Trump

[Lisnpuppy]

 

My daughter actually had difficulty getting an ID (even though she had a current PASSPORT which required all of the exact documentation to get but could not be used as it was not in the last 30 days and actually, weirdly does not have your address on it) due to the fact she lived at the time, between my home, her father's home and school. The catch was needing something showing her permanent address (people usually have a utility bill or pay stub) which she did not have.

 

So yeah, getting ID can actually be difficult due to the request for documentation the state requires. I let my drivers lapse a few years ago and was also almost in the same boat since all the utilities are in my husband's name.

 

So it actually is kind of a pain and involves way more people than you would imagine.

 

I think a lot of the difficulty is a recent development. Laws have changed on requirements for various ID purposes.... and it sure as hades hasn't gotten easier......

 

What's funny is, I was able to renew my drivers license, and plates on my truck, by mail..... go to some website, enter the appropriate information, click submit, and a few weeks later, my new license and tags for the truck showed up in the mail.

Yeah. I can do it online or at a kiosk. I even got my driver's license renewal reminder in the mail and I may be able to do it online (which is a godsend in many ways.) Getting it the first time is a problem or if you can not renew but in person. Though they say you need all the same documentation again for renewal which is kinda stupid. If you are a woman you must provide proof of name change also, if you are married (than goodness I kept my name.) My husband renewed his license online but it was mid pandemic so I dont know if I have to go in.

 

The restrictions changed some years ago I think in response to the domestic air requirements. You have to have ID as a passport, a federal ID or a state ID which meets certain requirements. That still doesnt change the fact they ate difficult for some people to get and always have been. It is pricey to get a license or ID or REALid which is the federal version. Birth certificates aren't so easy to get in WV. It is not an "open" state so only certain people can get them from the state. You can not obtain them in the county you have to come to Charleston or do an online signed PDF. 30% of West Virginians lack access to broadband internet. You can print and mail the application, if you have access to internet and a printer. Many folks in rural West Virgina don't even own cellphones because they do not have signal in their homes. ( The drive from Charlestton to Morgantown (where West Virginia University is located, a school with 30,000 students) is 2 1/2 hours on a major US interstate. For about 30 min we lose radio and cell phone signal which is kind of nuts. They can not have internet through satellite for similar reasons (ie no towers and no dishes because there is a big damn mountain blocking everything.) There is 1 cable/internet provider in WV that is not satellite which is Suddenlink. If you only get internet the slowest and cheapest is starts at 35 bucks a month (without fees and taxes, which probably based on my bill makes it over 40) and even Suddenlink is not available in all rural areas of WV.

 

We have basic cable and the package which includes things like ESPN, History channel, Cartoon Network etc. No premium sports channels, no HBO or thinks like that. With internet we pay more than $200/month. I been trying to get my husband to drop all but internet and just pay for like Sling or something which offers most everything we watch and for cheaper. Still, in WV $35+ is too expensive for some if they have access at all.

 

So many must travel to Charleston where the state's Vital records is located. I'm fortunate cause I live about 20 min from Charleston. WV is a bigger state driving wise than people think due to the remoteness of some areas and the available roads.

 

The US has not had any significant fraud since the "vote early and often" days. Signature match technology is extremely good as is people taking a second glance. Six states vote ONLY by mail and it runs smooth as butter. The fact both congress and the Supreme Court are knocking down voter rights left and right is pretty disturbing.

[HeyYou]

Thing is, you need some flavor of ID to do just about anything here in the US. Wanna buy alcohol? Better have some kind of ID. Folks don't seem to have trouble getting alcohol..... so how is requiring an ID to VOTE 'onerous'? Yeah, during the pandemic, things got a bit strange.... MONTHS just to get an appointment to go to the DMV, but, I registered to vote when I changed my address on my drivers license. That never expires here. (voter registration) That was 9 years ago.

 

I think closing polling stations, or, having very limited hours, is more onerous than the demand to have some type of ID. I know that kind of thing has been happening, and only in certain neighborhoods in some of the larger population centers.... I have ONE place where I can go and vote, and it serves the entire township. (roughly 36 square miles) Of course, if there are 10,000 people living in that area, I would be surprised. :) (VERY rural where I live.) I generally have to wait at most, an hour, to go and vote.

 

Here in Michigan, we have different 'levels' of ID. I still have the basic box stock drivers license. Then we have the 'star' license, which is required to get on a plane, and we have an 'enhanced' license, that will get you across the canadian border. But, as I have no interest in flying anywhere, nor in going to Canada, my license is just fine for my purposes.

[Deleted92948618User]

I'm Canadian, but hold dual citizenship. When I was living and working in the US, I had a Washington state drivers license and was constantly solicited to register to vote. So, on a whim, I did. It went through without a hitch. I got my voter registration card with my precinct data and was a registered to vote in Washington. I never did vote, but just the same, I had valid ID and could have voted no problem.

 

Valid IDs do not stop anyone from voting unless you control the access to ID's. And THAT is what is happening. Several jurisdictions have made getting an ID almost impossible. First, they cut the number of locations available for obtaining an ID back to urban and suburban areas, increasing travel for rural folks to obtain Identification. These offices are then scheduled to only open be 0900 to 1600 M-F, requiring folks to take time from work to get an ID. Busy offices are made appointment only and calls from certain area codes are always told "no appointments available". Then they add requirements, like certified birth certificates, official post (bills, bank statements, etc) with both your name and address, proof of employment, fingerprints which are supposed to be used to ensure you ain't a felon, but which frequently get lost and must be retaken, and the list goes on. The whole effort is designed to deny valid ID to certain sectors of the population which are poor, rural and not quite white enough, thus keeping them from the polls.

 

And THAT is why IDs are onerous.

[HeyYou]

I'm Canadian, but hold dual citizenship. When I was living and working in the US, I had a Washington state drivers license and was constantly solicited to register to vote. So, on a whim, I did. It went through without a hitch. I got my voter registration card with my precinct data and was a registered to vote in Washington. I never did vote, but just the same, I had valid ID and could have voted no problem.

 

Valid IDs do not stop anyone from voting unless you control the access to ID's. And THAT is what is happening. Several jurisdictions have made getting an ID almost impossible. First, they cut the number of locations available for obtaining an ID back to urban and suburban areas, increasing travel for rural folks to obtain Identification. These offices are then scheduled to only open be 0900 to 1600 M-F, requiring folks to take time from work to get an ID. Busy offices are made appointment only and calls from certain area codes are always told "no appointments available". Then they add requirements, like certified birth certificates, official post (bills, bank statements, etc) with both your name and address, proof of employment, fingerprints which are supposed to be used to ensure you ain't a felon, but which frequently get lost and must be retaken, and the list goes on. The whole effort is designed to deny valid ID to certain sectors of the population which are poor, rural and not quite white enough, thus keeping them from the polls.

 

And THAT is why IDs are onerous.

Where I am, you register to vote at the same place you get your drivers license/license plates. They ask if you want to register, yep. This is the same place you need to go if you need a state ID, (as opposed to a drivers license....) They run on bankers hours. (9-5, m-f) Some are open later on Wednesdays. The 'appointment only' thing only showed up with pandemic, and getting an appointment is a tedious exercise, regardless of what color you are. Not to mention that appointments end up being scheduled a month or more from when you called.

 

For a vote have any meaning, there MUST be some way to ensure that only those eligible to vote, are the ones voting. How else do you propose to do that without some variety of ID? Or, do you propose we just let anyone walk in and vote, in as many locations they can get to in a day?

[colourwheel]

 

For a vote have any meaning, there MUST be some way to ensure that only those eligible to vote, are the ones voting. How else do you propose to do that without some variety of ID? Or, do you propose we just let anyone walk in and vote, in as many locations they can get to in a day?

 

For one thing, voting should be made easier not harder with less restrictions that don't impact entire communities. There could be many ways to do this without requiring a photo ID or drivers license. One way would be simply having a system where you can just give them the last 4 digits of your social security number and even have them take a finger print. If you have voted and participated in past elections and simply missed one local election, you shouldn't have to register again. Things should be made easier. It's not like they make everyone renew their drivers license every year.

 

If Republican controlled legislators are being so creative on trying to prevent voter fraud the focus shouldn't be on in person fraud since it's extremely rare to begin with. You would think they could easily find cost effective ways to make things easier for everyone to participate instead. But that isn't their goal when you take a look at what they have been doing since 2013. If the Republican Party could get away with adding new restrictions to voting they will do it and they have. I remember back before the 2016 election in my state one of the state legislators that represented where I lived purposed a new voting bill that would completely eliminate anything but in person voting and the polls would only be open on election day. Thankfully that piece of legislation never got close to passing. It's obvious anywhere that the republican party has control of the state legislature, they will do anything they can to pass as many restrictions as possible for voting for the real purpose of trying to shrink the electorate.

 

These new voting laws that the southern states are currently passing will do nothing to prevent any future fraud, because there has never been a huge problem before with in person voter fraud in our country.

Edited July 18, 2021 by colourwheel

[HeyYou]

But then you would be requiring them to have a social security number......... and where do they get one? From the government..... (I don't know if they are assigned at birth, sure weren't when I was born. I had to go to the SSA, and get one.)

 

We ALREADY have the infrastructure in place for voter registration. Have had it for decades, it just needs to be more accessible. More locations, hours that allow folks to get their, without having to make any special arrangements, etc.

 

This issue is a LOT like gerrymandering. The folks in power get to make the rules, redraw districts, etc. Both parties do it. Both sides use these methods to hopefully tilt things in their favor. Which has also been going on since elections were a thing. :)

 

So, what's the solution? Really, there isn't one. Politicians, by their very nature, are going to want to stay in power, once they get there. They will use every trick in their book to do so, regardless of the ethical/moral issues surrounding what they are trying to do. Expecting politicians to do anything at all to make elections 'more fair', is like asking a scalper to stop gouging his customers. Just ain't gonna happen. And don't think this is just a racial thing either. The dems redraw districts so dems in each district are majority, or, as close as they can get, republicans do the same thing. Every couple years, districts get redrawn..... (mainly in larger population centers, don't think things have changed here in a century or more.) Race is only a coincidental statistic.

 

This is what happens when you hand basic control over how elections work, to the people that want to get voted in.

[colourwheel]

 

But then you would be requiring them to have a social security number......... and where do they get one? From the government..... (I don't know if they are assigned at birth, sure weren't when I was born. I had to go to the SSA, and get one.)

 

We ALREADY have the infrastructure in place for voter registration. Have had it for decades, it just needs to be more accessible. More locations, hours that allow folks to get their, without having to make any special arrangements, etc.

 

This issue is a LOT like gerrymandering. The folks in power get to make the rules, redraw districts, etc. Both parties do it. Both sides use these methods to hopefully tilt things in their favor. Which has also been going on since elections were a thing. :smile:

 

So, what's the solution? Really, there isn't one. Politicians, by their very nature, are going to want to stay in power, once they get there. They will use every trick in their book to do so, regardless of the ethical/moral issues surrounding what they are trying to do. Expecting politicians to do anything at all to make elections 'more fair', is like asking a scalper to stop gouging his customers. Just ain't gonna happen. And don't think this is just a racial thing either. The dems redraw districts so dems in each district are majority, or, as close as they can get, republicans do the same thing. Every couple years, districts get redrawn..... (mainly in larger population centers, don't think things have changed here in a century or more.) Race is only a coincidental statistic.

 

This is what happens when you hand basic control over how elections work, to the people that want to get voted in.

 

Here is the irony, You are required to have a social security number to even get a state ID or Drivers License to begin with. I was simply looking into a way to make voting easier since already in most states in the south require a photo ID just to participate in the electoral process to begin with. If it came down to it you could just be required to leave your finger print. Anything to make voting easier instead of harder.

 

Also I disagree with your comment on gerrymandering. Even though redistricting is done by both political parties it has no impact on disenfranchising ones ability to vote. Even if a state is oddly drawn out to favor one party over the other that doesn't effect ones ability to vote or not. Also districts can't just be drawn out at will every election cycle and the demographics of a state change drastically enough over time where gerrymandering isn't indefinitely effective.

Edited July 18, 2021 by colourwheel

[HeyYou]

True, gerrymandering doesn't make it harder/easier to vote, just makes you vote mean less. Or not at all. It's also true it doesn't happen 'all the time', but, it happens often enough to be effective for a while.

 

I would expect there would be those that would object to being fingerprinted to vote as well. :) Especially those with a criminal bent. Their prints may not be on file with the police..... but, if they are required in able to vote.... they might just be effectively turning themselves in for some crime or other. Bar law enforcement from using the data?? Possible, but, once they are on file.... laws are easy enough to change.

 

Besides, why introduce some whole new system? that will require developing/purchasing the hardware/software for it to work, when we already have a system that would be easy enough to change, to make it work. Just get the politicians fingers out of it. That would solve a host of problems right there. Either that, or federalize ALL elections, and let them deal with it, and leave the locals out of it altogether. Including any laws they might be inclined to pass.

[Lisnpuppy]

So every single election that did not require an ID or even to have your voters ID card at the polls was fraud? Again, in West Virgina all the stuff that made the election a fraud in the eyes of the Trumpians happened here also. Did not hear one single word saying the 68% vote for Trump was fraudulent.

 

How can anyone vote absentee if one has to present ID? Despite Trump's best attempt to say otherwise vote-by-mail and absentee is the same thing. It is handled the exact same way and in most states' the requirement is the same. Some states you can only absentee vote for certain reasons but the actual voting poll slip and the processing is exactly the same.

 

The entire reason people are supposed to have ID is to keep people who should not vote from voting or to prevent someone from filling out multiple ballots. Yet this election and all others I'd say at least since WWII have had no significant fraud. The have been studied time after time after time after time. They have been studied by pollsters, democrats, republicans, universities, non-profits, etc and only the very rare small town election is in any way an issue and even that is rare.

 

So, if it worked fine this time, why change? In Georgia , who recounted 3 times and found no issues, whose republican govenor and secretary of state and election runners went out of their way to tell Donald Trump and his band of idiots that no, there were no issues and no fraud over and over before, during and after the recounts. But then they immediately went out of their way to get Georgia law changed to make it harder to vote in all the ways we have discussed. If it ran so well...which they themselves attested, .why do we need to change all these things? The voter signature matching system worked and worked well in Georgia and everywhere else. If it worked and there was not fraud in typically red Georgia who voted for not only a democrat for president but 2 democrat senators, against all odds in a middle of a pandemic, then why do they feel the burning need to change? Because of the massive black turnout and grass roots voter registration and voting campaign led by Stacey Abrams, who just happened to just barely lose the governorship to the then secretary of state who did not step down while running for office, while he ran the election as secretary of state, the same election in which he ran for governor. Think that through a sec. He ran the election, in which he was running, an election which he ran as secretary of state. I'm not saying there was fraud here. She lost by 55,000 votes not 5000. But, you have to wonder why no republican had issue with Kemp not recusing himself which he could have easily done and should have done. Suddenly after a race which Kemp himself found no issues after 3 recounts for president and a resulting runoff which was won by two new democrats (after a recount of course) the secretary of state said there were no issues, the voting board admin said there were no issues that there is a need to change the law making it significantly harder for one portion of the population to continue voting. To change fundamentally how they do elections. Spoiler alert: It isn't Brian Kemp and his friends and family.

 

So no, at surface level it seems kinda ok to think you need ID. Do you really think that would stop someone who really wanted to commit voting fraud? Does it stop kids from drinking underage? And ultimately, if the elections work without significant or election-changing fraud or other issues and have for a long while then why do we need to change it? If there has been a problem all this time would not the republicans control of congress also be in doubt? The times they won the presidency even when they lost the popular vote every damn time also be in question?

 

So no, I don't find favor with ID laws for voting when a much less egregious way has been going on a long time which worked without our elections being called into question every time.

[HeyYou]

I have yet to participate in an election that I did NOT have to show ID in order to vote...... and I've been voting for a long time....... :)