Trump

[HeyYou]

 

 

 

I didn't vote for Trump, but it's tiresome just how irrational the media (and it's listeners) are about him. No one wants to hear grown people whine. Not me anyways. Besides, the sky isn't falling yet. He's definitely got character issues, but it doesn't help if you go overboard about him.

Just in the past week Trump has intentionally shut down all negotiations and existing peace plans with both North Korea and Iran. John Bolton strikes again. He's never been elected to a public office in his entire life yet has absolutely no problem sending countless thousands of other people's kids to their deaths, to fight for Halliburton and ExxonMobil.

 

The sky won't be falling for most Americans until it actually does. It's what happened in Ger... oh forget it. :wink:

 

What is the point of talks with NK in any event? Not like we haven't talked to them before, gave concessions, reached an agreement, only to have it broken in six months. This is standard procedure for NK. Belligerence, talks, concessions, good for a little while, then, right back to belligerence. We have seen this MANY times. It ALWAYS goes the EXACT same way. Why on earth would you expect this time to be any different??

 

 

It's a good question. The main good thing that would come out of it is for SK and JP mostly.. and the US further holding influence in that part of the Pacific (as opposed to China).

 

I hate to say it, but the people of NK themselves are secondary. It would be GREAT to do something that benefits them, but that's not the main goal, I think. And what the Kims (Son/Father/Grandfather) know is that they can't really coexist in this scheme. They sit fat on top of the hill and thrive on being like gods to their people. There's little reason they'd ever want to change that. They're nowhere close to some other despots in history, who felt a threat from their own people either. Sometimes you could convince these types to leave by giving them refuge somewhere. But from what I can tell, North Korea is completely normalized. So the Kims have little to fear. I don't know what you could really do to convince that Peace is truly for their benefit.

 

But that's just the problem. Nothing good comes out of it, all we accomplish is kicking the problem down the road for a (short) period of time. The whole idea of previous talks was to prevent NK from developing nuclear weapons, and their requisite delivery systems. That has obviously failed miserably. Talks/concessions/etc would only serve giving NK even more time to consolidate their tech, and reinforce their position. It's patently obvious that the NK people are NOT going to 'rise up', and depose the kim regime. It's also obvious that the kim regime will only honor any agreement as long as it serves THEIR purposes. Trouble there is, what they want tends to change with some frequency...... so the agreements are only doing what they want for a short time, then we go back to the beginning of the cycle. Again.

 

Here we have a case where diplomacy simply does NOT work. Various governments just want to bury their heads in the sand, and pretend that isn't the case, which really isn't helping the situation.

[Lisnpuppy]

And you have Bolton who wants to first strike or regime change in NK and that doesn't help.

 

NK has wanted to have a place on the world stage for 3 generations now. They aren't going to change their positions. They have only to gain if Trump goes talks to them. Trump doesn't do diplomacy, he doesn't know how and they have gutted the diplomatic force the US has build. There isn't anyone to advise Trump even if he would listen.

[TheMastersSon]

Can someone please explain what Kim did, specifically, to cause Trump to suddenly back out of our advanced settlement talks in Korea? They removed the propaganda loudspeakers at their artificial and ridiculous border for crying out loud.

 

More importantly, considering Bolton, and for the sake of our children's lives, please ask WHO STANDS TO FINANCIALLY BENEFIT FROM NOT SETTLING THE KOREAN CONFLICT? It's close to the very same group of companies and people who were the sole financial benefactors of Iraq. Trillions spent to convert a stable totalitarian craphole into a permanent stronghold of chaos and global terrorism.

 

It's simply hard for me to fathom the national stupidity. Contrary to the prior opinion, imo this is about what the Korean people wish for themselves, and nothing else. If the prevailing opinion is that Kim holds majority support in his country, we're stuck in Cubaland, and simply wishing his regime out of power won't accomplish anything. If he's willing to agree to a monitored election from all Koreans, and to abide by its decision, imo somebody has to explain why he'd refuse it, unless he really is just a thug pretending to have majority support in his country. The truth is either all or almost all the Koreans I've known over the years have claimed Kim was popularly supported in Korea, these people were from both north and south. If it's true, imo our moral and practical options are very limited. As mentioned in another discussion I don't see why the same settlement model that was used for Vietnam can't be used for Korea. A few market reforms later and we've been doing business with Vietnam without issue since 1995. Let the Korean people rule themselves. Period.

Edited May 26, 2018 by TheMastersSon

[kthompsen]

Can someone please explain what Kim did, specifically, to cause Trump to suddenly back out of our advanced settlement talks in Korea? They removed the propaganda loudspeakers at their artificial and ridiculous border for crying out loud.

 

More importantly, considering Bolton, and for the sake of our children's lives, please ask WHO STANDS TO FINANCIALLY BENEFIT FROM NOT SETTLING THE KOREAN CONFLICT? It's close to the very same group of companies and people who were the sole financial benefactors of Iraq. Trillions spent to convert a stable totalitarian craphole into a permanent stronghold of chaos and global terrorism.

 

It's simply hard for me to fathom the national stupidity. Contrary to the prior opinion, imo this is about what the Korean people wish for themselves, and nothing else. If the prevailing opinion is that Kim holds majority support in his country, we're stuck in Cubaland, and simply wishing his regime out of power won't accomplish anything. If he's willing to agree to a monitored election from all Koreans, and to abide by its decision, imo somebody has to explain why he'd refuse it, unless he really is just a thug pretending to have majority support in his country. The truth is either all or almost all the Koreans I've known over the years have claimed Kim was popularly supported in Korea, these people were from both north and south. If it's true, imo our moral and practical options are very limited. As mentioned in another discussion I don't see why the same settlement model that was used for Vietnam can't be used for Korea. A few market reforms later and we've been doing business with Vietnam without issue since 1995. Let the Korean people rule themselves. Period.

 

Kim got mad that SK and the US were practicing military drills, and then threatened to pull out of talks. He wanted to signal that WE'RE in his good graces, not the other way around. So Trump decided to not to play along and just pulled out himself.

 

It's just more games, and each side testing each other's "neediness". I can't really blame Kim for trying, because the US always has blinked first when his dad was in charge.

[TheMastersSon]

Can you explain the purpose of organizing military drills during peace settlement negotiations? Are we Germany yet?

[HeyYou]

Military drills are planned and scheduled YEARS ahead of time. It's not like we just decided on the spur of the moment to try and annoy lil' kim.

[TheMastersSon]

Oh please. Even our military admits they were provocative:

 

"Col. David Shoemaker, the commander of the US 8th Fighter Wing who was overseeing this year's drills, said he was aware of the heightened tensions around the drills, but argued they were necessary.

"This is training that we need regardless of the political situation," he said. "It's training that has gone on for decades."

 

And there it is: our military dictating to our civil politicians when and where their training takes place and is necessary. It's been the root problem with our military since the mid-1960's. The truth is, it is not up to our armed forces to dictate to the American people (you know, the ones who pay their salaries) when and where their services and operations are required.

 

This is entirely beside the blaringly obvious and simple point that it would have been a show of good faith to cancel the drills, even if they were planned.

Edited May 27, 2018 by TheMastersSon

[kthompsen]

I don't know the details of these military exercises. I bet anything could have set him off though. Even routine base functions. I live and grew up around military bases. They're always training in one way or another.

[TheMastersSon]

I meant to include the article link from my earlier quote, it gives details about "Max Thunder":

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/asia/us-south-korea-max-thunder-drills-intl/index.html

 

In this case the drill is an annual waste of U.S. taxpayer money.

[kthompsen]

Fair enough. They could have definitely eased the situation without those drills, but it would seem that talks may in fact commence again. Strange. Kim is obviously in need of something, to even do any of this. I just don't know what it is. The bigger picture is between the US and China, not North Korea. China themselves must be putting pressure on him. Why? I'm not sure of that. Despite people thinking Trump is a nitwit, he actually seems to be weaving a tangled web here with multiple players. No doubt China would prefer resolving trade relations with the US. This is all probably part of it.