Load order sorting is terrible

[AugustaCalidia]

  On 7/27/2019 at 3:24 PM, FlashFatman said:

Hey there, Just popping back to say I did reinstall Vortex and got it to work. It took a while to figure it out but it worked for me. Then I installed MO2 to see the difference and MO2 is probably easier to sort with, so I would suggest that if you want to constantly add and delete mods and change your load order then MO2 is your manager. If you have a stable and large list I would stick with Vortex.

What sorting are you talking about? Sorting plugins, mods, or both?

[HadToRegister]

  On 7/27/2019 at 7:30 PM, Augusta Calidia said:

 

  On 7/27/2019 at 3:24 PM, FlashFatman said:

Hey there, Just popping back to say I did reinstall Vortex and got it to work. It took a while to figure it out but it worked for me. Then I installed MO2 to see the difference and MO2 is probably easier to sort with, so I would suggest that if you want to constantly add and delete mods and change your load order then MO2 is your manager. If you have a stable and large list I would stick with Vortex.

What sorting are you talking about? Sorting plugins, mods, or both?

 

 

Plugins most likely, that's what everybody complains about because of bad habits brought about by NMM

[FlashFatman]

Yeah, I'm just talkin' about Plugins like Had to Register says. MO2 is just easier to navigate for that stuff. I guess it's closer to NMM that way.

[Fnhatic]

I dare any Vortex developer who thinks their method works fine to go install the Fallout 4 mod "HORIZON" and sort it using their rules.

 

1) Horizon is a massive overhaul of nearly every single tiny aspect of the game. This means that the way the load order needs to be built is:

 

*Everything that isn't Horizon*

*Horizon main file*

*Official Horizon supporting files*

*Unofficial Horizon patches for everything that is above Horizon*

 

2) LOOT is horrific, apparently nobody has ever heard of Horizon because it just slaps this into the top of the load order. It is 100% guaranteed to break the mod if you leave it there. This is one of the most popular mods for FO4 and LOOT has no comprehension of sort order.

 

3) This means I have to build the sort order using the Vortex rules. It's cute because on the wiki they say "manual sorting should be rare". Except in order to build this load order properly, I need to make OVER TWO HUNDRED RULES just to get Horizon slotted at the bottom of my modlist.

 

 

 

Or I just give up, go download NMM, and build the entire sort order in less than a minute.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17374?tab=description

 

You guys keep asking for 'WhIcH mOd CaN't YoU sOrT?!?!'.

 

There you go. It's the third most popular overhaul mod for FO4, you know, just some mod nobody's ever heard of. It has incredibly specific load order requirements that will completely break the game if you violate them.

 

Go install it, use LOOT (oh wait the developer straight up says LOOT is garbage and not to use it because it breaks his mod), and play the game. I dare you to slot this into a 150+ mod install without breaking anything and without having to make a single Vortex rule.

 

Just getting z_horizon.esp to the bottom of your load order requires HUNDREDS OF RULES.

[rmm200]

If you just changed the Horizon plugin to Dynamic Patch (dropdown on the esp) - everything else should have worked.

But the customer knows best.

[FlamingCheeseMonkey]

I mean, if you're talking about the LOOT from a year and a half ago, than yeah. But if you're talking about the LOOT version that was released since then, your statement makes no sense.

I'm not sure why, but people seem to love to blame the developers of LOOT when no one bothered to read their announcement that LOOT is changing their system and adapt to it.

[HadToRegister]

  On 9/14/2019 at 7:33 PM, Uranium - 235 said:

I dare any Vortex developer who thinks their method works fine to go install the Fallout 4 mod "HORIZON" and sort it using their rules.

 

 

 

Personally, I avoid using ANY mod that requires that EVERY.OTHER.MOD. on the Nexus be made compatible with it.

 

What an absolute headache, which, BTW, doesn't make NMM any better at handling HORIZON, because NMM doesn't tell you about all of the conflicts you have that you don't know you have with Horizon.

 

Ever heard the saying "Ignorance is bliss"?

 

Also, can I get a citation for this?

 

 

  Quote

It's the third most popular overhaul mod for FO4

 

 

 

 

Also, thanks for proving my point.

 

 

  Quote

It has incredibly specific load order requirements that will completely break the game if you violate them.

[Tannin42]

  On 9/14/2019 at 7:33 PM, Uranium - 235 said:

I dare any Vortex developer who thinks their method works fine to go install the Fallout 4 mod "HORIZON" and sort it using their rules.

 

1) Horizon is a massive overhaul of nearly every single tiny aspect of the game. This means that the way the load order needs to be built is:

 

*Everything that isn't Horizon*

*Horizon main file*

*Official Horizon supporting files*

*Unofficial Horizon patches for everything that is above Horizon*

 

2) LOOT is horrific, apparently nobody has ever heard of Horizon because it just slaps this into the top of the load order. It is 100% guaranteed to break the mod if you leave it there. This is one of the most popular mods for FO4 and LOOT has no comprehension of sort order.

 

3) This means I have to build the sort order using the Vortex rules. It's cute because on the wiki they say "manual sorting should be rare". Except in order to build this load order properly, I need to make OVER TWO HUNDRED RULES just to get Horizon slotted at the bottom of my modlist.

 

 

 

Or I just give up, go download NMM, and build the entire sort order in less than a minute.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17374?tab=description

 

You guys keep asking for 'WhIcH mOd CaN't YoU sOrT?!?!'.

 

There you go. It's the third most popular overhaul mod for FO4, you know, just some mod nobody's ever heard of. It has incredibly specific load order requirements that will completely break the game if you violate them.

 

Go install it, use LOOT (oh wait the developer straight up says LOOT is garbage and not to use it because it breaks his mod), and play the game. I dare you to slot this into a 150+ mod install without breaking anything and without having to make a single Vortex rule.

 

Just getting z_horizon.esp to the bottom of your load order requires HUNDREDS OF RULES.

This dare is pointless the way you set it up.

 

The load order matters only between plugins that conflict. Yes, horizon will conflict with a lot of mods but I can still find thousands of plugins that will work just fine

loaded after Horizon because they don't.

Just take all the dummy plugins that have no records and thus do nothing but get a bsa loaded. They conflict with nothing. They can load after Horizon just fine.

 

So yes, I can take you up on your dare easily and "win" it. Not even worth investing the time.

 

If you want to make a point about loot ordering incorrectly you need to mention at the very least 2 (in words: two) plugins that get autosorted in the wrong order.

 

Second: As mentioned before, you don't need "hundreds of rules" to load z_horizon.esp last (assuming that is necessary), you just have to assign it to a group that gets loaded

late. Or, if you're a neat freak, create a new group for Horizon, set it up to be loaded late (probably want it immediately before "Dynamic Patches") and assign the mods

to that group, that's still only a couple of clicks.

 

> without having to make a single Vortex rule

 

With a mod like this there is a good change you will need a few rules - It's not like we built the UI for creating rules, assigning groups and editing group order expecting

no one would ever need it.

But multi-selecting all the horizon mods and assigning them to dynamic patches is still a lot fewer clicks than drag&drop ordering.

Besides: If the mod author had dropped the loot devs a line instead of ranting about how he thinks loot is horrible, there is a good chance that this would be included

in the masterlist and then you wouldn't have to set up any rules at all.

[AugustaCalidia]

@Uranium - 235

  Quote

 

I dare any Vortex developer who thinks their method works fine to go install the Fallout 4 mod "HORIZON" and sort it using their rules.

I'm not a Vortex developer, but I had no trouble using Vortex to sort "Horizon" properly, and I didn't even make a rule (unless group assignment is a rule). I simply assigned the mod's main ESP to the group "Dynamic Patches," as rmm200 suggested earlier. Once I did that, I was done.

 

  Quote

 

Or I just give up, go download NMM, and build the entire sort order in less than a minute.

Or just use Vortex and build the entire load order in at most 45 seconds, which is what I did.

 

  Quote

 

Just getting z_horizon.esp to the bottom of your load order requires HUNDREDS OF RULES.

I created no load order rules other than assigning "z_Horizon.esp" to the group "Dynamic Patches." (I don't know if that counts as making a rule or not.)

[HadToRegister]

  On 9/14/2019 at 7:33 PM, Uranium - 235 said:

 

I need to make OVER TWO HUNDRED RULES just to get Horizon slotted at the bottom of my modlist.

 

Just getting z_horizon.esp to the bottom of your load order requires HUNDREDS OF RULES.

 

 

Then you clearly don't know what you're doing.

As rmm200 and Augusta said...

 

z_horizon.esp ------->DYNAMIC PATCHES------>BOOM!! Bottom of the modlist without 199 other rules.

 

I suggest reading the Knowledge Base, especially the "Managing your load order" section, "About load orders", and "The Vortex guide to load order sorting"