Trying to understand

[HeyYou]

Currently, anyone can include any mod in a 'collection'. The various authors have no say in it at all. (and this is already happening via wabbajack, so, not like its something new.)

 

Your second example though, would be considered a 'derivative work', and the author DOES have some say in that.

 

List curators won't be paid. Not like an employee at any rate. They will be similar to mod authors, in that they author a list, and upload that, which the tool (vortex) can then install the mods in that list, and to some users game. Nexus take on it is to remove the right of mod authors to delete their mods, so that a collection will 'always work'..... Assuming it worked from the get-go. :)

[Flavian]

Thanks for your answers. So I don't understand why those curators can't "curate" those mod lists like mod authors "curate" their mods? Does Nexus take down mods that aren't up to date? Or maybe mods that don't work anymore because the mod they depend on is gone? I've seen some of those, but I didn't track them. Wouldn't it be the same, responsability wise, for mod list creators to take care of their mod lists, for example update their list if a mod gets deleted? Or is this the part where the money comes in and they can't implement the same rules for mod list creators/curators as for mod authors?

[frontaldnd]

Not going to lie, stable versions of mods that can't be deleted and modlists (aka collections) are a big reason I'm interested in using mods again.

Nobody cares about how leet you are at using mods that you can install a modlist with explicit instruction in a couple hours. Nobody cares about how many hours you've spent curating your own personal list (unless you share them and help the community, kudos if you do) of mods and so give no importance to simplified installations.

 

Reality is modding games has a huge barrier of entry, most people won't bother spending an hour figuring out mod conflicts and dependencies, let alone full days for some games. This is a massive step in the direction of popularizing modding to the masses if it works out as described.

And all the people repeatedly talking about the negatives (which in reality are mostly philosophical "who is right and who's wrong in my eyes"), completely ignore the fact that if modding's barrier of entry is mostly eliminated and it becomes main stream then development of mod tools for future titles and games is also a much more likely phenomena. Not to mention revenue for professional modders, publicity and all the things that come from mainstreaming something.

 

The average player doesn't even care that modding is a thing except that might change if modding was actually easy to install and manage.

 

I might sound like I don't care about mod creators, but I do. I think this is a step in the right direction that will benefit both modders and the creators of mods. I'm extremely grateful for the mod creators that share their creations on this, or any platform. At the same time I also understand why you'd feel like someone stepped on your rights, even tho I disagree. I can also see (and in reality everyone should see this too) why keeping immutable versions of mods is a necessity for a stable, mainstreamed and simplified process of applying mod lists and presets.

[Gruffydd]

Not going to lie, stable versions of mods that can't be deleted and modlists (aka collections) are a big reason I'm interested in using mods again.

Nobody cares about how leet you are at using mods that you can install a modlist with explicit instruction in a couple hours. Nobody cares about how many hours you've spent curating your own personal list (unless you share them and help the community, kudos if you do) of mods and so give no importance to simplified installations.

 

Reality is modding games has a huge barrier of entry, most people won't bother spending an hour figuring out mod conflicts and dependencies, let alone full days for some games. This is a massive step in the direction of popularizing modding to the masses if it works out as described.

And all the people repeatedly talking about the negatives (which in reality are mostly philosophical "who is right and who's wrong in my eyes"), completely ignore the fact that if modding's barrier of entry is mostly eliminated and it becomes main stream then development of mod tools for future titles and games is also a much more likely phenomena. Not to mention revenue for professional modders, publicity and all the things that come from mainstreaming something.

 

The average player doesn't even care that modding is a thing except that might change if modding was actually easy to install and manage.

 

Mods by their very nature can conflict with each other. Mod authors are writing material which changes the base game. If multiple people write something that changes the same part of the base game, there will be conflicts.

The solution being presented here is to entirely remove the mod author from the equation, to the point where the system you want (which is what's provided to paid subscribers here) doesn't even require that the user visit the mod page or even know that the mod exists (how many users who just want "click to install" are going to read the list of every mod included in a collection?). Needless to say, there's a sizeable chunk of the author community that isn't thrilled by this.

 

And just wait until little Mikey one button installs two collections, and then freaks out because they don't work together, when he was promised "it just works". Now, if he'd learned how to use mods, he might be able to figure out what's conflicting and fix it. But good luck to him getting anyone to look at two big collections and be willing to take the time to analyze them for him and tell him what isn't working and how to fix it.

 

Mod authors are hobbyists. We all do this for different reasons. We get very little in return. A system like the one you want (and are apparently getting if you pay) may remove a "barrier of entry" for people who want to use mods but can't or won't learn how, but it also removes a "barrier of exit" so to speak for mod authors who see what little we get back from modding (be it interaction with the community, user requests, or just a bit of respect or note of thanks every now and then) eliminated in favor of letting someone one-button install a collection. We have seen very little to indicate that if mods "go mainstream" mod authors themselves will see any tangible benefit from it, with the exception of a very few let in through the gates (such as those writing for the Creation Club). Combine that with the incredible amount of hate, disdain, mockery, and derision that mod authors get from the very people who are using what mod authors have shared for free with them, and is it any wonder that mod authors are taking their work elsewhere?

[MarchinBunny]

Not going to lie, stable versions of mods that can't be deleted and modlists (aka collections) are a big reason I'm interested in using mods again.

Nobody cares about how leet you are at using mods that you can install a modlist with explicit instruction in a couple hours. Nobody cares about how many hours you've spent curating your own personal list (unless you share them and help the community, kudos if you do) of mods and so give no importance to simplified installations.

 

Reality is modding games has a huge barrier of entry, most people won't bother spending an hour figuring out mod conflicts and dependencies, let alone full days for some games. This is a massive step in the direction of popularizing modding to the masses if it works out as described.

And all the people repeatedly talking about the negatives (which in reality are mostly philosophical "who is right and who's wrong in my eyes"), completely ignore the fact that if modding's barrier of entry is mostly eliminated and it becomes main stream then development of mod tools for future titles and games is also a much more likely phenomena. Not to mention revenue for professional modders, publicity and all the things that come from mainstreaming something.

 

The average player doesn't even care that modding is a thing except that might change if modding was actually easy to install and manage.

Most of those who are negative here are not negative about the collections themselves. It's the lack of being able to delete their mods. I think if Nexus allowed full projects to be deleted, as in old mod files would still be archived but an author could delete everything by deleting the project page and all ... it would more or less solve the main problem and their collection system will still work well enough.

 

Couse, I think some here would still complain, because there are obviously other issues that some see with it, like not being able to opt out, or not being able to delete individual files (like if they update their mod they would want to be able to delete the old version). Personally, I think these issues can't be compromised on. Opting out wouldn't work just due to how a single author could control things with that. Like imagine if a mod that is used by many other mods opted out. Or imagine mods that are typically considered essential opt out. What would be the point of collections if you need to end up having to download mods individually anyway? Totally defeats the entire purpose, especially when the goal is to make modding more accessible.

 

And being able to delete older files, would really put way too much work on a curator to maintain a collection. The larger it is the more of major pain it would be. Especially with newer games where mod updates can occur daily, it would just be a never ending ... trying to fix the collection due to a mod file no longer existing. And who is going to use collections if they are not working half the time? Then don't even get me started if a new mod release ends up having a bug but the older file is gone. It then means the entire collection could be brought down because of one mod author, and the curator's only choice would be to remove it (if it's not essential) or just wait for the patch. Which in turn can put way more stress on mod authors because if it's known that their mod alone is bringing down an entire collection ... I don't think that will go over well.

 

At least with the way it currently works, problems will be placed more on the curators. Whereas if they allow mod authors to delete individual files, problems that occur will be far more be associated with the mod authors than the curators because users can actually point fingers at the mod author that caused it.

[Gruffydd]

...

Is this the part where the money comes in and they can't implement the same rules for mod list creators/curators as for mod authors?

 

This is the part where money comes in and they won't implement the same rules for mod list creators/curators as for mod authors. Not can't. Won't.

All the rules have changed for how mod authors are treated here, and the gates are open for them to be changed again at any time with no notice. Some like it. Some most definitely do not.

And yes, as far as I see money is definitely a factor.

[MarchinBunny]

 

And just wait until little Mikey one button installs two collections, and then freaks out because they don't work together, when he was promised "it just works". Now, if he'd learned how to use mods, he might be able to figure out what's conflicting and fix it. But good luck to him getting anyone to look at two big collections and be willing to take the time to analyze them for him and tell him what isn't working and how to fix it.

I doubt you would even be able to install two collections on a single instance as I am fairly certain it's going to work in a similar fashion as profiles do. You install it, and it creates a new profile for that game, rather than installing it over your current profile.

 

Also, this whole idea of learning vs not learning is entirely irrelevant when we are talking about people who wouldn't have in the first place or just simply don't have the time. Which is the entire reason for trying to make it more accessible and easier to experience a modded game.

[frontaldnd]

 

Not going to lie, stable versions of mods that can't be deleted and modlists (aka collections) are a big reason I'm interested in using mods again.

Nobody cares about how leet you are at using mods that you can install a modlist with explicit instruction in a couple hours. Nobody cares about how many hours you've spent curating your own personal list (unless you share them and help the community, kudos if you do) of mods and so give no importance to simplified installations.

 

Reality is modding games has a huge barrier of entry, most people won't bother spending an hour figuring out mod conflicts and dependencies, let alone full days for some games. This is a massive step in the direction of popularizing modding to the masses if it works out as described.

And all the people repeatedly talking about the negatives (which in reality are mostly philosophical "who is right and who's wrong in my eyes"), completely ignore the fact that if modding's barrier of entry is mostly eliminated and it becomes main stream then development of mod tools for future titles and games is also a much more likely phenomena. Not to mention revenue for professional modders, publicity and all the things that come from mainstreaming something.

 

The average player doesn't even care that modding is a thing except that might change if modding was actually easy to install and manage.

Most of those who are negative here are not negative about the collections themselves. It's the lack of being able to delete their mods. I think if Nexus allowed full projects to be deleted, as in old mod files would still be archived but an author could delete everything by deleting the project page and all ... it would more or less solve the main problem and their collection system will still work well enough.

 

Couse, I think some here would still complain, because there are obviously other issues that some see with it, like not being able to opt out, or not being able to delete individual files (like if they update their mod they would want to be able to delete the old version). Personally, I think these issues can't be compromised on. Opting out wouldn't work just due to how a single author could control things with that. Like imagine if a mod that is used by many other mods opted out. Or imagine mods that are typically considered essential opt out. What would be the point of collections if you need to end up having to download mods individually anyway? Totally defeats the entire purpose, especially when the goal is to make modding more accessible.

 

And being able to delete older files, would really put way too much work on a curator to maintain a collection. The larger it is the more of major pain it would be. Especially with newer games where mod updates can occur daily, it would just be a never ending ... trying to fix the collection due to a mod file no longer existing. And who is going to use collections if they are not working half the time? Then don't even get me started if a new mod release ends up having a bug but the older file is gone. It then means the entire collection could be brought down because of one mod author, and the curator's only choice would be to remove it (if it's not essential) or just wait for the patch. Which in turn can put way more stress on mod authors because if it's known that their mod alone is bringing down an entire collection ... I don't think that will go over well.

 

At least with the way it currently works, problems will be placed more on the curators. Whereas if they allow mod authors to delete individual files, problems that occur will be far more be associated with the mod authors than the curators because users can actually point fingers at the mod author that caused it.

 

That's not working well enough tho, that completely destroys any stable modlist possibility. Specially for mods that have any dependency and then that dependency gets removed. For any thing to become mainstream it needs to be reliable. There's nothing reliable about mods being able to be deleted at a person's whim. Reality is the right to delete mods wasn't a thing, it was just a privilege given by nexus to it's mod creators. The moment you host something here by their wording you give them the rights to keep, change and distribute your work as nexus sees fit.

 

Collections or mod lists are not doable as nexus envisions them (reliable and stable) without preventing uncontrollable things like mood swings or mistakes. By always keeping a stable version that has been tested and working there is a fallback for all users, at all times..

 

Reality is, some people will be mad about it for some reason or another, this happens every time there is change to anything. Most people don't like changes when they get used to something. I personally see the possible benefits of this step far outweighing any negatives.

[Gruffydd]

 

 

And just wait until little Mikey one button installs two collections, and then freaks out because they don't work together, when he was promised "it just works". Now, if he'd learned how to use mods, he might be able to figure out what's conflicting and fix it. But good luck to him getting anyone to look at two big collections and be willing to take the time to analyze them for him and tell him what isn't working and how to fix it.

I doubt you would even be able to install two collections on a single instance as I am fairly certain it's going to work in a similar fashion as profiles do. You install it, and it creates a new profile for that game, rather than installing it over your current profile.

 

Also, this whole idea of learning vs not learning is entirely irrelevant when we are talking about people who wouldn't have in the first place or just simply don't have the time. Which is the entire reason for trying to make it more accessible and easier to experience a modded game.

 

Making it "more accessible and easier [for a user] to experience a modded game" while providing no benefit to the authors yet introducing aspects that many see as negative is not the solution. It only benefits one side of what should be a symbiotic relationship, and turns the other side into a resource rather than a partner. There's a term for that kind of relationship, too, and it's not a pretty one.

[frontaldnd]

 

Not going to lie, stable versions of mods that can't be deleted and modlists (aka collections) are a big reason I'm interested in using mods again.

Nobody cares about how leet you are at using mods that you can install a modlist with explicit instruction in a couple hours. Nobody cares about how many hours you've spent curating your own personal list (unless you share them and help the community, kudos if you do) of mods and so give no importance to simplified installations.

 

Reality is modding games has a huge barrier of entry, most people won't bother spending an hour figuring out mod conflicts and dependencies, let alone full days for some games. This is a massive step in the direction of popularizing modding to the masses if it works out as described.

And all the people repeatedly talking about the negatives (which in reality are mostly philosophical "who is right and who's wrong in my eyes"), completely ignore the fact that if modding's barrier of entry is mostly eliminated and it becomes main stream then development of mod tools for future titles and games is also a much more likely phenomena. Not to mention revenue for professional modders, publicity and all the things that come from mainstreaming something.

 

The average player doesn't even care that modding is a thing except that might change if modding was actually easy to install and manage.

 

Mods by their very nature can conflict with each other. Mod authors are writing material which changes the base game. If multiple people write something that changes the same part of the base game, there will be conflicts.

The solution being presented here is to entirely remove the mod author from the equation, to the point where the system you want (which is what's provided to paid subscribers here) doesn't even require that the user visit the mod page or even know that the mod exists (how many users who just want "click to install" are going to read the list of every mod included in a collection?). Needless to say, there's a sizeable chunk of the author community that isn't thrilled by this.

 

And just wait until little Mikey one button installs two collections, and then freaks out because they don't work together, when he was promised "it just works". Now, if he'd learned how to use mods, he might be able to figure out what's conflicting and fix it. But good luck to him getting anyone to look at two big collections and be willing to take the time to analyze them for him and tell him what isn't working and how to fix it.

 

Mod authors are hobbyists. We all do this for different reasons. We get very little in return. A system like the one you want (and are apparently getting if you pay) may remove a "barrier of entry" for people who want to use mods but can't or won't learn how, but it also removes a "barrier of exit" so to speak for mod authors who see what little we get back from modding (be it interaction with the community, user requests, or just a bit of respect or note of thanks every now and then) eliminated in favor of letting someone one-button install a collection. We have seen very little to indicate that if mods "go mainstream" mod authors themselves will see any tangible benefit from it, with the exception of a very few let in through the gates (such as those writing for the Creation Club). Combine that with the incredible amount of hate, disdain, mockery, and derision that mod authors get from the very people who are using what mod authors have shared for free with them, and is it any wonder that mod authors are taking their work elsewhere?

 

The people that would use easy installations and 1 click mod lists weren't ever going to communicate and/or learn how to mod by current means. These are the overall majority that wouldn't read a guide or even attempt to make a nexus account if it wasn't necessary for downloading mods.

The people that interact and build communities around mods and discords aren't going to go away because of this. Mod lists have been around forever, most people that use them don't bother commenting on the mods on those lists anyway.

The people that normally comment/interact are either people that encounter issues or want to get involved on the development of the mod/be nice and leave a word of thanks. Those aren't going anywhere just because there's an easier way to install mods. If anything they might be nicer and leave a thank you because instead of being frustrated with mod conflicts and installation processes, those tedious steps were taken care of for them and they can appreciate the mods for what they are.

 

Vortex could easily have a popup saying "INSTALLING 2 MODLISTS IS BAD IDEA, PLEASE DON'T" when someone tries so that really is a non argument, he was promised "this collection works on this version of the game" and nothing else. Unlike singular mods that can't promise anything because nobody has really curated and tested all interactions between all mods, but a carefully curated and stable (read: can't be removed by mod authors) list can have guarantees or close to it.

 

Also I'm fairly positive that once the barrier of entry is reduced you'll open the doors to a much broader mod user community that might actually participate/help content creators. You are saying that making something accessible is a bad thing and will bring terrible consequences. I really can't see how.