You’re just a an unimportant piece of some game *Contains major spoile

[sajuukkhar9000]

I was disappointed in teh interactions between the DB and the NPCs as well. I mean you become Thane of a city and I think you might have some acknowledgement of the deed, but regular folks, nothing. You're Thane of the city, people should know that!

People do know, they jut dont care.

 

Tell me, do you go "OMG YOUR THAT POLICE OFFIER GUY I HEARD ABOUT" every time you meet some random police officer you saw on TV, assuming you had seen one on tv?

 

No, people treat you normally becuase that is how people act IRL.

 

I'm just going to go throw this out there and get it over with. In terms of story and presentation of said story, Skyrim is easily the worst Elder Scrolls to date in recent years. Nothing you do in the game has any real significance, you have virtually no choices, and what few choices you do have in fact end in more or less the same fashion. You're given no closure whatsoever, and your effect on the landscape of Skyrim is virtually undetectable. In other words, the PC is irrelevant.

 

This is a clear STEP BACK from Fallout 3, where your choices certainly do have an impact. In Oblivion as well your actions had some impact, when you completed the main quest you were made champion of Cyrodiil. You even have a statue of your likeness in Bruma after you achieve victory there. Moreover in Oblivion you actually felt like you'd achieved something after becoming the head of your respective guild, as Oblivion was decently paced instead of rushed like Skyrim.

 

Maybe if Bethesda had some decent writers, or hired Obsidian to handle its presentation Skyrim wouldn't be the shallow experience it is. :pinch:

All I can really say is FALSE, on many levels.

-Preventing the world from ending is significant

-Killing the emperor and allowing for a change in regime is significant

-Handing Skyrim over to the Empire, or the Rebels, is significant.

 

The choices you do have are visually different, in all the Daedric quests that have choices, which is to say practically all but two, the different endings either spare someone, thus letting them live, or allows you to kill them for an object of great power. Letting them live gives you an alternate reward, including possibly letting them be a companion.

 

I dont see how you can claim there is no closure, especially considering every story is wrapped up before the game is over.

 

And

-Having half the holds in the game have their guards/Jarls changed.

-Having around 6 forts occupied with soldiers, when before they were occupied with bandits and the like.

-Having remnants of factions like The Blood Horkers, or the Afflicted, attack you.

-Having random Thieves attack rob cities you have taken over for the thieves guild.

-Having every NPC you have ever helped ever constantly thanking you as you pass them by.

-Having the ability to bribe guards, and tell those random thief NPCs that you are in the guild, and thus to ignore your crime/not rob you

-Having random encounters with people like Sinding, should you spare him

Amongst a large list of other things, does significant impact on the world around you. Frankly, the only way anyone can say what you do doesn't show up in the world, is if you close to your eyes to everything that happens in the game.

 

furthermore, Oblivion's guilds were not decently paced, they were padded out with tons of misc quests that had nothing to do with the main guild story at all, so to say Skyrim;s guilds are rushed, when they are, in fact, not rushed, just plot focused, is a falsehood.

Edited January 13, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kraeten]

All I can really say is FALSE, on many levels.

-Preventing the world from ending is significant

And would the world really have ended? Really?! Alduin destroyed a small Imperial Outpost.....what a feat from a dragon dubbed The World Eater. Am I supposed to be impressed by the fact he can devour souls? Or the fact he fights exactly the same as ANY OTHER dragon? I'm sorry, but there was no gravity in the story once it became clear Alduin wielded no greater power than any other dragon in terms of gameplay. Now seeing a large settlement like Kvatch reduced to a ruin, plagued with all manners of Daedra....Seeing the sky a dark bloody red with lightening in the sky as the plane of Oblivion threatened to overflow into existence...now THAT had gravity.

-Killing the emperor and allowing for a change in regime is significant

It would have been significant if we actually witnessed the repercussions of killing him. Of seeing who would replace him, of how the immediate political climate was affected. Even hearing it via rumor would have been something. But we got NOTHING. He was just another NPC to be killed. Nothing changed.

-Handing Skyrim over to the Empire, or the Rebels, is significant.

No, it isn't. No one is ever made High King. Torygg's wife lives regardless of who you side with. Skyrim itself isn't affected in any way whatsoever short of some small burning scraps of wreckage and the question of a second war with the Dominion isn't answered.

The choices you do have are visually different, in all the Daedric quests that have choices, which is to say practically all but two, the different endings either spare someone, thus letting them live, or allows you to kill them for an object of great power. Letting them live gives you an alternate reward, including possibly letting them be a companion.

The companion system is utter crap, and like you just stated not all of the Daedric quests have choices...and short of loot nothing meaningful happens. Maybe if the companions were as robust as they were in New Vegas you might actually have a point.

I dont see how you can claim there is no closure, especially considering every story is wrapped up before the game is over.

Every story? PLEASE. The dragons are still a threat to all of Skyrim regardless of Alduin's death. On the other hand in Oblivion, when the main quest was over the threat of the Oblivion Gates WAS resolved definitively. But back to Skyrim, the question of the Empire's survival isn't resolved, nor do we see the Empire or Skyrim affected after the conclusion of the civil war. We don't see a coronation of a High King either. Many of the Companions are still trapped in the daedric realm of what's his face as well. If that's your idea of closure, I'd hate to see what you call an unresolved story.

furthermore, Oblivion's guilds were not decently paced, they were padded out with tons of misc quests that had nothing to do with the main guild story at all,

Doing quests to earn respect and favor has EVERYTHING to do with being an aspiring member of whatever guild your character is involved in. It makes the progression from newcomer to head of the Guild more realistic.

so to say Skyrim;s guilds are rushed, when they are, in fact, not rushed, just plot focused, is a falsehood.

Of course they're rushed. It's completely unrealistic for an utter stranger to waltz into the Mages Guild, and in the span of less than a few days suddenly become Arch Mage, Nightingale, Listener or Harbinger. If you can complete a questline that quickly, there isn't exactly much of a plot to speak of....much like everything else about Skyrim which is to say it's extremely shallow.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Kraeten

[bjeet]

My roof of my home in Whiterun has been on fire since the Battle for Whiterun quest which happened something like 50 hours of gameplay ago. It would've been real nice if the fire got extinguished or the entire house got reduced to ashes by now. :wallbash:

[suger88]

Your last post was absolutely excellent, Kraeten.

[ManleySteele]

I'm one of those obnoxious people who can see and agree with both sides of the argument. My feelings about the game concern the effects of the standing stones. I feel that they should have more effects on gameplay, right from the start. If you choose the Warrior, for instance, I don't think you should be able to cast any spells except a few cantrips, like healing, healing hands, candlelight, etc. to name a few. The spell "transmutation" should be severely limited. It should cost more magic than you have to make gold ore from silver. You should hardly be able to sneak, at all in heavy armor. You should Have to work very hard to learn any magic or any sneaking. Thieves shouldn't be able to wear heavy armor. You shouldn't be able to cast magic, except cantrips, in heavy armor. That's the way I play. That is because I agree that the game requires self discipline to play a character without doing out of character things. I won't join the thieves guild. I won't join the dark brotherhood. I won't join the mages college. I find the companions shallow, but I usually join. I have never played the stormcloak side because I just can't get past the "nasty little facts" about Ulfric Stormcloak and the rampant racism in the Stormcloak faction. Not saying the Imperials are a lot better, but that's just me. After the civil war, I should be able to go to the Stormcloack camps and tell everyone there to just go home, in defiance of my instructions from General Tullius. As for the interactions with the NPC's, expect nothing, because that''s what you're going to get. The system of NPC interaction has fallen down, and it can't get up, much like Oblivion and Morrowind. I don't find Fallout much better or different. I still play Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind, Fallout 3, and Fallout NV. I still enjoy them all, when they're not breaking, but they are not the end all and be all of RPG's. I don't expect them to be.

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

-And was I supposed to be scared of Dagon after my character, alone, plowed through all his minions in every single gate he opened? By your own logic Oblivion's story lacked gravity becuase all of Dagons supposed mighty armies could be beat single handedly by one guy.

 

Also, I would say that being in the middle of a city as it is being destroyed had far greater impact then arriving after the fact. Being there, seeing the s*** Alduin can do while taking no damage from Tullius personal guard, some of the best soldiers in the Legion, had so much more impact then arriving in some burnt down city with a few inept guards screaming about how weak they are, and how unable they are to beat some low level deadra. I was s***ing myself by the time I got out of Helgen, on the other hand, all I could think of was "really guys you couldn't beat these daedra?" in Oblivion. Skyrim shows a real sense of power and danger, Oblivion only showed idiotic and weak guards.

 

 

-What world do you live in where things happen with such immediacy? The death of the Emperor would have no logic impact on Skyrim, in any way, nor would a new Emperor be crowed so soon because of all the legal maneuvering the Elder counsel would have to do.

 

 

-Just because no one is made High King in the game itself does not mean the person you sides with didn't become High King. With remnants of the enemy faction still out there, including several high ranking generals, taking the title of High King/Queen would only further split the people. You dont need it to happen in-game to know it happened though.

 

 

-The companions in Skyrim are no less robust then the ones in New Vegas, to say otherwise is complete fiction. Furthermore, nothing you do in New Vegas's companion quests have any effect on the game world itself, or no more then actions in Skyrim does. so I really must wonder what point you were trying to make.

 

 

-Well considering the story was never about stopping all the dragons, only Alduin, that story isn't left unresolved, because it was never started in the first place.

-The question of the Empire's survival wasn't started in Skyrim either, it was started in Oblivion with the death of Martin, that is a unresolved story of Oblivion, not Skyrim.

-We dont need to SEE a coronation of a High King to know it happened, unless you lack the faculties to think more then three seconds into the future. The fact that the civil war ends, and all the Jarls, the people who vote for high King, are replaced with Jarls that support the side you joined, gives us clear inidcation of what will happen.

-Well, once again, the story of the companions was not about freeing every harbinger's soul from the hunting grounds, it was about freeing Kodlak's and Kodlak's alone. Much like the case of not stopping ALL the Dragons, the story was never left unresolved because the story was never about it to begin with.

I really have to question how much you payed attention to the stories in the game, and what happened in them, because you seem to have missed many clear, and obvious things about all of them.

 

 

-No, it does not make it more realistic, it makes it more padded. There is nothing Illogical about an apprentice being thrust into a huge situation and eventually skipping ranks because he proved himself worthy of several ranks higher then he was, many stores have been based on that principle.

 

-It makes sense to become Lister if its your destiny since you are sithis incarnate, the hands of Padhome, a Ahezzarne, and Dragonborn. Avatar of Akatosh, Akatosh who is Lorkhan, Lorkhan who is the son of Sithis.

-It makes sense to become Arch-Mage if you saved not only the school, but the entire world, from being destroyed by a madman, when none of the teachers could do it themselves.

-It makes sense to become Harbinger if the previous one handpicked you because you were not only more balanced then any of the other potential canditaed, but you also took it upon yourself to free the companions from a cure that has plagued their entire order for ages

-It makes sense to become a nightingale when you are the only person, besides the other nightingales, who have not only proved themselves capable to fight Mercer, but is also one of the few people who knows the depths of his betrayal, and indeed risked your own life in order to uncover it.

Edited January 13, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kraeten]

By your own logic Oblivion's story lacked gravity becuase all of Dagons supposed mighty armies could be beat single handedly by one guy.

That isn't the logic I used at all. If you're not going to debate with a sense of fairness then you're not worth my time.

Your last post was absolutely excellent, Kraeten.

Thank you, I likewise enjoyed yours.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Kraeten

[sajuukkhar9000]

That isn't the logic I used at all. If you're not going to debate with a sense of fairness then you're not worth my time.

I did debate fairly.

 

You pointed out that Skyrim's plot lacked a meaningful impression because Alduin appeared weak, then said Oblivion did leave a meaningful impression because the Daedra destroying Kvatch gave a sense of power.

 

Then I pointed out how the Daedra that attacked Kvatch were all low level, and super weak, and how it instead showed that the Kvatch guard were pansies, rather then the Daedra being strong. Thus making the Daedra in Oblivion, and Alduin in Skyrim, on equal terms, and thus the statement that they were somehow different in their impact, false.

 

If you aren't going to debate fairly, and instead just throw it petty deflections onto others, then I should be the one saying that you're not worth my time.

[Kraeten]

I did debate fairly.

Apparently I'll have to demonstrate how you not did not debate fairly.

You pointed out that Skyrim's plot lacked a meaningful impression because Alduin appeared weak, then said Oblivion did leave a meaningful impression because the Daedra destroying Kvatch gave a sense of power.

More or less accurate.

Then I pointed out how the Daedra that attacked Kvatch were all low level, and super weak, and how it instead showed that the Kvatch guard were pansies, rather then the Daedra being strong.

You pointed that out AFTER you presumed to twist my point when you said "By your own logic Oblivion's story lacked gravity becuase all of Dagons supposed mighty armies could be beat single handedly by one guy"

The question of whether or not the hero alone can vanquish the antagonist has NOTHING to do with why Alduin fails in his role as an effective villain. It certainly was NOT the logic I used when I argued Alduin's presentation as an antagonist was inferior to Oblivion's. My logic, was Alduin is little different from any other dragon in actual deed therefore undermining the threat he is supposed to represent. Demonstration finished.

Thus making the Daedra in Oblivion, and Alduin in Skyrim, on equal terms, and thus the statement that they were somehow different in their impact, false.

This leap of logic here isn't sound. To begin with the fact that the PC is stronger than simple guard NPC's is natural. It's to stress the fact that your aid is direly needed. And it worked. Secondly, it's more accurate to compare Dagon to Alduin rather than the Daedra. Thirdly, there's more to presentation than merely the health values of the characters themselves. You seem to get hung up on the math behind the characters stats, but that's largely irrelevant to the point I made. The point being, Alduin never presents as much of a threat to the world as Dagon and the realm of Oblivion did.

instead just throw it petty deflections onto others

If you think pointing out your fallacies is a "petty deflection" then frankly you don't know how to debate. Now, I believe that'll be it from me.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Kraeten

[screendrop]

Its like this. Skyrim is a big card board box. Inside are thousands of tiny boxes, each filled with tiny little tacks. As the MC, you have access to the large box and any subsequent box.

(in case you're wondering, the boxes inside the large box represent factions, guilds, quest lines etc)

As the MC, you are able to make impressions on each tack, on each box, even able to totally alter the fundamental dynamics of each box. Albeit in a very restricted manner. The boxes start at a corner and give you an option, interact or not. Choosing to interact will open perhaps two, maybe three more sides but usually only one. In the moment, this system seems to be dynamic and free flowing but upon zooming out a tiny bit, you notice that the paths chosen are actually linear than in reality, you have only traveled on a path that you thought was your own but was in fact, inevitable. You finish that small box and zoom out. You realize that you have made no imprint on the total system, that Skyrim, the large box remains unchanged because that small box you have just traversed in a restricted was has, in reality, no affiliation with the other boxes, let alone the largest, that it is totally alienated and that even inside that small box, you have achieved very little.

 

The quests, the moments, world events, everything is only contained within itself. Even that containment is often restricted in a linear way.

 

Take the MQ for example. The only options you are given are(that are dynamic)

Kill Paarthanaux

Don't Kill Him

 

Other that have no gameplay change are travel with Actor XYZ or don't.

 

Boxes are just containers for smaller containers like Skyrim is a medium for thousands of smaller, unconnected mediums.