AugustaCalidia Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Bene, verum nil tanti. Vide infra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustaCalidia Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 (edited) I've tried vortex several times and it is done in a way to be smart for simple mod organising and for as many games as possible but for a robust advanced mod organiser it's anything but, things like to the simple ability to save backup restore your current setup, ability to keep the game folders clean is not possible. I'm in my own world here. My own opinion. For me, I could not get over the practicaity of MO and expected the same functionality. The way it added files to the game folders magically.. I love MO and continue to use it, it's a fantastic designed program. You fault Vortex for not keeping game folders "clean" and then praise MO for "magically" adding files to the game folders, which would mean those folders are not "clean." Is this not a contradiction? In fact, however, MO does not add files to the game folder at all, magically or otherwise. It's big selling feature was "mod isolation," made possible by symlinks. In Vortex, Tannin has maintained a version of mod isolation by using hardlinks in the game folder and storing the mod files themselves in a separate Mod Staging Folder. The game folder remains clean because it contains hardlinks, not mods. You might argue that the game folder is no longer "clean" if it contains hardlinks. However, even if that were true, it is a difference that makes no difference. MO operates in a clean game folder environment, and Vortex operates in a "virtually" clean game folder environment. Purgeable hardlinks make this possible, for they are "visitors" in the game folder, not "permanent residents." Therefore the fact that MO places no files whatever in the game folder does not grant it abilities not already present in Vortex. Edited September 8, 2020 by AugustaCalidia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannin42 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 There is nothing wrong with personally preferring one mod manager or the other. I too am very glad that Mod Organizer and NMM are still being maintained. Taste is a big aspect of it. But people have to understand that it is, in fact, a matter of taste.Mod Organizer doesn't use symlinks, it uses its own mechanism which may be best described as "virtual links": the files are only visible to certain processes. If the process is terminated (normally or crash doesn't matter), the files are automatically gone. They don't have to be cleaned up in a process that might fail. This is a neat feature I'm still proud of, but it does have drawbacks, e.g.a) the files will only be visible to processes started from MO. Some games can't even be started directly and have to be run through a game store for DRM reasons. Not a problem for MO supporting only gamebryo games but would be a huge problem for Vortex trying to support >100 gamesb) Because it's so "magic" it's also confusing and surprising to users. For many people it's irritating more than convenientc) Because it has to insert itself into the communication between game and operating system, it has the potential to cause crashes and hard-to-detect bugs and it will always be quite suspicious to security software.With Vortex I can say with confidence: If your game crashes then your game is mis-configured or mods aren't installed correctly. No matter what bugs Vortex has: at the end of the day all it does is put files/links into directories. With MO that's not possible, if there is a bug, that can crash the game. For you these drawbacks may be minor, for others they aren't. If you enjoy Mod Organizer: Great. Honestly, I have absolutely no reason to try and convince you otherwise.Please do make sure you tell the current MO devs how much you enjoy it, don't just tell us how great the competition is. :wink: What I would appreciate though is that when you recommend mod managers to people, don't just go "MO > Vortex". Explain to people what the respective strength of the tools are, we have way too much herd mentality in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustaCalidia Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 @Tannin42 Thank you for your always helpful, instructive comments, especially in regard to "virtual links." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmm200 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 @Tannin42 Only thing I would request on Links is something to warn users to not move / copy / backup a game having active hard links.Maybe put a warning in the base game directory "WARNING - do not move / copy / backup this directory without issuing Purge from Vortex first!". Zero length text file.Add it on any Deploy and remove it on any Purge. We are getting too many users moving their game directories around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetsuYorokai Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 (edited) I'm starting to understand the REAL problems with all these mod managers. USER FRIENDLINESS, and AVAILABILITY OF AN ACTUAL MANUAL (PDF STYLE with index included). These manuals should include an explanation of how and why things work the way they do. Its not enough to know how things work, people need to know why. Im sure these forums would be a lot less active if such a thing existed, and poor HadToRegister could spend his time doing something more productive than arguing with a bunch of ignorant lazy idiots like myself who just want all the information handed to then, like say in a handy, dandy, pdf styled manual... OH SNAP! Sorry HadToRegister, it was Pickysaurus who locked my Topic. Sorry bud, you were just involved in the topic with us! SORRY! Edited November 7, 2020 by GetsuYorokai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadToRegister Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm starting to understand the REAL problems with all these mod managers. USER FRIENDLINESS, and AVAILABILITY OF AN ACTUAL MANUAL (PDF STYLE with index included). These manuals should include an explanation of how and why things work the way they do. Its not enough to know how things work, people need to know why. Im sure these forums would be a lot less active if such a thing existed, and poor HadToRegister could spend his time doing something more productive than arguing with a bunch of ignorant lazy idiots like myself who just want all the information handed to then, like say in a handy, dandy, pdf styled manual... OH SNAP! Sorry HadToRegister, it was Pickysaurus who locked my Topic. Sorry bud, you were just involved in the topic with us! SORRY! There's a built in manual, you just keep ignoring anything that's been told to youI've explained sorting rules etc, but you ignore them. I expect you'll ignore the fact that there's a built in manual and built in video tutorials as well. The how and why has been explained to you over and over again, you refuse to listen or learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustaCalidia Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm starting to understand the REAL problems with all these mod managers. USER FRIENDLINESS, and AVAILABILITY OF AN ACTUAL MANUAL (PDF STYLE with index included). These manuals should include an explanation of how and why things work the way they do. Its not enough to know how things work, people need to know why. Im sure these forums would be a lot less active if such a thing existed, and poor HadToRegister could spend his time doing something more productive than arguing with a bunch of ignorant lazy idiots like myself who just want all the information handed to then, like say in a handy, dandy, pdf styled manual... OH SNAP! Sorry HadToRegister, it was Pickysaurus who locked my Topic. Sorry bud, you were just involved in the topic with us! SORRY! The real problem with mod managers is not lack of documentation. Rather, it's the failure of most users to read and/or view the available documentation. In the case of Vortex, there's considerable documentation that can be accessed from its dashboard. However, spend a while in these forums, and you'll see that few users avail themselves of these resources. Yes, it would be nice to have a big, fat, tidy, nicely indexed PDF style manual, chock-full of instructions, theory, FAQs, pictures, and even blank pages for notes. But who, besides you and a few others, is going to read it? And who would want to expend the effort producing a manual that would be largely ignored? And who would want to be frequently updating that manual, given that mod management development is ongoing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deleted34304850 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm starting to understand the REAL problems with all these mod managers. USER FRIENDLINESS, and AVAILABILITY OF AN ACTUAL MANUAL (PDF STYLE with index included). These manuals should include an explanation of how and why things work the way they do. Its not enough to know how things work, people need to know why. Im sure these forums would be a lot less active if such a thing existed, and poor HadToRegister could spend his time doing something more productive than arguing with a bunch of ignorant lazy idiots like myself who just want all the information handed to then, like say in a handy, dandy, pdf styled manual... OH SNAP! Sorry HadToRegister, it was Pickysaurus who locked my Topic. Sorry bud, you were just involved in the topic with us! SORRY!the mod manager programs are all fine. the issues start and end with the users who, for reasons quite beyond me, all fail to do the basics, such as read and learn and understand the process.A mod manager is a tool. Use it incorrectly and bad things happen.Think of it as a hammer.If you then use it to smash your thumb, its not the fault of the hammer. It's the fault of the idiot holding the tool, using it incorrectly.Problems start and end with users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorKaizeld Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm starting to understand the REAL problems with all these mod managers. USER FRIENDLINESS, and AVAILABILITY OF AN ACTUAL MANUAL (PDF STYLE with index included). These manuals should include an explanation of how and why things work the way they do. Its not enough to know how things work, people need to know why. Im sure these forums would be a lot less active if such a thing existed, and poor HadToRegister could spend his time doing something more productive than arguing with a bunch of ignorant lazy idiots like myself who just want all the information handed to then, like say in a handy, dandy, pdf styled manual... OH SNAP! Sorry HadToRegister, it was Pickysaurus [/size]who locked my Topic. Sorry bud, you were just involved in the topic with us! SORRY! The real problem with mod managers is not lack of documentation. Rather, it's the failure of most users to read and/or view the available documentation. In the case of Vortex, there's considerable documentation that can be accessed from its dashboard. However, spend a while in these forums, and you'll see that few users avail themselves of these resources. Yes, it would be nice to have a big, fat, tidy, nicely indexed PDF style manual, chock-full of instructions, theory, FAQs, pictures, and even blank pages for notes. But who, besides you and a few others, is going to read it? And who would want to expend the effort producing a manual that would be largely ignored? And who would want to be frequently updating that manual, given that mod management development is ongoing?The manual is for the tech support who have to help those who don't read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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