Simple manual load ordering plz

[HadToRegister]

@HadToRegister. I liszt you as a very helpful and honorable participant on these forums. You ask important, timely, and thoughtful questions. You persist in asking them until you get an adequate response. You are willing to help other forum members by sharing your own knowledge and experience. And finally, you express appreciation for useful information and insights from other forum members. I'm glad you're here.

 

Thank you, I really, really needed to hear that tonight.

I've been battling depression, I've recently lost a parent, and it looks like my oldest Dachshund will be leaving me soon.

"When it rains it pours"

[Grestorn]

 

Script don't access items with a fixed mod-ID. They include a dependency and use the dynamically returned plugin-id. And they do that even if a script is actively running and the order is changed while it's active.

 

And items in your save-game are automatically adapted as well.

 

Otherwise the whole system would break immediately, as soon as you change the slightest bit in the sort order. And that's just not the case.

If that were the case, then why does every mod author that has been around for quite some time caution against removal of mods halfway through a playthrough? Just for the fun of it? And why did the guy responsible for Papyrus say the same? Because maybe there is truth to it. The fact of the matter is: Even mods with a dedicated uninstall script leave scriptcorpses behind. Otherwise there would be no need for savegamecleaners.

 

 

Because REMOVING a mod is problematic, then all assets of the mod are gone, there are orphaned instances of objects and scripts lingering in the save game which CAN cause problems (but they usually don'). The save game can be cleaned up (i.e. those unreferenced and orphaned objects be removed) with tools like Fallrim.

 

But that's got nothing to do with MOVING a plugin in the load order. Try it yourself, move your plugin around and save your game, Fallrim will *not* report additional orphaned items or scripts.

 

People, please sometimes believe those people who have spent some time with this and did some modding themselves.

 

-----

 

@HardToRegister: I don't have a problem with you personally, and I'm sure as hell don't like to attack you or your opinion. Every person's opinion is, in my point of view, valued and important. Some people, like "Hey you" and even Arthmoor seem to stick to their opinion without even ever second guessing it, just out of pure stubbornness of being convinced that they're just right. They never even offer any real arguments.

 

I don't think that's the case with you, even though I don't agree with you on this issue.

 

But, let's pretend for a second, Vortex would offer such a feature. How would you propose it should work? The only way would be, to turn off the automatic sorting altogether and do it manually only from that moment on. And then maybe pop up warnings and errors, if some algorithm detects any serious problems caused by the current manually created sorting order.

 

As soon as the automatic sorting would be used even ONCE, the whole manual sorting would be void anyway, so unless someone reconsiders his decision to do it manually, he can NEVER go back again and can NEVER get any assistance to check if his manual order causes problems. Because automatic sorting doesn't just change the order of two plugins here and there, it's resorting the whole list using a set of rules and algorithms, not taking care of the previous sort order at all.

 

In theory, offering manual sorting that way could certainly be done, but it would require some considerable work in the UI department (the whole drag & moving of plugins and everything that goes along with it, the switching off the sorting, the warning messages and so on).

 

What would that feature accomplish? What would be the benefit? What could done or solved that way, which couldn't be done as it is right now? But on the other hand, how many more problems will it create if people just THINK they can do it better manually, but in fact just CAN'T (which is true for about 95% of the people, for sure)?

 

So in my opinion, the ONLY reason for such a feature is to quiet people who don't really understand how sorting works (sorry, no offence meant). If you really understand it, then you don't need manual sorting, you can use the tools and features the automatic sorting gives you to resolve everything (and it's not much work either). But people who DON'T understand sorting are usually also not fit to do it manually and get it right.

 

So again, what's the point?

[Rattledagger]

 

If that were the case, then why does every mod author that has been around for quite some time caution against removal of mods halfway through a playthrough? Just for the fun of it? And why did the guy responsible for Papyrus say the same? Because maybe there is truth to it. The fact of the matter is: Even mods with a dedicated uninstall script leave scriptcorpses behind. Otherwise there would be no need for savegamecleaners.

 

 

Let's say you're sitting in a chair reading this post and this chair has currently a big sign showing "2E" on the back of the chair. Assume now one of two things happen:

 

1: Suddenly all the pieces holding the chair together breaks at the same time.

2: Someone changes the sign to a sign showing "5F".

 

If 1 happens, you landing on the floor is at least my expected outcome and would guess most other reading this post will expect the same.

 

If 2 happens on the other hand, my expectation is you'll just contine sitting in the chair and being (blissfully) ignorant of whatever is currently showing on the sign.

 

Let's now say that instead of a real chair, you're using a mod that adds a chair and in-game your character is sitting in this chair when you save the game followed by exiting the game. You now do one of two things:

 

3: You uninstall the mod, wherefore removing the chair from the game.

4: You changes which order the mod is loaded by the game.

 

For 3, since the chair is removed, next time you startup the game and load your last save my expectation isn't much different from 1 and the real chair, your character crashing to the floor is one possibility but your character continue sitting on a now non-exisiting chair is not expected.

 

For 4, the outcome is less clear when you loades last save. Either the load-order has no effect at all, or alternatively something bad happen. My guess is for most mods changing the load-order has no effect, the chair is still present afterwards and your character is still sitting in the chair. Still maybe where does excist one mod adding a chair what depends on the load-order and changing the load-order will lead to problems.

[HadToRegister]

 

But, let's pretend for a second, Vortex would offer such a feature. How would you propose it should work? The only way would be, to turn off the automatic sorting altogether and do it manually only from that moment on. And then maybe pop up warnings and errors, if some algorithm detects any serious problems caused by the current manually created sorting order.

 

As soon as the automatic sorting would be used even ONCE, the whole manual sorting would be void anyway, so unless someone reconsiders his decision to do it manually, he can NEVER go back again and can NEVER get any assistance to check if his manual order causes problems. Because automatic sorting doesn't just change the order of two plugins here and there, it's resorting the whole list using a set of rules and algorithms, not taking care of the previous sort order at all.

Are you one of the Developers of Vortex?

You couldn't just take my other post for the Positive Post about the "Manage Rules" post that it was, you have to keep things going.

I'm sick of discussing this, but I'll add one more rant anyway, because you keep doing this in the Vortex forums, constantly dragging out threads unnecessarily to epic proportions like the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the Iliad or the Mahabharata.

The following rant is to addressed to you.

And I'm far beyond caring anymore

 

Sorry, but this is pure and absolute BS.

It's not like a "You can never go back once you manually sort your load order after using LOOT.

If that were true, then LOOT would have a HUGE popup that would say *DANGER, you are attempting to manually sort your load order after using LOOT*

The Loot Help File, and Loot Github, and Loot webpage would CONSTANTLY be warning about not manually sorting your load order after using LOOT because it's some kind of Irreversible high-speed train to DOOM, DESTRUCTION, and UNCONTROLLABLE ACNE, and HAIRY PALMS..

Anybody who has used LOOT knows that you can manually sort, and use loot again, and it will sort your load order as if you never manually sorted it.

-Otherwise-

 

If LOOT CAN'T sort my load order after a Manual Sort, as people claim, then WHAT PURPOSE DOES THE LOOT MASTER LIST SERVE?

Isn't that where LOOT gets all it's info from?

 

The whole point of LOOT, is to apply it to an Unsorted, or Manually sorted load order to "Fix" it, yet people are trying to convince me that LOOT doesn't know what to do if you manually move a couple of mods after applying the LOOT suggested Load order.

Well, that's what the Masterlist is for right?

 

If you're claiming that LOOT won't be able to properly sort after a mod or two has been moved in the load order manually, then you're saying that LOOT is a bad program, because for some reason, it can look at an Unsorted or Manually sorted Load order and fix it, by using the Masterlist, but once a mod is moved AGAIN, then LOOT cannot deal with it, despite STILL having the Masterlist it used the first time as reference to sort the load order.

 

So tell me, what in god's name, would stop LOOT from using the MASTERLIST, Once Again, to Properly sort my load order, after I Manually Sorted it, or moved one or two mods?

The more "You can't move mods after you sort with LOOT" arguemnts there are, the more it sounds like LOOT isn't a good tool for sorting load orders.

Who wants a Sorting Tool that can handle sorting a complete Load Order, but falls to pieces when one or two mods are moved?

 

Just another example of that "Cherry-Picking" I mentioned where people ignore things like the sentence above.

I'm willing to bet that most people who use the standalone LOOT, actually do this...

 

1. Run LOOT

2. Look at the Proposed load order that LOOT suggests

3. Takes notes.

4. Cancesl LOOT's suggested load ordering.

5. Drags and drops SOME of the things LOOT has suggested.

6. Runs LOOT again to see if anything changed

7. Cancels the suggested sorting LOOT suggested again.

Even the official documentation of LOOT tells you how to edit the load order if you don't agree with LOOT, or LOOT gets it wrong.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of hard-coded LOOT rules (In Italics) in Vortex that were submitted incorrectly to the Masterlist, which is making it impossible to correctly and accurately sort my load order because LOOT is convinced that putting Better Settlers BEFORE Scrap Everything is some Cyclic Sort Problem. which in turns gives me some cyclic sorting error because thanks to these built in rules I can't seem to get rid of that error that someone submitted to the Masterlist, and because of that, I can't get Eli's Armor Compendium, Scrap Everything, Better Settlers and VIS-G to play nicely, and actually sort properly, even though NONE of these Mods are Masters to each other, and should be freely sortable, but thanks to the built in META LOOT rules, they CANNOT sort Properly.

I click on Better Settlers and there's a bout 5-6 mods listed in italics that Better Settlers is forced to LOAD AFTER, which in turn, makes it impossible to move Armorsmith Extended BELOW Better Settlers, because LOOT has forced a dependency on other mods that don't make sense, which in turn, causes Vortex to complain there's a Cyclic Mess involving |Scrap Everything - Ultimate.esp, Eli's Armour Compendium.esp, VIS-G Item Sorting.esp, Armorsmith Extended.esp, Better Settlers.esp|

 

What I should do is post my load order and see if you can fix my load order problems, by downloading the same mods, installing them, and seeing if you can work it out for me.

OK....rant over, long night, holiday weekend, not very sober...

 

Anyway, I really don't care anymore, the only reason I'm still arguing is because YOU won't STOP.

 

[Grestorn]

Wow, just wow.

 

Personal attacks aside, please explain to me why the existance of the masterlist would prove that there can be some manual sorting....

 

It is basically just a list of rules which plugins have a higher or lower priority (or 'group' in the current version), which plugin relies on which, and what plugin HAS to be placed before or after certain other plugins.

 

That's it. Nothing more.

 

I've never said that LOOT cannot sort after you've done a manual sort. What I (and Tannin) keep saying is that all your manual sorting will be thrown out of the window once you let Loot do its sorting.

 

Same happens in NMM too, by the way.

 

A common scenario, especially in NMM or ModOrganizer would be, that you sort automatically once, change a certain placement of one mod, and then let LOOT sort again. Then it might be that LOOT sees no reason to change anything and even will keep you manual placement (if there's no rule in the masterlist contradicting your manual placement). That's probably what you're looking for.

 

But in all honesty, chances are close to 100% that your manual change of the placement doesn't have any effect anyway. And if it does, then it would STILL be a much better idea to create RULES that make sure your placement sticks, no matter what other changes will be done later to the plugin list.

 

Simply said: Rules are just the better way of forcing a specific, 'manual' sorting.

 

No, I'm not a Vortex developer. Does that mean I'm not allowed to voice my opinion? Are you only accepting opinions which contradict the one of the Devs? I think quite strongly about this, granted, and I can't stand irrational arguing. And I won't be silenced by people who can't stand my way of arguing or point of view. And I especially don't appreciate personal attacks to 'prove' a point.

[UrizenDe]

But that's got nothing to do with MOVING a plugin in the load order. Try it yourself, move your plugin around and save your game, Fallrim will *not* report additional orphaned items or scripts.

Did it once with this mod. Imagine my surprise when I ran into 5 Deathlords instead of the expected 3. Before you try it out, that was way back in 2012 on an older script version ( 0.8 methinks, as I downloaded it to work alongside Monster Mod ).

 

People, please sometimes believe those people who have spent some time with this and did some modding themselves.

Who says I haven´t spent time modding? Who says I haven´t run into issues arising from practices I now caution against?

[HeyYou]

 

 

Script don't access items with a fixed mod-ID. They include a dependency and use the dynamically returned plugin-id. And they do that even if a script is actively running and the order is changed while it's active.

 

And items in your save-game are automatically adapted as well.

 

Otherwise the whole system would break immediately, as soon as you change the slightest bit in the sort order. And that's just not the case.

If that were the case, then why does every mod author that has been around for quite some time caution against removal of mods halfway through a playthrough? Just for the fun of it? And why did the guy responsible for Papyrus say the same? Because maybe there is truth to it. The fact of the matter is: Even mods with a dedicated uninstall script leave scriptcorpses behind. Otherwise there would be no need for savegamecleaners.

 

 

Because REMOVING a mod is problematic, then all assets of the mod are gone, there are orphaned instances of objects and scripts lingering in the save game which CAN cause problems (but they usually don'). The save game can be cleaned up (i.e. those unreferenced and orphaned objects be removed) with tools like Fallrim.

 

But that's got nothing to do with MOVING a plugin in the load order. Try it yourself, move your plugin around and save your game, Fallrim will *not* report additional orphaned items or scripts.

 

People, please sometimes believe those people who have spent some time with this and did some modding themselves.

 

-----

 

@HardToRegister: I don't have a problem with you personally, and I'm sure as hell don't like to attack you or your opinion. Every person's opinion is, in my point of view, valued and important. Some people, like "Hey you" and even Arthmoor seem to stick to their opinion without even ever second guessing it, just out of pure stubbornness of being convinced that they're just right. They never even offer any real arguments.

 

I don't think that's the case with you, even though I don't agree with you on this issue.

 

But, let's pretend for a second, Vortex would offer such a feature. How would you propose it should work? The only way would be, to turn off the automatic sorting altogether and do it manually only from that moment on. And then maybe pop up warnings and errors, if some algorithm detects any serious problems caused by the current manually created sorting order.

 

As soon as the automatic sorting would be used even ONCE, the whole manual sorting would be void anyway, so unless someone reconsiders his decision to do it manually, he can NEVER go back again and can NEVER get any assistance to check if his manual order causes problems. Because automatic sorting doesn't just change the order of two plugins here and there, it's resorting the whole list using a set of rules and algorithms, not taking care of the previous sort order at all.

 

In theory, offering manual sorting that way could certainly be done, but it would require some considerable work in the UI department (the whole drag & moving of plugins and everything that goes along with it, the switching off the sorting, the warning messages and so on).

 

What would that feature accomplish? What would be the benefit? What could done or solved that way, which couldn't be done as it is right now? But on the other hand, how many more problems will it create if people just THINK they can do it better manually, but in fact just CAN'T (which is true for about 95% of the people, for sure)?

 

So in my opinion, the ONLY reason for such a feature is to quiet people who don't really understand how sorting works (sorry, no offence meant). If you really understand it, then you don't need manual sorting, you can use the tools and features the automatic sorting gives you to resolve everything (and it's not much work either). But people who DON'T understand sorting are usually also not fit to do it manually and get it right.

 

So again, what's the point?

 

Holy crap, I am being lumped into the same category as Arthmoor? That ain't good.........

 

So, let me clarify my position, if you would be so kind.

 

Lets say I am setting up a new load list, and have two (or more...) mods that deal with the same aspect of the game, but, slightly differently. I am not sure which way I want them to load, so, do my due diligence, and want to test my decision. It would be nice if I could just grab one of the mod, stick it where I want it, and run my tests. If I like it, go back in, set a rule that will keep it there. If I don't, let Vortex put it where it wants. Quick, painless, and easy.

 

Sure, I *could* just set a rule to have a load where I want, and if I decide I really don't want it there, delete the rule.... or change it, or whathaveyou. It's just easier FOR ME to simply grab it, put it where I want it, and call it good. Vortex could then highlight that mod, (maybe in some angry red color) indicating that it has been manually placed, and won't necessarily stay there the next time auto-sort is ran.

 

A simple feature, that should meet folks needs, that won't profoundly affect how vortex works.

[Grestorn]

@UrizenDe

 

I can't comment on what happened with that mod or your experience with it. To me, this sounds more like in inadvertent overwrite of a record (because of another mod loaded later overwriting certain values of the same record) and not the direct consequence of the actual change of load order.

 

Load ordering (which mod becomes before or after which other) DOES matter, this is what this whole thread is about.

 

The absolute index of a mod hardly ever matters. If it would, modding and changing the mod config in an ongoing-game would be practically impossible. I've been playing a long time with my current SkyrimVR setup (lvl 66 right now), and I've been adding (and sometimes even removing) mods like crazy, just because I like experimenting. No issues with the changed load order, whatsoever. The issues I have could always be tracked to conflicts with mods (for which I created a patch myself) or some unfortunate issues with a mod not working properly if introduced at the wrong time into the ongoing game. But that's about it.

[Grestorn]

 

So, let me clarify my position, if you would be so kind.

 

Lets say I am setting up a new load list, and have two (or more...) mods that deal with the same aspect of the game, but, slightly differently. I am not sure which way I want them to load, so, do my due diligence, and want to test my decision. It would be nice if I could just grab one of the mod, stick it where I want it, and run my tests. If I like it, go back in, set a rule that will keep it there. If I don't, let Vortex put it where it wants. Quick, painless, and easy.

 

Sure, I *could* just set a rule to have a load where I want, and if I decide I really don't want it there, delete the rule.... or change it, or whathaveyou. It's just easier FOR ME to simply grab it, put it where I want it, and call it good. Vortex could then highlight that mod, (maybe in some angry red color) indicating that it has been manually placed, and won't necessarily stay there the next time auto-sort is ran.

 

A simple feature, that should meet folks needs, that won't profoundly affect how vortex works.

 

 

Understood.

 

In general, if I'm afraid that two mods are overwriting the same things, so that the order in which they're loaded does matter, I'd rather use xEdit to sort it out the way I want.

 

But ok, I can see why you would like to try and test. However, you have to be aware that issues might not be apparent, especially not when just doing a short test. So your way of dealing with this is nowhere a recommended procedure. I'd trust the LOOT masterlist, which deals with the most glaring conflicts. Look out for patches or do a patch myself.

 

Frankly, even though I see your "use case", I hardly see it's that useful to spend so much time to implement it in Vortex. Especially since creating and removing a rule is hardly more work than dragging the mod up or down manually. But that's Tannin's decision in the end. I certainly would hardly ever use that feature myself.

 

Have you tried Vortex at least now? Otherwise I find it hard to accept your opinion on how difficult it is to create rules.

[HeyYou]

 

 

So, let me clarify my position, if you would be so kind.

 

Lets say I am setting up a new load list, and have two (or more...) mods that deal with the same aspect of the game, but, slightly differently. I am not sure which way I want them to load, so, do my due diligence, and want to test my decision. It would be nice if I could just grab one of the mod, stick it where I want it, and run my tests. If I like it, go back in, set a rule that will keep it there. If I don't, let Vortex put it where it wants. Quick, painless, and easy.

 

Sure, I *could* just set a rule to have a load where I want, and if I decide I really don't want it there, delete the rule.... or change it, or whathaveyou. It's just easier FOR ME to simply grab it, put it where I want it, and call it good. Vortex could then highlight that mod, (maybe in some angry red color) indicating that it has been manually placed, and won't necessarily stay there the next time auto-sort is ran.

 

A simple feature, that should meet folks needs, that won't profoundly affect how vortex works.

 

 

Understood.

 

In general, if I'm afraid that two mods are overwriting the same things, so that the order in which they're loaded does matter, I'd rather use xEdit to sort it out the way I want.

 

But ok, I can see why you would like to try and test. However, you have to be aware that issues might not be apparent, especially not when just doing a short test. So your way of dealing with this is nowhere a recommended procedure. I'd trust the LOOT masterlist, which deals with the most glaring conflicts. Look out for patches or do a patch myself.

 

Frankly, even though I see your "use case", I hardly see it's that useful to spend so much time on it. Especially since creating and removing a rule is hardly more work than dragging the mod up or down manually.

 

Have you tried Vortex at least now? Otherwise I find it hard to accept your opinion on how difficult it is to create rules.

 

Nope. Haven't even downloaded it. Of course, at this point, I am not shuffling load lists in any of my games either. That may change in the not so distant future. (upgrade the PC time. :) )

 

I don't recall saying it was difficult to create rules. I simply said that manual drag and drop was easier FOR ME. Just a personal preference.

 

Create a patch? Sure, that's an option, however, if it is only a few aspects of 'overlap' that I am dealing with, more work than I really care to get into, when simply changing load order will deal with the issue.