Trump

[colourwheel]

 

 

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Also yes, anyone can be racists and be subjugated. But systemic racism is a thing in the US. If you look at the history of this country you can see it shine clearly.

 

Everyone says that "institutional racism" in America is a lie. But if anyone bothers to look closely, America's FHA, as a prerequisite to making Federally guaranteed loans, once required neighborhoods to have bylaws which precluded people from buying houses unless they were members of the Caucasian race. These blatantly racist covenants still exist in every American State, but are particularly prevalent in Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Louisiana, Georgia, Missouri, Virginia, West Virginia, and North and South Carolina.

 

And house ownership is just ONE example. Entire communities were labeled "red zones" if there was a single resident who wasn't "of the Caucasian race". Red zones got fewer federal monies for schools, roads, electricity, water, sewage and waste disposal, as the money was all relegated to communities which had enforced covenants.

 

And people like Mitch McConnell have the audacity to say there is no systemic racism in America. Hell, red zones still exist. Only now, they are call "distressed neighborhoods" or "ghettos" or "slums" or "poor neighborhoods", as if the inhabitants created the problem because the FHA wouldn't loan them or their parents the money to finance a decent home in Levettown.

 

 

This is exactly why we need to educate the youth to how legal policies have shaped our country today due to racism. If the country doesn't start with teaching exactly how things in the past have effected the way people live today then nothing will ever change and systematic racism will continue on even when we are all gone and dead. Policies aside, most racism is inherited from parents to children whether you realize it or not. The only way to break this cycle is through education and this is the main focus of "Critical race theory". But the problem is some speculate that forcing schools to teach this will inherently perpetuate racism. Mostly those who feel that all "Critical race theory" teaches is how HeyYou probably feels about it... "Every ill that has befallen minorities in this country is white folks fault".

 

But if unless people don't want systematic racism to stop or don't even want to try to do anything about it, what is really the alternative? Are we just to pretend it doesn't exist and pretend everything is ok because you don't think it personally effect you or me?

 

Back during world world II over 60,000 Japanese American citizens were forced into internment camps. Integrated in these internment camps were a total of over 150,000 who were imprisoned simply because they were just Asian. America has a long history of racism that isn't always directed towards African Americans. American policies have effected many Races over time. You can currently look at recent policies that target different ethnics groups from the middle east to the southern border.

 

You have to face the facts that over the history of our Republic a majority of legal framework has been crafted specifically by White Americans. If you believe this would be teaching kids that white people are to blame for a lot of this, I wouldn't say you would be wrong but certainly the purpose of "Critical race theory" isn't to teach that only white people can be racist. In fact a lot of policies over the many decades have turned minorities to be just as racists towards other racial groups.

 

Yes, teaching "Critical race theory" to our youth will dramatically effect generations after and probably completely change the nation we know today. But that is basically the point. That is if we really want to do anything about systematic racism in our country to begin with.

Edited July 26, 2021 by colourwheel

[HeyYou]

Even so, in order for that tactic to have any effect at all, it is going to be generations before you see anything really change. In the meantime, things are going downhill at an ever increasing pace. I don't think we have the time for education to be the sole tactic we employ to combat racism.

 

And then we have those that have been discriminated against for generations, with their own attitudes, and prejudices. In the typically american way, politicians think the problem can be solved by throwing money at it. They call it 'targeted economic development'. The problem with that though, is that the areas most in need of it, are the areas business is least interested in expanding in to. No one wants to open a business in a high crime area, and folks don't want to go to work there either. Insurance rates are higher, which tends to make the cost of doing business in those areas prohibitively expensive. Hire the locals? Great idea, trouble is, they are making more money doing somewhat less than legal things already. So, no real motivation to get a 'real' job. Sure, some would actually go for it, but their peers would make it challenging..... It's been tried before, and has failed miserably. Sets a bad precedent.

 

So, what's the solution? I sure don't have one. You can change the laws, but, it isn't as easy to change peoples attitudes, and THAT is where we really need to begin. But, once again, that would be a process that would take generations to have any positive effect.

 

But then, America isn't the only country to have these problems either. Seems our neighbor to the north has gone down some of the same roads that we have.... maybe not quite to the same extent, but, still..... There are other examples as well. And it ain't just white people doing the exploiting. The problem is far more widespread than is currently admitted. Which doesn't bode well for any kind of change.

[colourwheel]

Even so, in order for that tactic to have any effect at all, it is going to be generations before you see anything really change. In the meantime, things are going downhill at an ever increasing pace. I don't think we have the time for education to be the sole tactic we employ to combat racism.

 

And then we have those that have been discriminated against for generations, with their own attitudes, and prejudices. In the typically american way, politicians think the problem can be solved by throwing money at it. They call it 'targeted economic development'. The problem with that though, is that the areas most in need of it, are the areas business is least interested in expanding in to. No one wants to open a business in a high crime area, and folks don't want to go to work there either. Insurance rates are higher, which tends to make the cost of doing business in those areas prohibitively expensive. Hire the locals? Great idea, trouble is, they are making more money doing somewhat less than legal things already. So, no real motivation to get a 'real' job. Sure, some would actually go for it, but their peers would make it challenging..... It's been tried before, and has failed miserably. Sets a bad precedent.

 

So, what's the solution? I sure don't have one. You can change the laws, but, it isn't as easy to change peoples attitudes, and THAT is where we really need to begin. But, once again, that would be a process that would take generations to have any positive effect.

 

But then, America isn't the only country to have these problems either. Seems our neighbor to the north has gone down some of the same roads that we have.... maybe not quite to the same extent, but, still..... There are other examples as well. And it ain't just white people doing the exploiting. The problem is far more widespread than is currently admitted. Which doesn't bode well for any kind of change.

 

No one was claiming that racism would be gone over night simply by starting to educate the youth suddenly. It would likely take generations but at least it's progress and doing something proactive that would likely produce results over time instead of simply treating systematic racism like we have treated climate change. If we wait too long without doing something things become problems where we are forced to just adapt to and that's currently where we are. Something like "Critical race theory" should have been taught decades ago.

 

And no suddenly teaching "Critical race theory" won't solve all the problems we have with racism either. Likely won't solve a lot of the things you listed above. But at least it will teach future generations to critically think about future policy making that will hopefully not make us repeat history and perpetually fuel the attitudes and prejudice that we have now.

 

Changing people's attitudes and behavior does take time. Where that begins is through education. Teaching "Critical race theory" is specifically for this purpose.

 

A century from now, Caucasians will most likely be the minority in America. Maybe you don't specifically care about this but say some organization that is specifically the predominantly minority in the country and happens to commits a future terrorist attack on our soil over 100 years from now. It could be your posterity who is suddenly rounded up and put into internment camps simply for being a certain race.

Edited July 26, 2021 by colourwheel

[HeyYou]

Personally, I think it is already too late. Which is also typical. Why do today, what we can put off indefinitely? Just like climate change.

 

It isn't even going to take a century for whites to be outnumbered here in the states, I think that is going to happen within a few decades.....

 

Teaching critical race theory isn't necessarily a solution either. We may be doing more harm than good. (teaching future politicians just how to marginalize certain segments of their population.) We won't know that for quite some time either though. Doing something, JUST to be 'doing something', rarely turns out well in the end.

 

Of course, all of this assumes that teaching people that something is happening, will change their minds about it. From what I have seen from the human race, prejudice and discrimination aren't really the exception, more like the rule. In just about any country, the majority will take advantage of/look down upon, the minority, in some way, shape, form, or manner. I don't see education changing that. Ever.

 

I fully expect that discrimination, and marginalizing minorities, will continue to be a thing, until enough time has passed, and we have intermixed our bloodlines enough, that we are all essentially 'one race'. Yeah, that is LONG way off in the future, assuming we last that long..... Which I seriously doubt. We are already doing a very fine job of making our planet uninhabitable. And I am not just talking climate change either.....

[xrayy]

@heyyou - i don't know if you do and how often you do self reflection. do you read your own posts sometimes again ? if you would do some things are obvious.

- you put things always in perspective - your comfortable perspective.

- you often question things without searching or offering any own solutions.

- you assume many things out of your comfortable personal perspective and use the result to add pseudo arguments to play down good and reasonable suggestions of others instead of contributing own constructive proposals and to show others that they are superior or at least a valid option.

 

it is always this same schema - tell me if i'm wrong.

 

my opinion: as long as you breath it is never too late for anything.

maybe you have some good or better ideas. if so, don't forget to include them in your posts.

if you have no better ideas why posting and playing other ideas down without arguments?

[HeyYou]

@heyyou - i don't know if you do and how often you do self reflection. do you read your own posts sometimes again ? if you would do some things are obvious.

- you put things always in perspective - your comfortable perspective.

- you often question things without searching or offering any own solutions.

- you assume many things out of your comfortable personal perspective and use the result to add pseudo arguments to play down good and reasonable suggestions of others instead of contributing own constructive proposals and to show others that they are superior or at least a valid option.

 

it is always this same schema - tell me if i'm wrong.

 

my opinion: as long as you breath it is never too late for anything.

maybe you have some good or better ideas. if so, don't forget to include them in your posts.

if you have no better ideas why posting and playing other ideas down without arguments?

I am old, crotchety, cynical, and cranky. :)

 

I post, because this is the DEBATES section. It isn't the 'everyone agrees on everything' section.

 

Are my opinions not valid? Does discussing things from my perspective offend you? It IS my perspective after all. I've been around for quite some time, have experienced the best, and the worst... of humanity, (well, maybe not the absolute worst, but, some pretty nasty individuals.....) and I just don't have a real high opinion of the human race as a whole. Nor do I see a 'bright future' for us. Not at the rate we are going. Shall I add 'pessimist' to my self-description?

[gnarly1]

Bin Laden was already planning 9/11 even before operation infinite reach. He had been wanting to attack the US for quite some time previously.

If you properly read my response and the quotation I included, nowhere does it imply that Bin Laden started planning 9/11 as a result of the Al-Shifa attack. In fact, quite the opposite.

 

 

Granted, infinite reach was likely a mistake, but, one person died immediately, and sudan had to do something else about medicines for a while.

Way to downplay a despicable decision that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, not just one person. You falsely accused me in the GMAD thread of misrepresenting your statements, then you casually whitewash an atrocity.

 

You're objectively a colossal hypocrite.

 

Your 'Sudan had to do something else about medicines for a while' comment is so asinine and dismissive it's like framing 9/11 by saying that New York had to make do without two of its tallest buildings for a while. Except that lack of medicine causes suffering as well as loss of life.

 

Maybe the fact that Sudan is a poor African country and that life was so good for you under the Clinton administration have rendered you incapable of sympathy and incapable of acknowledging that Clinton, under the same criteria that you provided for Bush, should also be considered a war criminal.

[HeyYou]

 

Bin Laden was already planning 9/11 even before operation infinite reach. He had been wanting to attack the US for quite some time previously.

If you properly read my response and the quotation I included, nowhere does it imply that Bin Laden started planning 9/11 as a result of the Al-Shifa attack. In fact, quite the opposite.

 

 

Granted, infinite reach was likely a mistake, but, one person died immediately, and sudan had to do something else about medicines for a while.

Way to downplay a despicable decision that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, not just one person. You falsely accused me in the GMAD thread of misrepresenting your statements, then you casually whitewash an atrocity.

 

You're objectively a colossal hypocrite.

 

Your 'Sudan had to do something else about medicines for a while' comment is so asinine and dismissive it's like framing 9/11 by saying that New York had to make do without two of its tallest buildings for a while. Except that lack of medicine causes suffering as well as loss of life.

 

Maybe the fact that Sudan is a poor African country and that life was so good for you under the Clinton administration have rendered you incapable of sympathy and incapable of acknowledging that Clinton, under the same criteria that you provided for Bush, should also be considered a war criminal.

 

Show me any proof of the impact of the attack. Aside from the immediate results of a building disappearing.

 

9/11 killed somewhere around 3000 people. That's just a bit more than 1. And that doesn't even touch on those that died later, as a result of that attack.

 

A quote from you:

 

 

The implication being that if Clinton had acted differently, 9/11 might never have happened.

 

9/11 was gonna happen even without that particular attack.

 

Love the insults and character disparagement. That's an awesome argument. Really gets your point across.

[gnarly1]

Show me any proof of the impact of the attack. Aside from the immediate results of a building disappearing.

Unlike you, I post my sources - you can find it in the source I linked, which clearly you didn't bother reading. Maybe you don't post your sources given that time here in the debates forum you re-checked your source and found you'd got it wrong - can post the example if you like.

 

9/11 was gonna happen even without that particular attack.

Do you have proof of that? No because you can't possibly evaluate what would have changed or not changed in a world in which the attack didn't happen. But regardless, it's irrelevant as your erroneous rebuttal was regarding the timing of the 'planning', not the execution. Here's what you wrote:

 

 

Bin Laden was already planning 9/11 even before operation infinite reach.

 

 

Love the insults and character disparagement. That's an awesome argument. Really gets your point across.

When someone accuses you of something and then does that same thing, there's a term for it: hypocrite. It's not an insult or a disparagement; it is the word that is used to describe the behaviour. So my calling you a hypocrite is a statement of fact.

 

Regarding the other 'disparaging' comment, how else would you explain the mindset of someone who obstinately can't seem to conceive that wiping out the stocks of an anti-malarial drug in addition to many other essential medicines for an entire African nation might lead to further deaths and unnecessary suffering?

 

What's tragically ironic, and only serves to prove the point I made in the last sentence of my previous post, is that you seem to be able to conceive of such consequences when American lives are involved:

 

And that doesn't even touch on those that died later, as a result of that [9/11] attack.

I honestly can't believe that someone would lack the self-reflection to not realise the obvious double standard here.

 

But perhaps you summed it up fairly accurately yourself:

 

and I just don't have a real high opinion of the human race as a whole.

Edited July 27, 2021 by gnarly1

[colourwheel]

Back on topic, Trump never did give the American people any sort of a meaningful concession speech. So I personally think Jimmy Fallon did a great job putting together one for us.