Vortex 1.0 Release

[MikeInWare]

In response to post #72686218. #72735413, #72830348, #72854378, #72864088, #72885228, #72889143 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

i don't understand how and where there is this huge community of pissed off modders.

 

not one of them posts their issues in the support forums? don't you find that weird? i do. they fester about a computer program? that's like hating a spanner.

"Oh I'm 100% a hammer man. I hammer everything, ain't no nuts and bolts in my world - just nails. i have been hammering nails for 20 years and won't change now, who do they think they are making nuts and bolts? a "proper" handyman only needs a hammer. don't be coming in here and changing hammer and nail standards, we won't stand for none of that spannering around here!"

 

it is utterly ludicrous, but i guess people need something to hate, and surely hating some 0's and 1's is better than hating on a person. still odd, and still way out of my understanding, but hey - people, right?

 

as i said - when this army of pissed off modders can post their issues on the support forums, so that they can get answers, and who knows, make the program better, then we can deal with it. until that day - it's just unproven bullshine and fallacies on the interwebs. which is maybe why they're on reddit, no?

Arthmoor wrote: No. As I explained once before, these are people who have tried that approach before and found the developers unwilling to listen. Cue you assuming they were just being dense idiots though. Seems that's your fallback is to just call anyone who doesn't like Vortex for whatever reason an idiot.

Your hammer and bolts analogy falls utterly short of the mark btw. That's not even close to a valid comparison.

Also you are again conveniently ignoring the fact that I told you this isn't limited to just reddit users.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Here is the reality. There is a reason the developers are unwilling to listen. It's because those who are complaining are doing so without giving it a chance and actually trying it out. They are doing nothing more than complaining that things should be done the old way without giving any valid reason as to why.

You want the devs to listen? Then you need to provide feedback that is more than you just giving your opinion on how something works differently than what you are used to and so you don't like it. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even use Vortex mind you. I use MO2.

But I did use Vortex for a while, and most of the arguments against it are simply unfounded. Someone says they can't drag and drop? I call bullocks. Yes you can. It's just done through rules. Need mod A to load after mod M? Drag from the dependency column of mod A to Mod M, and a popup comes up with options like "Must Load After", "Requires", or "Is Incompatible With".

So this serves the same purpose and you no longer need traditional physical drag and dropping, right? So then why add it? This isn't just the devs being stubborn or unwilling to listen to actual feedback. This is more along the lines of people overreacting and jumping on a hate bandwagon and devs not listening to the absurd cries of the immature. You ever see how people act when Youtube makes a minor change? I am not talking like some of the major changes, I am talking like little UI changes. People freak out. They act like you just killed their puppy or something. They take it so personal.

This happens with a lot of software as well when things are changed. Office is a good example of this back when they first introduced the ribbon menu. Why do developers choose to ignore people who cry about the changes? Because they know it's none sense. They know it's just the internet overreacting as it always does. It happens with Windows often too. There are still people who refuse to use Windows 10 and make false claims about it lol.

You can even see this in game development. To the point many game developers don't even want to deal with the drama queens of the internet.

Not limited to Reddit? Who cares. Since when is the internet a good indication of something being bad or good? A lot of it is driven by bandwagon mentality rather than them actually understanding it. It's why most of the complainers and those who claim they dislike it, have never used Vortex. It's the same sort of mentality that causes review bombing. People see something happening and the want to be a part of it, especially when it's all dramatic and they feel like being a part of it makes them a "good" person.

Arthmoor wrote:

There is a reason the developers are unwilling to listen. It's because those who are complaining are doing so without giving it a chance and actually trying it out.

Nope. That's not why. Try again.

XRayHound wrote: I can't speak for a community of modders, but specfically in regard to Bethesda modding, it is a fact, and a well known one, that Vortex handles FO4, NV, and Skyrim very poorly. Countless issues are solved by simply switching away from Vortex to a different mod manager, to the point that it has become common practice to ask someone seeking tech support first thing: "are you using Vortex? Yes? Get MO2 or NMM and call us back". Those that do so cease having problems. It's anecdotal, yes, but there's not much incentive to install and test a program when you have evidence, anecdotal though it may be, that it's going to bork your game.

I used the community updated NMM without issue for staggeringly huge FO4 installs. Vortex may or may not be s*** as a whole, but for what I use the Nexus for, which is Fallout, Vortex is very much s#*!. As for why I don't post my issues with the devs, it's because I'm not going to put in the HOURS of work to change over to a mod manager that is likely to completely destroy my game setup in order to reap exactly zero benefits or compensation. Neither is anyone else. We know Vortex doesn't work (at least for our specific purpose); why on earth would we use it?

Brabbit1987 wrote: Fantastic refute of my entire post Arthmoor. You convinced me. :3

Tannin42 wrote: > Countless issues are solved by simply switching away from Vortex to a different mod manager,

in the same way countless issues have been "solved" by switching from NMM to MO, from MO to Wrye Bash, from WB to NMM, ...
In the same way that "turning it off and on again" "solves" so many issues or how you can "solve" your car issues by selling the Toyota and buying a BMW.

The point is: Yes, obviously if someone is having a problem with Vortex, switching to a completely different mod manager and thereby remaking the entire setup is going to make the problem go away but it may potentially replace it with a new one and you may be spending a lot more time than if you had just fixed the original problem in Vortex.

I developed MO, supported it mostly alone for years, don't go telling me that no one ever has a problem with it. Look at the complaints NMM got when _it_ was the main mod manager on this site. NMM has a lot more open bugs on github (difficult to say how much more since they aren't categorized into bug/enhancement) today than Vortex - despite having fewer users to report them and despite its code base having "matured" for 15 years now and despite the fact you have to register an account on github to report a problem with NMM but not with Vortex.

There is a problem with your anecdotal "evidence" because you lack context to interpret it in.
Let's say you have get 9 Vortex users report a problem with your mod and then you have 3 report a problem from MO2 users.
Since you don't know how large the user bases are, you see that 3 times more people report a problem with Vortex and you would conclude that Vortex causes more trouble. But if there were 1000 Vortex users and only 100 MO2 users, in reality MO2 was more than 3 times more likely to cause an issue for the users.

We have proper evidence that Vortex is being used successfully for Bethesda games by plenty of users. Now you can choose to continue living in a bubble where Vortex is terrible and useless and the fix is to replace it because NMM is flawless but you'd be doing a great disservice to many users.
Or you just go about this pragmatically and spend _some_ of this effort into telling us what problems you're seeing so we can improve on them.

I am eager to see the first alpha of the mod manager you are working on Arthmoor. I became excited when I heard the news on Discord.

[MikeInWare]

The killer app for Vortex will be modpacks. It will suck in individual mods and create a "one click" install for newbies. Which is good!

 

[Virtualburn]

Shell ExecuteEx Failed, Code 5, Access is denied.

 

Does this make you aware of updates to Mods, didn't see this mentioned.

[HadToRegister]

Shell ExecuteEx Failed, Code 5, Access is denied.

 

Does this make you aware of updates to Mods, didn't see this mentioned.

 

 

That's a Windows problem, not a Vortex problem

[asdf2345]

Nexus Mod Manager 0.56.2 works quite well, and is quite stable on every system I've ran it on, Nexus Mod Manager 0.60+ has been crap, it doesn't place the meshes and textures for the mods in the game folder (Skyrim and possibly others). 0.56.2 just installs the mod, and works

 

Maybe adding new games to the 0.56.2 code, and improving Nexus Mod Manager would have given it a 1.0 release

[Guest deleted34304850]

thats great, but what does it have to do with vortex?

[erikbc]

Thank you for all your work. I've been having a great time with Vortex, previously I used NMM, haven't tried anything else. Have used Vortex now for FO4, Skyrim, and SSE, on two computers, and haven't had a single issue, just a very easy time. I find the before/after suggestions and sort function work very well. Even the cyclic dependency and flipping. Installing, uninstalling, enabling and disabling mods is a breeze. Adding several games to manage and easily switching between them is great.

 

Thanks again for all your work.

Edited September 8, 2019 by erikbc

[xrayy]

In response to post #72696253. #72818893 is also a reply to the same post.

NickSheperd wrote: I think I tried vortex way back when it was first announced and I was so hopelessly confused by the UI that I dropped it immediately and never touched it again.

I can only hope some serious improvements have been made since then. I'm not currently playing any games that require an MO but by the time I am I imagine NMM probably won't support it so I'll be forced to learn Vortex.

I guess the one thing that never made any sense to me is the reason for abandoning NMM and completely starting over with Vortex. This post, like many before it, mention a lack of confidence in NMM's software and it's stability. I suppose I can understand that except for the fact that over the course of several years of using NMM I can't really recall running into any serious issue that caused unsolvable problems.

I suppose it's certainly possible that I was simply lucky and others out there were experiencing these problems I never ran into. I will say I'm really going to miss NMM's simplicity. It was very straight forward and easy to use while Vortex felt overly convoluted and messy.

And before anyone wants to hammer out "YOU CAN STILL USE NMM" let's not be disingenuous here. We all know that Vortex is supposed to be the future of modding for the Nexus. Eventually, we will reach a point where NMM simply can't keep up. I think that fact is being heavily ignored by those who can't seem to fathom why some people would have preferred updates for NMM rather than a whole new unfamiliar MO.

Either way, I do sincerely hope Vortex is a massive success because the Nexus is where I go for nearly all of my modding needs. Looking forward to a bright future for the modding community.

jakejaggedjaw wrote: My biggest problem with the UI is the pages with how I have Nexus set up it's all in one place so I know what's happening at any given time

@NickSheperd: why do you feel forced to use vortex ? nobody forces anyone to use vortex and there are more options to switch from nmm to another mod manager. the only reason i'm still not using vortex is that i'm perfectly satisfied using mo2. if mo2 starts to fail working like a breeze the first thing i will do is to give vortex a try. all i can read about nmm is that it is buggy and no option - like obmm - for complex mod structures.
obmm was my first mod manager for oblivion and i was happy with it. but after the 5th reinstall of oblivion due to buggy or dirty mods and the inabilility of obmm to assist me in correcting the mess i found tannins mo1 here on nexus and gave it a try. my old oblivion still works stable with this setup with hundreds of mods and esp installed till now. i've never had to reinstall oblivion again even if i had to find and exclude a buggy mod. for me these are the main and most important points to use a mod manager:
1. reliability in offering the mod load order i have chosen, no matter how many mods are installed.
2. in case of instability a real help to solve this situation without the need of reinstallation.
mo can be configured to give me 100% control over the load order and is a reliable utility to detect buggy mods without the need to reinstall anything. no bsa or archive invalidation related mess with loadorder anymore. if vortex will offer this functionality and mo2 starts to fail working 100% reliable that will be the moment i will give vortex a try. thanks to tannin and all vortex and mo2 developers i am in a situation i can chose between at least two capable mod managers. we all should be happy and there is absolutely no reason to complain. if one of them fails or if you like to try the other one just do it. and i agree with you: for the future just forget about obmm and nmm! Edited September 14, 2019 by xrayy

[xrayy]

In response to post #72686218. #72735413, #72830348, #72854378, #72864088, #72885228, #72889143, #73089858 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

i don't understand how and where there is this huge community of pissed off modders.

 

not one of them posts their issues in the support forums? don't you find that weird? i do. they fester about a computer program? that's like hating a spanner.

"Oh I'm 100% a hammer man. I hammer everything, ain't no nuts and bolts in my world - just nails. i have been hammering nails for 20 years and won't change now, who do they think they are making nuts and bolts? a "proper" handyman only needs a hammer. don't be coming in here and changing hammer and nail standards, we won't stand for none of that spannering around here!"

 

it is utterly ludicrous, but i guess people need something to hate, and surely hating some 0's and 1's is better than hating on a person. still odd, and still way out of my understanding, but hey - people, right?

 

as i said - when this army of pissed off modders can post their issues on the support forums, so that they can get answers, and who knows, make the program better, then we can deal with it. until that day - it's just unproven bullshine and fallacies on the interwebs. which is maybe why they're on reddit, no?

Arthmoor wrote: No. As I explained once before, these are people who have tried that approach before and found the developers unwilling to listen. Cue you assuming they were just being dense idiots though. Seems that's your fallback is to just call anyone who doesn't like Vortex for whatever reason an idiot.

Your hammer and bolts analogy falls utterly short of the mark btw. That's not even close to a valid comparison.

Also you are again conveniently ignoring the fact that I told you this isn't limited to just reddit users.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Here is the reality. There is a reason the developers are unwilling to listen. It's because those who are complaining are doing so without giving it a chance and actually trying it out. They are doing nothing more than complaining that things should be done the old way without giving any valid reason as to why.

You want the devs to listen? Then you need to provide feedback that is more than you just giving your opinion on how something works differently than what you are used to and so you don't like it. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even use Vortex mind you. I use MO2.

But I did use Vortex for a while, and most of the arguments against it are simply unfounded. Someone says they can't drag and drop? I call bullocks. Yes you can. It's just done through rules. Need mod A to load after mod M? Drag from the dependency column of mod A to Mod M, and a popup comes up with options like "Must Load After", "Requires", or "Is Incompatible With".

So this serves the same purpose and you no longer need traditional physical drag and dropping, right? So then why add it? This isn't just the devs being stubborn or unwilling to listen to actual feedback. This is more along the lines of people overreacting and jumping on a hate bandwagon and devs not listening to the absurd cries of the immature. You ever see how people act when Youtube makes a minor change? I am not talking like some of the major changes, I am talking like little UI changes. People freak out. They act like you just killed their puppy or something. They take it so personal.

This happens with a lot of software as well when things are changed. Office is a good example of this back when they first introduced the ribbon menu. Why do developers choose to ignore people who cry about the changes? Because they know it's none sense. They know it's just the internet overreacting as it always does. It happens with Windows often too. There are still people who refuse to use Windows 10 and make false claims about it lol.

You can even see this in game development. To the point many game developers don't even want to deal with the drama queens of the internet.

Not limited to Reddit? Who cares. Since when is the internet a good indication of something being bad or good? A lot of it is driven by bandwagon mentality rather than them actually understanding it. It's why most of the complainers and those who claim they dislike it, have never used Vortex. It's the same sort of mentality that causes review bombing. People see something happening and the want to be a part of it, especially when it's all dramatic and they feel like being a part of it makes them a "good" person.

Arthmoor wrote:

There is a reason the developers are unwilling to listen. It's because those who are complaining are doing so without giving it a chance and actually trying it out.

Nope. That's not why. Try again.

XRayHound wrote: I can't speak for a community of modders, but specfically in regard to Bethesda modding, it is a fact, and a well known one, that Vortex handles FO4, NV, and Skyrim very poorly. Countless issues are solved by simply switching away from Vortex to a different mod manager, to the point that it has become common practice to ask someone seeking tech support first thing: "are you using Vortex? Yes? Get MO2 or NMM and call us back". Those that do so cease having problems. It's anecdotal, yes, but there's not much incentive to install and test a program when you have evidence, anecdotal though it may be, that it's going to bork your game.

I used the community updated NMM without issue for staggeringly huge FO4 installs. Vortex may or may not be s*** as a whole, but for what I use the Nexus for, which is Fallout, Vortex is very much s#*!. As for why I don't post my issues with the devs, it's because I'm not going to put in the HOURS of work to change over to a mod manager that is likely to completely destroy my game setup in order to reap exactly zero benefits or compensation. Neither is anyone else. We know Vortex doesn't work (at least for our specific purpose); why on earth would we use it?

Brabbit1987 wrote: Fantastic refute of my entire post Arthmoor. You convinced me. :3

Tannin42 wrote: > Countless issues are solved by simply switching away from Vortex to a different mod manager,

in the same way countless issues have been "solved" by switching from NMM to MO, from MO to Wrye Bash, from WB to NMM, ...
In the same way that "turning it off and on again" "solves" so many issues or how you can "solve" your car issues by selling the Toyota and buying a BMW.

The point is: Yes, obviously if someone is having a problem with Vortex, switching to a completely different mod manager and thereby remaking the entire setup is going to make the problem go away but it may potentially replace it with a new one and you may be spending a lot more time than if you had just fixed the original problem in Vortex.

I developed MO, supported it mostly alone for years, don't go telling me that no one ever has a problem with it. Look at the complaints NMM got when _it_ was the main mod manager on this site. NMM has a lot more open bugs on github (difficult to say how much more since they aren't categorized into bug/enhancement) today than Vortex - despite having fewer users to report them and despite its code base having "matured" for 15 years now and despite the fact you have to register an account on github to report a problem with NMM but not with Vortex.

There is a problem with your anecdotal "evidence" because you lack context to interpret it in.
Let's say you have get 9 Vortex users report a problem with your mod and then you have 3 report a problem from MO2 users.
Since you don't know how large the user bases are, you see that 3 times more people report a problem with Vortex and you would conclude that Vortex causes more trouble. But if there were 1000 Vortex users and only 100 MO2 users, in reality MO2 was more than 3 times more likely to cause an issue for the users.

We have proper evidence that Vortex is being used successfully for Bethesda games by plenty of users. Now you can choose to continue living in a bubble where Vortex is terrible and useless and the fix is to replace it because NMM is flawless but you'd be doing a great disservice to many users.
Or you just go about this pragmatically and spend _some_ of this effort into telling us what problems you're seeing so we can improve on them.

MikeInWare wrote: I am eager to see the first alpha of the mod manager you are working on Arthmoor. I became excited when I heard the news on Discord.

@tannin - gratulation and thank you and all involved developers for all your efforts to provide the community with a decent mod manager. now we have at least two of them :)
you did already a damn good job on mo and that's in my opinion the only reason for me and some others using a perfectly running mo or mo2 not to switch instantly to vortex.

[Minecraften]

I really don't know why these people complain. Vortex is amazing. Since your switching to actively developing features now, would you mind looking into emulating NMM's shortcuts to programs such as FNIS, Dual Sheath Redux, etc, right from the mod menu?