Giving up on Vortex for now

[kanisiba]

I'm sad about Tannin doesn't arrive at the conclusion that We all have different ways of thinking. Vortex is official mod manager of the largest mod community in the world. So it should accept the idea of various senses of values about mod managing.

[Hilli1]

 

@Tannin42 Yes, I know I can display the install order, however all is in disorder and I want them all in a special ordering.

Let's imagine I have 5 texure mods: A, B, C, D, E. However the install order is E-D-C-B-A. How to get them to A-B-C-D-E ? With Vortex I have to set 4 dependencies (load B after A, load C after B, load D after C and load E after D) instead of simply drag and drop the files in the right position. At the next day I download mod BB and I want this mod to have between mod B and C. Then I would have to set the next rule for mod C (load C after BB) and a rule for mod BB (load BB after B). Now imagine you have to handle 1000 mods this way. This is why I said it is impossible to setup a large modlist this way.

 

But this is exactly the reason I removed manual mod ordering! install ordering your texture mods A B C D E without a conflict between them just for organisational purposes is wrong, it's misusing the feature. This is supposed to be painful because it's not what this feature is for. If I could I would make Vortex slap you for every time you do this. It's like complaining your toothbrush is bad for cleaning your floors.

 

If you want to visually order your mods this is a separate feature and we can talk about it separately but this thread is about load ordering, a feature for resolving conflicts and nothing else.

What you want and what you're asking for are not the same thing! You're asking me for free form load ordering so you can do visual ordering with it.

 

@Tannin42 Well, I'm a bit... disappointed from this answer. I can follow your argument when we speak about plugins. Regarding plugins I think your approach to handle the load order by setting dependencies is well thought and it makes sense.

 

However I can't agree when we speak about mod install order. In another post you wrote, 90% of the MO useres doing it wrong and that's why you removed the feature of manual mod ordering. How can you say so many users doing it wrong when there is not a different possibility to make a proper mod ordering? It is not wrong. There are reasons to do it this way. It is essential to have a proper mod ordering, at least when you installed more than 100 mods. I have installed way more than 1000 texture mods in MO2 (and we don't speak about all other mod categories here) and it is unthinkable to keep an overview without a proper mod ordering. Just for textures I have installed more than 30 fake mods to split the texture mods into different blocks.

 

To be clear, my approach to handle my mods in MO2 is like this:

1.) downloading the mod

2.) installing the mod

3.) mod ordering for organisational purposes (drag and drop it to the right place)

4.) activating the mod

5.) looking for conflicts

6.) solving conflicts by hiding files or by manual change of the position

 

I cannot see what should be wrong here. I handle my large mod list this way without problems for years. You say my approach to handle mods is wrong and Vortex should slap me every time I am doing it. O.k. It's funny to read but it does not help. I say my approach is the only possibility to handle large mod lists. Maybe I have no clue and there are different ways to make a proper mod organization. Well. Then tell me how to make it "right" please.

 

I really try to work with Vortex. I think it is worth to use it. However there are some things that need to be improved. I wrote a large post on the Vortex News page two days ago, trying to give you some constructive feedback. Solving the "mod ordering problem" is essential for me and I think for many other users as well.

 

[Ethreon]

 

 

 

 

@Tannin42 Yes, I know I can display the install order, however all is in disorder and I want them all in a special ordering.
Let's imagine I have 5 texure mods: A, B, C, D, E. However the install order is E-D-C-B-A. How to get them to A-B-C-D-E ? With Vortex I have to set 4 dependencies (load B after A, load C after B, load D after C and load E after D) instead of simply drag and drop the files in the right position. At the next day I download mod BB and I want this mod to have between mod B and C. Then I would have to set the next rule for mod C (load C after BB) and a rule for mod BB (load BB after B). Now imagine you have to handle 1000 mods this way. This is why I said it is impossible to setup a large modlist this way.

 

But this is exactly the reason I removed manual mod ordering! install ordering your texture mods A B C D E without a conflict between them just for organisational purposes is wrong, it's misusing the feature. This is supposed to be painful because it's not what this feature is for. If I could I would make Vortex slap you for every time you do this. It's like complaining your toothbrush is bad for cleaning your floors.

 

If you want to visually order your mods this is a separate feature and we can talk about it separately but this thread is about load ordering, a feature for resolving conflicts and nothing else.

What you want and what you're asking for are not the same thing! You're asking me for free form load ordering so you can do visual ordering with it.

 

@Tannin42 Well, I'm a bit... disappointed from this answer. I can follow your argument when we speak about plugins. Regarding plugins I think your approach to handle the load order by setting dependencies is well thought and it makes sense.

However I can't agree when we speak about mod install order. In another post you wrote, 90% of the MO useres doing it wrong and that's why you removed the feature of manual mod ordering. How can you say so many users doing it wrong when there is not a different possibility to make a proper mod ordering? It is not wrong. There are reasons to do it this way. It is essential to have a proper mod ordering, at least when you installed more than 100 mods. I have installed way more than 1000 texture mods in MO2 (and we don't speak about all other mod categories here) and it is unthinkable to keep an overview without a proper mod ordering. Just for textures I have installed more than 30 fake mods to split the texture mods into different blocks.

To be clear, my approach to handle my mods in MO2 is like this:
1.) downloading the mod
2.) installing the mod
3.) mod ordering for organisational purposes (drag and drop it to the right place)
4.) activating the mod
5.) looking for conflicts
6.) solving conflicts by hiding files or by manual change of the position

I cannot see what should be wrong here. I handle my large mod list this way without problems for years. You say my approach to handle mods is wrong and Vortex should slap me every time I am doing it. O.k. It's funny to read but it does not help. I say my approach is the only possibility to handle large mod lists. Maybe I have no clue and there are different ways to make a proper mod organization. Well. Then tell me how to make it "right" please.

I really try to work with Vortex. I think it is worth to use it. However there are some things that need to be improved. I wrote a large post on the Vortex News page two days ago, trying to give you some constructive feedback. Solving the "mod ordering problem" is essential for me and I think for many other users as well.

 

 

 

 

Doesn't MO allow you to shuffle mods around in any order so what way you install them doesn't matter?

[Tannin42]

@Tannin42 Well, I'm a bit... disappointed from this answer. I can follow your argument when we speak about plugins. Regarding plugins I think your approach to handle the load order by setting dependencies is well thought and it makes sense.

 

However I can't agree when we speak about mod install order. In another post you wrote, 90% of the MO useres doing it wrong and that's why you removed the feature of manual mod ordering. How can you say so many users doing it wrong when there is not a different possibility to make a proper mod ordering? It is not wrong. There are reasons to do it this way. It is essential to have a proper mod ordering, at least when you installed more than 100 mods. I have installed way more than 1000 texture mods in MO2 (and we don't speak about all other mod categories here) and it is unthinkable to keep an overview without a proper mod ordering. Just for textures I have installed more than 30 fake mods to split the texture mods into different blocks.

 

To be clear, my approach to handle my mods in MO2 is like this:

1.) downloading the mod

2.) installing the mod

3.) mod ordering for organisational purposes (drag and drop it to the right place)

4.) activating the mod

5.) looking for conflicts

6.) solving conflicts by hiding files or by manual change of the position

 

I cannot see what should be wrong here. I handle my large mod list this way without problems for years. You say my approach to handle mods is wrong and Vortex should slap me every time I am doing it. O.k. It's funny to read but it does not help. I say my approach is the only possibility to handle large mod lists. Maybe I have no clue and there are different ways to make a proper mod organization. Well. Then tell me how to make it "right" please.

 

I really try to work with Vortex. I think it is worth to use it. However there are some things that need to be improved. I wrote a large post on the Vortex News page two days ago, trying to give you some constructive feedback. Solving the "mod ordering problem" is essential for me and I think for many other users as well.

 

Please read my post you quoted again. I get the feeling people stop reading the moment they realise I'm not writing "yes, I'll do exactly as you ask". There was more in my last post than that.

 

3.) mod ordering for organisational purposes (drag and drop it to the right place)

6.) solving conflicts by hiding files or by manual change of the position

 

This is what I want to avoid: People using the same mechanism (installation order), once for organization (visual) and once to resolve conflicts. What do you do when the second move to resolve a conflict would break your organization? What if you have some follower mod that conflicts with a quest mod over a script file? Do you break your organisation or do you change how you resolve the conflict just so your organisation stays intakt?

The larger your mod list becomes the more frequent you end up with a conflict of interest between keeping your list in order and resolving your conflicts in the best way.

 

Just to repeat: I do not say you can't or shouldn't organize your list, I will be happy to provide features to do that, I just want to keep conflict resolution separate. And I absolutely can not comprehend how anyone can think this is a bad thing or that it's somehow less powerful than what other modding tools do.

[Hilli1]

@Tannin42. Thank you for your answer and taking the time. Very appreciated. And... apologies for bothering you.

This time your answer sounds much better to me. You are right when you say that conflicts between keeping the modlist in order and conflict resolving can happen. In a few cases this is true and I had to break the organisation, yes, or I decided not to use one of the conflicting mods. Well. I use my organisation system because of the lack of alternatives. I didn't say it's perfect. I understand you will offer a separate organisation feature at some day. I am very much looking forward to it.

No, I don't give up Vortex as some others. For now I use MO2 and Vortex parallel and I will watch the progress you make with Vortex. Your posts telling me that you are absolutely know what you are doing. There is a plan behind every decision you made. I am sure that you can improve Vortex in the way that at some day I can switch to Vortex completely.

[ttabakova]

Well I handle mods in MO by renaming them. Meaning, I add a tag to each modname, like "Texture mod A" becomes "[02. Core Textures] Texture mod A". A bit tedious to do for all mods, but when I review them in file folder I can also navgate there without problems.

So, when solving conflicts in Vortex, I sort mods (imported from MO with all their tagging) by name, then use Vortex dependency system to define their relations between each other. Same can be done using tags in Vortex, i guess.

Edited February 3, 2018 by ttabakova

[d81]

The conflict resolution seems great to me, not that I use a lot of conflicting mods :thumbsup: Definitely a massive step up from NMM, and I like it more than Wrye Bash. I haven't done much experimenting with it, but it looks like I can change what mod overwrites what mod on the fly, which is just AMAZING. And if per-file overwrites are on the horizon, well, I'm sold. I also love the way the hardlinking system tracks files and if I change files in the file system it's immediately reflected in Vortex. Seems very comprehensive so far...I'll keep trying to break it :teehee:

 

One complaint I have is that in the "MODS" tab when I sort by category, which is how I usually arrange things, the "Mod Name" column is not in alphabetical order. Some applications sort columns based on the last used column, but clicking "Mod Name" and then "Category" does not seem to resolve the problem. I don't know if it's sorted by download time or what, but it looks nonsensical.

 

I don't see a way to set custom categories, but maybe I'm just missing it or it hasn't been implemented yet. I use custom categories for F4SE mods (so I know what will be broken by game updates at a glance), to track various files related to my large mod, to keep track of what I've cherry picked from other mods to merge into my personal "tweak" mod, among other things.

 

I also noticed Vortex does not pick up my endorsements from the Nexus, or if it does it's not reflected in the UI. If I endorse a mod it does not update the icon for other downloads from the same page, meaning that if I endorse a mod that also has a DLC patch the icon is not changed for the DLC patch.

 

The only thing I want to get rid of as soon as possible is LOOT so I can manage my load order. I guess I'll have to wait a while for the inevitable extension. I've been following the comments by Tannin and others, but I can't let go of what I consider the "normal" way of doing things. I am baffled "normal" load order management is not available and so frowned upon...I had no idea. None of the points for why I need LOOT seem to apply to me at all, but I guess I'm just wrong and stupid? The comments posted thus far by Tannin imply that I just "don't get it". Then again, he compared installing software on Linux to installing an exe on Windows, so there's that (sorry, I can't let that one go :unsure:)

 

Edit: Figured out how to create new categories...the "Categories" button at the top with the "tag" symbol, imagine that. I can apparently have hierarchies of categories within categories, drag and drop to organize them, and rename existing ones (although I don't know why I'd want any of those things that yet).

Edited February 4, 2018 by d81

[Oxicoi]

Well gg on the Alpha. I'm sure only 50 people got to use it out of probably thousands. :)

[HadToRegister]

 

 

People rant a lot against this feature, but they do it within minutes of using Vortex for the first time.

 

 

Nah, I've used LOOT on and off for a long time, and hated every minute of it, and always ended up going back to Wrye Bash where I have control over my load order with drag and drop.

The Meta tags for load order sorting were the WORST thing about LOOT and was always the reason I would end up dropping LOOT, because it NEVER sorted my load order properly, and it was overly complicated to get a working load order with the meta tags.

Newbies are going to run into circular references when they try and set up mods to load after a certain mod, and it's very easy to do in LOOT.

 

I'm a visual person, I need to see my load order in the exact way it's loading, I'm bad with hidden data, like metadata for LOOT ordering

Some people are very visual, others aren't, hopefully there's a way both can be achieved.

[Stiffon]

 

 

 

People rant a lot against this feature, but they do it within minutes of using Vortex for the first time.

 

 

Nah, I've used LOOT on and off for a long time, and hated every minute of it, and always ended up going back to Wrye Bash where I have control over my load order with drag and drop.

The Meta tags for load order sorting were the WORST thing about LOOT and was always the reason I would end up dropping LOOT, because it NEVER sorted my load order properly, and it was overly complicated to get a working load order with the meta tags.

Newbies are going to run into circular references when they try and set up mods to load after a certain mod, and it's very easy to do in LOOT.

 

I'm a visual person, I need to see my load order in the exact way it's loading, I'm bad with hidden data, like metadata for LOOT ordering

Some people are very visual, others aren't, hopefully there's a way both can be achieved.

 

 

And on the flip side, I use LOOT all the time. Barring an occasional need to move 1 mod or another that LOOT doesn't do right, I love it and use it for everything. Time saver and it (mostly) works. There's 2 sides to every coin.