Giving up on Vortex for now

[Arthmoor]

Jeez, seriously? Please don't call me the Grand Inquisitor lol XD.

Then stop acting like one.

 

Also, You are full of crap dude. I never said the old way is the wrong way.

Except you did. You continue to do so in this very post:

 

I said organizing your plugins by category is the wrong way.

See? Dress it up all you like, but you are saying using load order in this manner is wrong. Who are you to judge the wrongness of it? Load order by categorical organization seems to work perfectly well for the console crowd. So I refuse to accept your assertion that the method itself is wrong.

 

I said the new way is a better way, but never said the old way was flat out wrong. Clearly it wasn't wrong cause we have been using it for a while now. However, let me be clear, a lot of people do use it wrong or don't know how to use it at all.

So because a few people are so dumb as to be a danger to themselves, we should impose protections meant for them on everyone in the community?

 

You have to consider the vast majority of people who use nexus, honestly probably does not read the front page of mods.

No. I don't. I base my experience with the numbers on those people who post and clearly demonstrate they didn't read. Those people are hopeless anyway and it would make no difference if they were using Vortex or installing everything file by file in Windows Explorer.

 

Tannin is trying to circumvent this very issue.

No, he's trying to protect a small subset of the userbase from itself at the cost of greatly inconveniencing the rest of the userbase. He's made it clear why though, even if I don't agree with the reasoning, and he's made it clear that it won't be changing. So you won. Your Inquisition can end now.

 

His current method doesn't actually remove being able to control the load order in whatever way you want.

Except by dragging and dropping a file myself of course.

 

The issue is people are coming here and saying the new way is not intutive or isn't allowing them to control their load order, which is entirely false. A lot of people are coming here with assumptions or with very little experience in actually using what they are complaining about.

You seem to be assuming an awful lot about why people have shown up in this thread and assigning truth value to their motives. Do you really think everyone in this thread is so dumb that they don't know what they're even asking for?

 

Also, when Tannin said that drag and dropping load order manually doesn't resolve conflict, he meant the act of doing it without a reason or knowledge to do it.

Then maybe it would help if he'd qualify the statement instead of you both making blanket assertions that manually adjusting your load order never resolves a conflict. The same exact logic can be used to say that setting a LOOT rule doesn't either if you leave out the part of knowing why you're setting up the rule.

 

If I grab a random mod and drag and drop it in a random location, that isn't resolving conflicts.

No kidding. At what point did any of us ever claim that we just wanted to drag stuff around randomly without reason?

 

If I set a LOOT rule in a completely random and uninformed way, what am I accomplishing? How does Vortex help if it will let you do that, but not drag it there by hand instead?

 

That's more like taking a deck of cards and just throwing them in the air hoping with the possiblity the land in the correct order. Truthfully, I think he explained himself well already and you are jsut not listening to what he is saying.

No, I am listening to what both of you are saying and I'm saying you're both arguing from a bad position. Absolutely nobody in this thread has implied that people drag stuff around willy nilly without any reason for doing it. Yet that's what you both seem to imply the entire community has been doing for 15 years. If this is such a huge menace today, why wasn't it back in Morrowind's time? Or Oblivion? Why did Wrye not address this with Wrye Bash? Why didn't Timeslip address it with OBMM? Or Nexus with NMM? Why is it only today, with Vortex, that suddenly moving a file into a new position without the assistance of a nanny program a major problem that the majority of the community cannot mentally process?

[d81]

In my brain going back to the majority/minority position is not going to convince Tannin, but I think it is important.

 

The minority, in terms of software usage and adoption, are important, if not the most important, to keep engaged or draw in. (Usually, depends on the goals of the group in question and what the software is and where it came from.) For example, Microsoft is currently going through this with their Linux subsystem and other initiatives. Microsoft may be the most used desktop, but not by the people they need, a "vast" minority compared to the number of users. Microsoft are expending huge sums of cash to attract these people. They need developers because they need people to support their systems by using them, but Linux and Mac are easier, once understood, so developers nowadays go with them instead. Entire development systems have been built for Mac/Linux compatibility, and they are just a terminal command away. Microsoft has even "embraced" multi-platform initiatives that include Linux. (Microsoft's VS Code is developed, at least partially, on Mac and puts dotfiles in my user directory, which I found humorous.)

 

How many people are Windows Insiders versus Windows users?

 

How many people create Firefox/Chrome extensions versus those that use them?

 

How many people contribute to open source projects versus how many use them?

 

Hell, how many people bother to report problems with software in general, even if it bothers them and they think it could be better?

 

The minority tend to keep things running, and in the case of Nexus Mods, you know, make mods.

 

I find it hard to believe that any authors who work on large projects want their load order changed around automatically, need to enter meta-data, and otherwise fool around with their management software. I may be utterly incorrect, but I manage a lot of files, thousands of them, and I want managers to reduce that management time, not increase it. I did not complain to Microsoft about their file manager being inadequate, I bought a "better" one. Better for me. Microsoft may have more desktop users, but their software leaves a lot to be desired. I may have to pay, but there are better products available under active development.

 

Mod Managers are middleware, for lack of a better term. Mods -> Manager -> Game. So the idea of getting to the game quicker is about as valid as ideas come. Getting to the game quicker and creating a system that makes it work regardless of the inherent difficulties in doing so is damn near saintly. The desire to standardize that system comes as no surprise. But this is not like a PC replacing a typewriter. A PC objectively provided more functionality out of the gate, and I can still get a typewriter. Yes, there are other mod manager, but I for one am tired of the hodgepodge of underdeveloped and abandoned utilities (for the reason Arthmoor stated) and am enamored with the idea of an all in one solution with long-term support like Vortex.

 

But for those of us that need fast, specific load order management for a variety of reasons I will not try to guess, Vortex falls short. This subject has been beaten to death from a variety of angles, and maybe wrong angles, IDK. But I do think this supposed minority is not a secret, has a variety of valid reasons for existing, and should not be cast aside. I can't imagine this was not a concern during development, that use cases are that hard to come up with, and still do not fully realize why it is such a point of contention, other than the wish to standardize. Perhaps UI improvements and keyboard shortcuts will help, I hope so. I don't think drag and drop is a requirement, but what would be better? One thing that would make a dramatic difference to me is the ability to pin the double-click sidebar. But honestly what I'm trying to do is work around the software to sort my load order myself.

 

Anyway, I'm sure that made sense to no one and is full of typos. This thread should probably die, I can't stop looking at the emails :ninja:

[russw1138]

As a mod user with 1000's of hours in Fallout and ES games I look forward to taking Vortex for a spin when the public alpha starts.

 

Also I love loot as it helped me figure out load issues that I would have other had to spend hours troubleshooting

 

Now I have a solution that maybe the Nexus folks could make that I think would alleviate the fears of the folks that want a manual sorting . - Just state that you plan to keep NMM available till someone releases a manual sort plugin.

 

I think much the angst expressed in this thread might go away if you tell folks NMM is still going to be around for them

[UrizenDe]

LOOT typically doesn't make a perfect load order, but it does usually save a lot of time faffing around with all the mods and having to order them individually one by one. I have never run into a situation where LOOT gives me different load orders each time I sort. In fact, that shouldn't happen. I will say this, I never use xEdit other than for cleaning, not because I don't know how, but it's just an extra layer of crap I really don't want to deal with. I just pick and choose mods that don't require me to have to alter records. I already spend more time modding than gaming as it is lol. So I don't really know if xEdit would cause something like that, I don't really understand why it would though.

You must be using a different loot than me then. Is the loadorder drastically different, i.e. summod.esp moving from slot 08 to slot a8? No.

But will loot juggle the mod around within a certain range of 08? Absolutely.

[MarchinBunny]

Then stop acting like one.

I am not.

 

Except you did. You continue to do so in this very post:

Then you don't know how to read, because I didn't.

 

See? Dress it up all you like, but you are saying using load order in this manner is wrong. Who are you to judge the wrongness of it? Load order by categorical organization seems to work perfectly well for the console crowd. So I refuse to accept your assertion that the method itself is wrong.

Saying sorting by category is wrong isn't the same as saying sorting in general using drag and drop is wrong. As for why it's wrong, it's because that isn't what load order was intended for. I am not saying it can't work, I am, just saying that was not what it is there for. And that is a fact whether you like it or not.

 

So because a few people are so dumb as to be a danger to themselves, we should impose protections meant for them on everyone in the community?

Did I say that? Doesn't look like that is what I said. You need to seriously stop inputting your own interpretation into what I said, because it's pretty ridiculous. You keep twisting everything I say.

 

No. I don't. I base my experience with the numbers on those people who post and clearly demonstrate they didn't read. Those people are hopeless anyway and it would make no difference if they were using Vortex or installing everything file by file in Windows Explorer.

 

 

If a system can be made where reading is optional because things just work, why exactly is that a problem?

 

No, he's trying to protect a small subset of the userbase from itself at the cost of greatly inconveniencing the rest of the userbase. He's made it clear why though, even if I don't agree with the reasoning, and he's made it clear that it won't be changing. So you won. Your Inquisition can end now.

I really don't think that is what he is doing. I just think you are being ovcrdramatic about it. It's really not nearly as inconvenient as you seem to be making it. Nor is this situation as bad as you are making it. Like you are freaking out and making threats about disabling your mods manager download links. There is very likely going to be an extension made. How are you going to look back on this when that extension is made? Are you going to think your reaction to all of this was reasonable? Because if you ask me, you are not being reasonable in the least bit.

 

Except by dragging and dropping a file myself of course.

You can drag and drop and it will ask to create a rule from what I understand. So technically you still can.

 

You seem to be assuming an awful lot about why people have shown up in this thread and assigning truth value to their motives. Do you really think everyone in this thread is so dumb that they don't know what they're even asking for?

No, I am just going by what some people have said and based on the responses they have given. I just see a lot of unreasonable people, bickering about something that is likely going to be a part of Vortex eventually anyway using an extension.

 

Then maybe it would help if he'd qualify the statement instead of you both making blanket assertions that manually adjusting your load order never resolves a conflict. The same exact logic can be used to say that setting a LOOT rule doesn't either if you leave out the part of knowing why you're setting up the rule.

Just because you decided to read it that way, doesn't mean that is what was said. I suggest you reread what Tannin said because he literally described it exactly as I explained it. Heck, I think he even said it more clearly than I did.

 

No kidding. At what point did any of us ever claim that we just wanted to drag stuff around randomly without reason?

Again, his point is a lot of people don't have the knowledge to know where to drag and drop things. So he integrated LOOT into vortex and chose that being the best course of action for the long run. I don't get why people like you need to freak out so hard about this. Why not just give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Humor him at least. Let's see how it works and see if it turns out like he hopes. If it does, fantastic, that means everyone is happy. If it doesn't, well truth be told it's not going to hurt all that much. There are plenty of fallbacks that people can use, and I am sure if he finds it not working if a extension had not been made yet, he likely will switch it to the old method. And everyone will again, be happy.

 

If I set a LOOT rule in a completely random and uninformed way, what am I accomplishing? How does Vortex help if it will let you do that, but not drag it there by hand instead?

The idea is those who don't know what they are doing will not create rules. The hope is autosort will do it for them and generally speaking, mostly work I guess. To be clear, sorting with LOOT, at least in my experience has always given me a working game. Though, sometimes a compatibility issue can be found still. But the purpose is to at least get them to the point of a working load order, not a perfect load order. At least, that is my assumption here. It's certain better than throwing people into it without LOOT if you ask me.

 

No, I am listening to what both of you are saying and I'm saying you're both arguing from a bad position. Absolutely nobody in this thread has implied that people drag stuff around willy nilly without any reason for doing it. Yet that's what you both seem to imply the entire community has been doing for 15 years. If this is such a huge menace today, why wasn't it back in Morrowind's time? Or Oblivion? Why did Wrye not address this with Wrye Bash? Why didn't Timeslip address it with OBMM? Or Nexus with NMM? Why is it only today, with Vortex, that suddenly moving a file into a new position without the assistance of a nanny program a major problem that the majority of the community cannot mentally process?

I think it's important to understand that just because a solution had never been made doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. The solution was generally, to read the front page of the mod page and make sure to follow all the instruction there. It really wasn't dealt with because to many people who do mod a lot, this is just obvious. But it's really not to a lot of people. I don't know how many games you play that can also be modded, but to give you an example. I can load up minecraft in Curse/Twitch client, install a mod and it just works. I can install an entire list of mods, and it just works. When it comes to modding and ease of use, if you look around Nexus is lagging behind because people don't want to move forward or look into making things easier because they believe it shouldn't be easier or that it can't be easier. People have given up before they even tried. I am happy to say, Tannin is not one of those people it looks like. He is trying to move the community forward to keep up, with how things are elsewhere. To provide a user friendly ease of use experience. Again, why not just give a try instead of bashing it? Give it a month or two at the very least. At least he is trying, and I hoenslty think you should respect that.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Brabbit1987

[HadToRegister]

 

Then stop acting like one.

I am not.

 

Except you did. You continue to do so in this very post:

Then you don't know how to read, because I didn't.

 

 

 

Good lord, what are you? Nine years old?

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

Then stop acting like one.

I am not.

 

Except you did. You continue to do so in this very post:

Then you don't know how to read, because I didn't.

 

 

 

Good lord, what are you? Nine years old?

 

Cause I denied something that was claimed? How does that make me 9 years old? What are you 3? >.>

[JimboUK]

As the OP of this thread, I feel it behoves me to draw it to some sort of close.

 

A conclusion seems to have emerged that there could usefully be an extension to Vortex that makes manual adjustment to load order easier. Then, regardless of one's feelings about how load ordering should be done, other people would have a choice and the sum total of happiness in the world would increase.

 

Let's move forward. Suppose we put our heads together and actually designed the extension? It's too soon to cut code (we don't know how, yet, anyway) but software design is generally done before coding so we could get started on that.

 

Seems to me, that we could at least mull over these things:

• What do we actually want it to do? (a specification of requirements)
• How would we know if it was doing it correctly? (a testing protocol for functionality)
• What do we actually mean by easier? (usabilty criteria)
• How would we know if it really was easier (a testing protocol for usability)

And, last but not least,

• Who is going to volunteer to do it?

Perhaps it would be worth starting a new thread for this - I think we have pretty much worn out this one :D

 

 

Agreed.