Giving up on Vortex for now

[Deleted3897072User]

As the OP of this thread, I feel it behoves me to draw it to some sort of close.

 

A conclusion seems to have emerged that there could usefully be an extension to Vortex that makes manual adjustment to load order easier. Then, regardless of one's feelings about how load ordering should be done, other people would have a choice and the sum total of happiness in the world would increase.

Let's move forward. Suppose we put our heads together and actually designed the extension? It's too soon to cut code (we don't know how, yet, anyway) but software design is generally done before coding so we could get started on that.

Seems to me, that we could at least mull over these things:

• What do we actually want it to do? (a specification of requirements)
• How would we know if it was doing it correctly? (a testing protocol for functionality)
• What do we actually mean by easier? (usabilty criteria)
• How would we know if it really was easier (a testing protocol for usability)

And, last but not least,

• Who is going to volunteer to do it?

Perhaps it would be worth starting a new thread for this - I think we have pretty much worn out this one :D

 

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

Do you really need numbers to back up the idea that most users on nexus don't know what they are doing?

 

Also, we understand you are not asking to get rid of any option, you just want it as an additional option. But we really need a very good reason for it because as of right now, sorting load order is already possible using rules and it even has a drag and drop functionality to create those rules. It's pretty quick, and not very complicated to do. Plus for those who really want to do it the old way, an extension is very likely to be made.

 

 

Good god, ...When someone is making "Argumentum ad Populum" arguments, I damn well need numbers, because it's very easy for people to claim "EVERYBODY doesn't like that feature", or "NOBODY wants that feature" like you've been doing the entire thread.

I would demand the same evidence from people claiming that "EVERYBODY wants Drag and Drop" and "Nobody likes LOOT", and "NOBODY wants Drag and Drop", and "EVERYBODY wants Loot"

See how easy that is?

 

I am getting very very very very very tired of having to deal with all of your Deflections, that keep derailing and obfuscating the discussion at hand, and dragging it off topic.

 

I'm starting to feel like I'm on Youtube, reading the comment section for a Justin Bieber video FFS.

 

Who is this "WE" you're referring to?

Are you part of the development team, are YOU the spokesman for Vortex?

What part of this thread qualifies you to refer to yourself as "WE"? Other than that you've decided to take up some self-appointed mantle and title, and you have assigned yourself as some gate-keeper that everybody has to go through in order to talk to Tannin?

WHY ARE YOU? AND WHO GAVE YOU THE TITLE YOU SEEM TO THINK YOU HAVE?

 

Good lord

 

STOP IT ALREADY, and let people talk, let people input their suggestions without having you constantly attacking them, we've heard you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again about how everybody elses opinion is terrible and only yours is great.

 

I posted in order to reword what is being discussed in an attempt to add to Arthmoor's post, and then out of the blue, there's your post with all this "WE" stuff in it, talking like you're all of a sudden a self-appointed faction leader for LOOT.

 

People are in this thread to share their opinions, wants, wishes, etc for Vortex, not for you to constantly jump in here like some self-appointed Thread Police and tell people that their opinions are crap because they don't agree with YOUR opinion.

 

Saying most is very different than saying everybody. Saying a minority is very different than saying nobody. You put them in quotations like as if people have been saying nobody and everybody, which isn't true. I know I certainly have not even though you make claims that I have been. In which case, I question your capability of actually reading and comprehending what has been written down. Here is an exercise for you. Point to a post from me and quote me where I have said ,everybdy wants loot. or nobody wants drag and drop. I am making a bet here right now, I have not said that ever.

 

I have not dragged the thread off topic. Do you even know what that term means, off topic? Responding to people who are replying about load order is very much on topic. If we want to be very very picky. Then the only person who is on topic is the OP and this thread should be closed at this point since his problem has been solved. If your claim I am off topic, then so are you. You are being a hypocrite.

 

We as in people. We as in more than one perosn. I am sorry you don't know what we means. There was no secret hidden meaning behind using the word we. It was just the word I used. It's not complicated, it's just english. A word to mean more than one person. No where does we imply I am part of a development team. That isn't what that word means. I don't need a qualification to use an english word. I have not assigned myself as a gatekeeper. Yuo don't have to a even respond to me if you don't want to. Tannin has replies to this thread several times all on his own. It's not like me responding prevents that from happening. To me it just sounds like you don't like I disagree and you are being a pissy child about it.

No one gave me a title, I simply disagree with a lot of things others are saying and this is called a forum where people get to discuss things, in case you were unaware of that.

 

I have not attacked anyone (Edit: Well till now because you are attacking me and taking what I have said way too personally.), I just have gave my feedback on areas I feel people should be aware of. Such as the fact this software has the capability for extensions and so if a feature is not in the beta release, there is a good chance someone will bring that feature. Vortex not having something now at this very moment, does not mean it will not later, yet you and a lot of other people are freaking out about it, like as if Tannin just killed your damned dog. He didn't.

 

I never said anyone's opinion was terrible. It amazes me how many things you need to lie about in order to make me look like the bad person.

 

Again with the word we. It's just a word to mean multiple people. I was replying to something you said that made me feel the word we was necessary as in there was more than one person who disagreed with you. Again, the word we does not have a secret meaning to it. You tell me to stop it, how about you stop it? (Edit 3: To be more specific in this regard, you said "WHY do people jump to the conclusion that if people say something negative about a thing that those people want that thing eliminated?" and that is why I used we. You implied it was more than one person, as in people and not just I. So I used the word we.)

 

People are here to share their opinion, you are correct. I hate to break this to you, I am a person with an opinion. Don't like my opinion? Feel free to ignore it. I also never said your opinion was crap. Stop trying to character assassinate by pretending I said things I did not.

 

Edit 2: Also, you don't need to caps lock so much. Calm down.

[sopmac45]

 

 

I can guarantee that from the 100% of the community, at least 90% do not know how to fix / resolve conflicts or do not have any idea which mode should override which, what does negative numbers in the load order means, where should we place a mod with too many conflicts, up or down ?, etc, etc, ... the remaining 10%, I can guarantee that 5% are people that talk about their knowledge making everybody believe they are masters but they are not; the remaining 5% are people who really knows everything about how to resolve conflicts, dealing with xEdit, CK, LOOT, etc, etc but .... I can also guarantee that from that 5%, perhaps only 1% really knows programing to the point they could discuss with Tannin face to face, so, at least I do not see in this whole thread, anybody that belongs to this 1% I am talking about.

 

You belong to a few. The great and vast majority of us, would prefer to download / install our mods, let Vortex / LOOT to sort and resolve conflicts between mods and play our games.

 

The day that Vortex make this automatically ( if not already ), the vast majority of the community ( 90% or more ) will be very happy.

 

I have no problem at all with whatever you do but remember that you do not belong to the great majority and Vortex has been developed to make it easier for the 90% and the remaining 10%.

Word of advice, when you're going to base your entire argument on an "Argumentum ad Populum" argument fallacy about some "Vast Majority" of people who want the same thing as you do, while claiming there's only a "small minority" of people who disagree with you, you really need to provide citations for those numbers.

 

If you notice, people who have been against LOOT, are only against LOOT being the ONLY OPTION for load order sorting, they aren't demanding to get rid of, and remove loot, they are only wanting OTHER OPTIONS in ADDITION TO LOOT.

None of these people are making wild and outlandish claims about "Vast Majorities" of people, or "Small Minorities" of people wanting one method over another.

 

WHY do people jump to the conclusion that if people say something negative about a thing that those people want that thing eliminated?

That is NOT the case here.

The people saying negative things about LOOT, only want the OPTION to sort their Load order using OTHER TECHNIQUES, IN ADDITION TO LOOT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do not need your advise ... by just looking at the Nexus forums, you can very well see how many players everyday post questions about CTD, what will be the right load order, how to fix load orders, etc, etc, etc, ..... based on those forums, you can easy see that the majority have problem ( and myself included ) to deal with the correct load orders, so, we need a program, in this case Vortex / LOOT to do everything that we can not do on our own.

 

Do you see in those forums experienced players talking about how good their load orders are ? No you don't, so yes, we are the majority with problems to deal with our load orders. I am not against manually dealing with conflicts in the way Vortex allow and if you know how to deal with conflicts, good for you and those who know but those are few in compare to the group that do not know how to deal with it, so I am very happy that Vortex offers both approaches to satisfy both groups.

 

And yes, the day that mod authors tell the LOOT developing team how to include the master files from their mods so LOOT will place those mods in the order the mod author recommend, we will have a better day. The day that we just click a button and automate our load order and Vortex or any other program resolve mod conflicts automatically, that day will be a better day and I think that we will have that soon.

 

Same principle of a car dealership : you enter to buy a car and you, as a customer, have the choice to go with a manual transmission or automatic. I prefer an automatic transmission and I have no problem at all with those who prefer a manual transmission. Vortex offers both. Excellent ! And I agree 100% with Tannin that dragging and drop a plugin in the load order is not the best choice to resolve conflicts. The way Vortex is setup, is the best choice because I tried to drag and drop several times via NMM and I could not resolve my mod conflicts just by doing that. To resolve conflicts I had to get into xEdit and to be honest, I could not because there are not manuals at all to teach, which records should be moved or not; even red records sometimes should not be moved because it is better to leave them where they are rather than move them and turn them to green. It is confusing, very confusing and not everybody know exactly what to do. Do you ? If so, why don't you put out a manual for everybody because so far, I have not seen any anywhere. If you are the master who knows everything about manually resolve mod conflicts, I challenge you to write down a short manual and let us know exactly what to do. I can bet my head that you don't !

 

Yes again, I prefer everything to be automatic by Vortex and I am against dragging and drop because that did not help me at all before. I trust Tannin and so far, I do not see anyone in this thread knowing more than him. Excuse me gentlemen, but if you are more capable than him, you have not just to convince him ( as he said ) but to convince me because even though I am not that intelligent as you are, I know how to identify the difference between who knows and who don't.

 

When Vortex is out for the entire community, there will be a lot of players ( from the great majority ) expressing their satisfaction about how easy playing their games is now in compare to before. Bravo Tannin !

[MarchinBunny]

 

The way Vortex is setup, is the best choice because I tried to drag and drop several times via NMM and I could not resolve my mod conflicts just by doing that. To resolve conflicts I had to get into xEdit and to be honest, I could not because there are not manuals at all to teach,

Well, if you had conflicts that needed to be resolved through xEdit, Vortex doesn't change that. Drag and drop load order works just as fine as doing it the new way, it's just you have to know what you are doing. Why you are putting the plugin in the spot that it's being placed in. While the new way automates it more for you and is designed so more people use LOOT making it so there is a better chance of a more well rounded masterlist.

 

Many people used LOOT even with the older system. STEP for example uses LOOT and it's rules to do the load order.

Anywa,y my point is if you needed to use xedit before, you still will have to as far as I am aware. No difference there.

[HeyYou]

 

 

The way Vortex is setup, is the best choice because I tried to drag and drop several times via NMM and I could not resolve my mod conflicts just by doing that. To resolve conflicts I had to get into xEdit and to be honest, I could not because there are not manuals at all to teach,

Well, if you had conflicts that needed to be resolved through xEdit, Vortex doesn't change that. Drag and drop load order works just as fine as doing it the new way, it's just you have to know what you are doing. Why you are putting the plugin in the spot that it's being placed in. While the new way automates it more for you and is designed so more people use LOOT making it so there is a better chance of a more well rounded masterlist.

 

Many people used LOOT even with the older system. STEP for example uses LOOT and it's rules to do the load order.

Anywa,y my point is if you needed to use xedit before, you still will have to as far as I am aware. No difference there.

 

Yes, This, I agree with. If you have a conflict that can't be solved by load order, then, it just doesn't matter which method you use to sort your mods, you are still going to need to take additional steps to sort the issues.

[HadToRegister]

Do you see in those forums experienced players talking about how good their load orders are ? No you don't, so yes, we are the majority with problems to deal with our load orders.

 

Thank you for proving that your "Majority" is not a "Majority", but instead is based on skewed data.

 

You're right, People don't post how great their load order is, because it's unnecessary, so people only post when they have problems.

That doesn't make the people who post, the "Majority" in any way, and once again, makes your argument an Argumentum ad Populum.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

The way Vortex is setup, is the best choice because I tried to drag and drop several times via NMM and I could not resolve my mod conflicts just by doing that. To resolve conflicts I had to get into xEdit and to be honest, I could not because there are not manuals at all to teach,

Well, if you had conflicts that needed to be resolved through xEdit, Vortex doesn't change that. Drag and drop load order works just as fine as doing it the new way, it's just you have to know what you are doing. Why you are putting the plugin in the spot that it's being placed in. While the new way automates it more for you and is designed so more people use LOOT making it so there is a better chance of a more well rounded masterlist.

 

Many people used LOOT even with the older system. STEP for example uses LOOT and it's rules to do the load order.

Anywa,y my point is if you needed to use xedit before, you still will have to as far as I am aware. No difference there.

 

 

@sopmac45 actually there's a really really good manual that teaches the ins and outs of Xedit, and it's found in the Fallout: New Vegas section of Nexus Mods, it's how I taught myself how to use it.

 

@Brabbit1987 there's always going to be conflicts that will need to be solved with Xedit, which is why I don't use LOOT, because in my experience, you can tell loot to generate "the perfect load order" 9 times, and you'll get 9 different load orders.So that's why I don't bother with it.

If it works for you, fine.

[HadToRegister]

 

To resolve conflicts I had to get into xEdit and to be honest, I could not because there are not manuals at all to teach, which records should be moved or not; even red records sometimes should not be moved because it is better to leave them where they are rather than move them and turn them to green. It is confusing, very confusing and not everybody know exactly what to do. Do you ? If so, why don't you put out a manual for everybody because so far, I have not seen any anywhere. If you are the master who knows everything about manually resolve mod conflicts, I challenge you to write down a short manual and let us know exactly what to do. I can bet my head that you don't !

 

 

Yes, I know what I'm doing in Xedit. I followed this wonderful tutorial, it applies to ALL versions of Xedit, and it's how I learned my way around the program.

 

Here you go, here's that manual you asked for, hope that helps. Be sure to give 'miax' and 'JustinOther' a kudos for this wonderful and insightful manual.

Also, be sure to ENDORSE, because this is one of the most helpful things on the Nexus, it's just so darned hard to find.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/38413

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

 

The way Vortex is setup, is the best choice because I tried to drag and drop several times via NMM and I could not resolve my mod conflicts just by doing that. To resolve conflicts I had to get into xEdit and to be honest, I could not because there are not manuals at all to teach,

Well, if you had conflicts that needed to be resolved through xEdit, Vortex doesn't change that. Drag and drop load order works just as fine as doing it the new way, it's just you have to know what you are doing. Why you are putting the plugin in the spot that it's being placed in. While the new way automates it more for you and is designed so more people use LOOT making it so there is a better chance of a more well rounded masterlist.

 

Many people used LOOT even with the older system. STEP for example uses LOOT and it's rules to do the load order.

Anywa,y my point is if you needed to use xedit before, you still will have to as far as I am aware. No difference there.

 

 

@sopmac45 actually there's a really really good manual that teaches the ins and outs of Xedit, and it's found in the Fallout: New Vegas section of Nexus Mods, it's how I taught myself how to use it.

 

@Brabbit1987 there's always going to be conflicts that will need to be solved with Xedit, which is why I don't use LOOT, because in my experience, you can tell loot to generate "the perfect load order" 9 times, and you'll get 9 different load orders.So that's why I don't bother with it.

If it works for you, fine.

 

I am not really sure I understand. xEdit and LOOT are entirely seperate from each other. Why would the use of xEdit change LOOT?

 

LOOT typically doesn't make a perfect load order, but it does usually save a lot of time faffing around with all the mods and having to order them individually one by one. I have never run into a situation where LOOT gives me different load orders each time I sort. In fact, that shouldn't happen. I will say this, I never use xEdit other than for cleaning, not because I don't know how, but it's just an extra layer of crap I really don't want to deal with. I just pick and choose mods that don't require me to have to alter records. I already spend more time modding than gaming as it is lol. So I don't really know if xEdit would cause something like that, I don't really understand why it would though.

[cvansickle]

Good god, ...When someone is making "Argumentum ad Populum" arguments, I damn well need numbers, because it's very easy for people to claim "EVERYBODY doesn't like that feature", or "NOBODY wants that feature" like you've been doing the entire thread.

I would demand the same evidence from people claiming that "EVERYBODY wants Drag and Drop" and "Nobody likes LOOT", and "NOBODY wants Drag and Drop", and "EVERYBODY wants Loot"

See how easy that is?

 

I am getting very very very very very tired of having to deal with all of your Deflections, that keep derailing and obfuscating the discussion at hand, and dragging it off topic.

Â

I'm starting to feel like I'm on Youtube, reading the comment section for a Justin Bieber video FFS.

 

Who is this "WE" you're referring to?

Are you part of the development team, are YOU the spokesman for Vortex?

What part of this thread qualifies you to refer to yourself as "WE"? Other than that you've decided to take up some self-appointed mantle and title, and you have assigned yourself as some gate-keeper that everybody has to go through in order to talk to Tannin?

WHY ARE YOU? AND WHO GAVE YOU THE TITLE YOU SEEM TO THINK YOU HAVE?

 

Good lord

 

STOP IT ALREADY, and let people talk, let people input their suggestions without having you constantly attacking them, we've heard you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again about how everybody elses opinion is terrible and only yours is great.

 

I posted in order to reword what is being discussed in an attempt to add to Arthmoor's post, and then out of the blue, there's your post with all this "WE" stuff in it, talking like you're all of a sudden a self-appointed faction leader for LOOT.

 

People are in this thread to share their opinions, wants, wishes, etc for Vortex, not for you to constantly jump in here like some self-appointed Thread Police and tell people that their opinions are crap because they don't agree with YOUR opinion.

I'd just like to second this... Thank you for saying what needed to be said to whom it needed to be said to, even if it did fall on deaf ears. Or blind eyes? Or however text falls unconsciously on to a person who disregards logic and reasoning.