and the conflicts that are there I manage by hand so I have a working game.

 

I hand make patches for most game mods. Oblivion is the only game that seems to produce reliable Bashed Patches and have many mods with Bashed Tags. Sometimes xEdit merged patches are useful, but I rarely make use of them anymore, scripts can accomplish more with better accuracy. A good load order is a product of good mod choices (you know, planning), not software accessories.

 

I do not like current software trends. I am annoyed when useful features are removed in the name of the masses misusing them, as if that's my fault.

 

When I am condescendingly told I am doing something incorrectly and I am certainly not, I do not like it. In this case I take offense. I am making use of modding tools, having fun, and have working games.

 

This isn't even about LOOT. I don't care about that one bit. I care about the loss of functionality and being told its wrong to think otherwise because I don't get it.

 

That is all. I'm really done now.

 

 

There is a lot of reasons why it's tough to understand why you want the old way back with Vortex.

1. It's really not needed. There is no good reason why you would need to sort your load order manually. You should only be sorting mods that need to be sorted for compatibility issues.

2. You have not actually once explained how LOOT is more trouble than it's worth for you. You just make the claim and you never actually get into why or how.

3. Whether or not you need LOOT is irrelevant. I don't need a calculator but I use one anyway because it saves time. Not needing something useful is never a good argument.

4. If you don't make load orders with many conflicts then why do you care so much about how Vortex is sorting? That literally means it doesn't take you long to sort your load order. Meaning you would not even need to create a whole lot of rules. I really cannot understand where you seem to see a problem here.

5. Technically, you are not losing any control. You can still order your mods however you want by creating rules. So if a person wanted to do it wrong, they still could.

6. No one said you specifically were doing it wrong. If you are ordering your load order by category, then yes you are doing it wrong. If you are not doing that, then we were not talking to you about doing it wrong. However, if you find LOOT so useless and more trouble than it's worth, I am really curious how exactly you do your load order differently. Load order is just about preventing compatibility issues and that is what LOOT attempts to do. It's not perfect, but it's certainly a lot better than doing it entirely manual every single time. Especially since you can set the rules you need and it will remember those rules for the next time you sort. Meaning it only needs to be done once.

[Tannin42]

But then there are good number of modders by now (considering Skyrim was released in 2011) that are veterans, have complicaed setups and are well versed in the modding knowledge. These obviously include the mod creators themselves.

These people will also need a manager bu not for the goal of running the game without problems but to develop things.

Skyrim was released in 2011. ESLs were added 2017 and made plugin ordering quite a bit more complicated. I have honest doubts that most of those you consider veterans actually have the kind of

deep understanding that you claim.

 

And mod authors should be thanking me. They should be sending me cake and flowers for these changes because they will help reduce the amount of troubleshooting they are asked to do.

 

For their own testing I already said many pages ago that I would be adding a feature to lock a plugin to a specific mod index which should be even more robust when want to directly control

one single plugin.

 

Adopting the Loot system as a primary system is a very good idea since it's the correct way of doing things and many users wan it to be like that (something that they don't have to care about if

not in rare cases). But for the veteran modders and mod creators having to set individual rules just to move a plugin in determined spot to test somethig, then removing thise rules and set up

new ones to move it again, its just not convenient enough. Now you have said different times that there is no reason to move a plugin in a particular spot because the underlaying problem is

a conflict not the position that matters, you are right and you then argued that rules is the right way to go because they are the appropriate answer to the underlying problem which is a conflict.

A agree to that, but what if I have a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins?

Wait wait wait.

a) It wouldn't just have to be a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins. It would have to be a plugin where loot fails to arrange it automatically in 15 cases! Even if loot was

throwing dice you'd have to have ~30 conflicts for your users to have to set 15 rules.

b) You do realise that Vortex has a utility to batch-set dependency rules? Setting 15 rules can still be done in a few seconds when you know what those conflicts.

c) And there is no fundamental reason why you can't put 15 rules for a plugin into the masterlist. Or 150.

d) What plugin is that? Can you give me one example of a plugin that has this many conflicts that loot doesn't auto-resolve correctly? Heck, show me one with 2.

 

What people would like to hear is that Vortex will allow in future for drag and drop plugin ordering as a secondary (or even hidden) option.

What I said is that we won't provide this functionality and I don't feel this is likely to change.

But Vortex supports an extension system and it would absolutely be possible for others to provide this functionality.

We always new Vortex would never please everyone, that's why we have extensions and themes and picked an easy-to-learn programming language where all the tools are free, so

people could customise it to their needs.

But obviously you won't find a whole lot of extensions less than a week after a limited release, without any api documentation.

[HeyYou]

Here is a little exercise for everyone who is against LOOT and the sorting methods used in Vortex. Who is Vortex made for, you, or the community? I think the answer there is obvious, so I am going to assume you answered the community. When you are developing a software for the community and your goal is to bring accessibility to as many people as you can, how do you do it? You make it easier to use. You want people to be able to load it up, and just have it work with as little effort as possible. Sure, on the surface we all know some effort is going to have to be made, but making it easier where it can be, is never a bad thing.

I feel like a lot of people get so caught up in seeing themselves as an "advanced user" they often forget that this crap doesn't need to be advanced just because you want it to be. It's not a software developed just for people like you. It's a software developed for the entire community. I feel like NMM was always the software of choice for a large part of the community despite how advanced MO was specifically because it was more simple and easier to use.

 

In this case, I feel like Vortex is more advanced than NMM while still keeping it easy, if not easier. It's both advanced and easy and I think that is fantastic. You still have control over your load order and while it might not be as simple as dragging and dropping, in the long run, it's better for everyone. The process might be different, but it achieves what it needs to do and it does a better job of it. Not only that, but for those who don't want to fiddle with load orders, it is more likely to just work, and that is a great thing. That is what this community needs. Making things easier to use for your average user is always going to be a process that takes place in software development because that is how you make a good software.

 

Can it include the more advanced features? Absolutely. But you have to really give a good explanation as to why you need the feature over what is currently available to you. If what you need is the capability to move a mod in your load order, you already have that functionality. It's there, it's just a bit different. As I have said before, if you are moving tons of mods for very little reason in your load order, you are doing it wrong. I get people don't like being told they are wrong, but in some cases, you just have to accept that you are wrong. Better to accept and learn than to keep your pride and stay ignorant. The only mods you should ever be moving in your load order is when there is a conflict. After LOOT does its thing, I can assure you there will not be that many more mods to move. Take a look at the STEP guide. How many LOOT rules do they need after auto sorting? I think it's about 10. It's really not that many. And keep in mind the more rules submitted to LOOTs master list because more people are using it, the less you will even need to make your own rules.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if the amount of mods you need to move in your load order is 0?

 

I for one applaud Tannin. I am very happy with this move and I think he is doing an excellent job to really think about what the community as a whole needs to make modding more accessible here. He is thinking things through in a more long-term manner than a short one. He doesn't want more of the same. We already had NMM and MO. He is trying it improve, not repeat.

Are we here not part of the community as well?

 

In any event, Tannin has made his position clear, he isn't going to include manual ordering functionality, and is going to force folks to deal with loot, leaving us to wait for someone else to add the functionality via an extension......

 

Personally, I find it FAR easier to just grab ahold of a mod, drag it to where I want it, rather than coming up with some 'rule' that puts it where I want it, and then having to revisit said rule when I add additional mods...... Guess I will just stick with the tools I am using now. (and no, I didn't get in on the alpha test, but, find I have no desire to use the software in any event.)

[cvansickle]

"What I said is that we won't provide this functionality and I don't feel this is likely to change." -Tannin

 

Sounds like I'm sticking with MO2, then. Thanks for handling that off to others to handle, Tannin.

[MarchinBunny]

 

Here is a little exercise for everyone who is against LOOT and the sorting methods used in Vortex. Who is Vortex made for, you, or the community? I think the answer there is obvious, so I am going to assume you answered the community. When you are developing a software for the community and your goal is to bring accessibility to as many people as you can, how do you do it? You make it easier to use. You want people to be able to load it up, and just have it work with as little effort as possible. Sure, on the surface we all know some effort is going to have to be made, but making it easier where it can be, is never a bad thing.

I feel like a lot of people get so caught up in seeing themselves as an "advanced user" they often forget that this crap doesn't need to be advanced just because you want it to be. It's not a software developed just for people like you. It's a software developed for the entire community. I feel like NMM was always the software of choice for a large part of the community despite how advanced MO was specifically because it was more simple and easier to use.

 

In this case, I feel like Vortex is more advanced than NMM while still keeping it easy, if not easier. It's both advanced and easy and I think that is fantastic. You still have control over your load order and while it might not be as simple as dragging and dropping, in the long run, it's better for everyone. The process might be different, but it achieves what it needs to do and it does a better job of it. Not only that, but for those who don't want to fiddle with load orders, it is more likely to just work, and that is a great thing. That is what this community needs. Making things easier to use for your average user is always going to be a process that takes place in software development because that is how you make a good software.

 

Can it include the more advanced features? Absolutely. But you have to really give a good explanation as to why you need the feature over what is currently available to you. If what you need is the capability to move a mod in your load order, you already have that functionality. It's there, it's just a bit different. As I have said before, if you are moving tons of mods for very little reason in your load order, you are doing it wrong. I get people don't like being told they are wrong, but in some cases, you just have to accept that you are wrong. Better to accept and learn than to keep your pride and stay ignorant. The only mods you should ever be moving in your load order is when there is a conflict. After LOOT does its thing, I can assure you there will not be that many more mods to move. Take a look at the STEP guide. How many LOOT rules do they need after auto sorting? I think it's about 10. It's really not that many. And keep in mind the more rules submitted to LOOTs master list because more people are using it, the less you will even need to make your own rules.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if the amount of mods you need to move in your load order is 0?

 

I for one applaud Tannin. I am very happy with this move and I think he is doing an excellent job to really think about what the community as a whole needs to make modding more accessible here. He is thinking things through in a more long-term manner than a short one. He doesn't want more of the same. We already had NMM and MO. He is trying it improve, not repeat.

Are we here not part of the community as well?

 

In any event, Tannin has made his position clear, he isn't going to include manual ordering functionality, and is going to force folks to deal with loot, leaving us to wait for someone else to add the functionality via an extension......

 

Personally, I find it FAR easier to just grab ahold of a mod, drag it to where I want it, rather than coming up with some 'rule' that puts it where I want it, and then having to revisit said rule when I add additional mods...... Guess I will just stick with the tools I am using now. (and no, I didn't get in on the alpha test, but, find I have no desire to use the software in any event.)

 

You do realize you can create rules by dragging and dropping, at least from what I have heard. So I am not entirely sure what the issue is. The system Tannin has put in place will work fine. And it only needs to be done once and then it remembers those rules.

 

Even if it does take you a few more seconds, in the long run, it's going to save you far more time then after. So I really don't see the problem.

Also, why would you need to revisit the rule anytime you add a mod? The only time you would need to revisit a rule is if you added a mod that somehow conflicts with the rule you set.

To be frank, it sounds like you are lacking information on how this works.

 

Let's say you find Mod A needs to be loaded after Mod B. And for the sake of argument LOOT doesn't do it automatically. All you have to do is create a rule that states, Mod A loads after Mod B. If you add Mod C later it is not going to change that rule. So why would you need to revisit the rule?

 

[wim95]

After reading 11 pages I still don't understand:

 

90% of nexus users are fools and they can't manually sort the plugins. Then need to limit their ability.

Or

90% of nexus users are advanced users and they can write rules for LOOT. Then why limit their ability?

 

I'm in confusion.

[ousnius]

After reading 11 pages I still don't understand:

 

90% of nexus users are fools and they can't manually sort the plugins. Then need to limit their ability.

Or

90% of nexus users are advanced users and they can write rules for LOOT. Then why limit their ability?

 

I'm in confusion.

 

Once you accept it and know how to work with it, rules of Vortex are the best for both worlds.

[d81]

There is a lot of reasons why it's tough to understand why you want the old way back with Vortex.

1. It's really not needed. There is no good reason why you would need to sort your load order manually. You should only be sorting mods that need to be sorted for compatibility issues.

2. You have not actually once explained how LOOT is more trouble than it's worth for you. You just make the claim and you never actually get into why or how.

3. Whether or not you need LOOT is irrelevant. I don't need a calculator but I use one anyway because it saves time. Not needing something useful is never a good argument.

4. If you don't make load orders with many conflicts then why do you care so much about how Vortex is sorting? That literally means it doesn't take you long to sort your load order. Meaning you would not even need to create a whole lot of rules. I really cannot understand where you seem to see a problem here.

5. Technically, you are not losing any control. You can still order your mods however you want by creating rules. So if a person wanted to do it wrong, they still could.

6. No one said you specifically were doing it wrong. If you are ordering your load order by category, then yes you are doing it wrong. If you are not doing that, then we were not talking to you about doing it wrong. However, if you find LOOT so useless and more trouble than it's worth, I am really curious how exactly you do your load order differently. Load order is just about preventing compatibility issues and that is what LOOT attempts to do. It's not perfect, but it's certainly a lot better than doing it entirely manual every single time. Especially since you can set the rules you need and it will remember those rules for the next time you sort. Meaning it only needs to be done once.

 

 

Vortex is not providing a "new" way, so far as I can tell it's just LOOT conformed to the Vortex UI. I see this as a stripped down version of the old way that obfuscates what was once clear.

 

1. Your opinion.

 

2. LOOT does not effectively resolve conflicts in load orders. It requires more work than putting plugins where I know I want them - why make a rule, other rules relative to that rule, and so on when I could simply put the files where I want. LOOT cannot know how I want conflicts resolved because I am a human with particular goals in mind. LOOT cannot "resolve" all conflicts anyway, I have to use other software for that because it is more complicated than load order. LOOT relies on a list of rules made by other people for games that have a continuous stream of mod releases. These other people cannot know what I want to happen, so they are effectively controlling my game unless I use "rules". Instead of all this needless abstraction I can put the file where I want in the list and be done with it (in the end it is just a list). If the people that run the LOOT project can know where files should be placed in the list relative to other files that means I can know too, which means I can do it myself. That is a very, very brief rationale why I don't want to use it most of the time. Hopefully this explanation will suffice. If you think I'm crazy, fine. The solution has been made clear, wait for the API and inevitable extension.

 

3. It is not irrelevant, I use the Vortex too. Your calculator analogy makes no sense.

 

4. I was trying to say a lot in a brief amount of space (and still used too many words). "Conflict" in relation to Bethesda games is a big word. I'm not going spell out how Bethesda games load files, the information is available elsewhere. The problem is that I have to make rules and set priorities at all. As secondary functionality this could be useful, but as primary functionality it is cumbersome. I want my load order organized in a human readable way (the real load order, not the UI presentation of the load order), which is not "wrong" to do. Yes, load order is primarily about conflict resolution, but their are other concerns, such as I need to be able to understand the list with my human brain, which does not operate as a computer processor. If this is an issue for Tannin and others, and is absolutely ridiculous as has been implied, well I'm sorry, it's not to me. I am still having trouble understanding why this is a thing, other than the prevailing need in tech to "protect" people from themselves. I prefer to make mistakes and learn from them, it's much more fun. EDIT: I never said I don't have long complex load orders, just that I keep conflicts to a minimum. I know, generally, what is in the files and their archives and when there are conflicts I know how I want them resolved. Resolving those conflicts often has nothing to do with load order and requires modifying the files with other tools. A "conflict" often means I will only get one thing or the other in game unless I edit the files.

 

5. I have done it in Vortex and it is a tedious, unfriendly experience. Technically possible does not equal a good user experience.

 

6. Again, your opinion. Yes, Tannin has said I am misusing modding software by using it's provided functionality. Not me personally, but his statements apply to my use, even though he is framing (most of) his statements behind "90%" of (uninformed) users, wherever that figure came from. There is nothing wrong with organizing how files are loaded by the game in a human understandable format, as long as the primary organization is about conflict resolution. I prefer to understand what is happening and not view things through layers of abstraction designed to "protect" me. I could just not auto-sort and have the files in the list where I want, no rules necessary. I don't know why this is so controversial all of a sudden, seems normal to me.

 

As far as I am concerned the above only applies to load order, I think the "MODS" tab is great, aside from the bugs :laugh:. Managing overwrites in the manner provided by that section seems good, and the sorting the list by name and category works in a way I can understand easily (if the names were alphabetically sorted of course). But I also understand people wanting drag and drop there too, if they are coming from MO. Drag and drop is intuitive and fast. Then again, I usually don't bother with loose file mods or manually pack them in BSA/BA2 archives, depending on the game, so there's that. But managing mod archives is a different topic.

[AL12]

 

Adopting the Loot system as a primary system is a very good idea since it's the correct way of doing things and many users wan it to be like that (something that they don't have to care about if

not in rare cases). But for the veteran modders and mod creators having to set individual rules just to move a plugin in determined spot to test somethig, then removing thise rules and set up

new ones to move it again, its just not convenient enough. Now you have said different times that there is no reason to move a plugin in a particular spot because the underlaying problem is

a conflict not the position that matters, you are right and you then argued that rules is the right way to go because they are the appropriate answer to the underlying problem which is a conflict.

A agree to that, but what if I have a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins?

Wait wait wait.

a) It wouldn't just have to be a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins. It would have to be a plugin where loot fails to arrange it automatically in 15 cases! Even if loot was

throwing dice you'd have to have ~30 conflicts for your users to have to set 15 rules.

b) You do realise that Vortex has a utility to batch-set dependency rules? Setting 15 rules can still be done in a few seconds when you know what those conflicts.

c) And there is no fundamental reason why you can't put 15 rules for a plugin into the masterlist. Or 150.

d) What plugin is that? Can you give me one example of a plugin that has this many conflicts that loot doesn't auto-resolve correctly? Heck, show me one with 2.

 

As an example a modder is creating a plugin that alters all the vanilla NPCs and wants to test it in game for a second. Lets suppose he has already installed another 5 mods which each alter a specific vanilla NPC or a group of those creating conflicts with the new file since they happen to alter the same records. Loot can't know of the new esp because the modder hasn't even finished it and of course the modder does not want his file to have dependencies on the other mods.

Well this is just an example, a modder could be creating anything that has conflicting records with other existing mods. He just wants to test it not set up rules for loot yet, he will do that when he is finished.

It is pretty simple really, have loot mange the load order most of the time (together with all your custom rules) and just enable manual placement for a second to make a temporary adjustment that you are sure that will be reverted once you run loot again. Otherwise you will start mixing up permanent rules that you want to always be active with one time changes. There should be two levels, permanent level with rules and temporary level with manual adjustments.

I'm not advocating the people that don't want to use loot altogether here, just refusing on principle to adopt a valid system that will help the community seems stupid. I just wish Vortex would allow it to make the life easier for people.

The way I personally managed my loadorder was to run loot, add an occasional rule to loot for some particular things I wanted loaded differently, and use the MO drag and drop to just put things where I wanted If I had to load xEdit or Mator Smash or some other tool. After I was done I would run loot again and be very happy that everything returned to its place correctly.

 

Well you said your views Tannin and I can respect that so I can stop here with my reasons. You are not wrong and you chose the path that would be best for most users, it's just not convenient for everybody.

I hope that the Vortex development can continue smoothly and that you won't have to deal with so much ungratefulness in the future.