Is Bethesda Trying to Kill Modding Community?

[HeyYou]

 

Actually, I think beth DOES rely on the modding community. It increases the popularity of their games, and it is something they talk about on a regular basis. They made a point to state the Starfield was going to be moddable.....

I vaguely recall at least one discussion on this forum (likely in GMAD) about the degree to which modding does actually increase the popularity of Beth's games, the gist of which was that since people who mod their game make up only a small fraction of the total player base, modding doesn't have as much of an effect on popularity as you might think.

 

So I'm sceptical of the claim that Beth relies on the modding community because we don't know to what degree it increases the popularity of the games. It could be fairly negligible.

 

Beth takes ideas from mods, and implements them into subsequent games. Yes indeed. It is a great source of ideas for them, because it comes with NO LEGAL LIABILITY. Now, imagine if they 'copied' an idea from another publishers game..... The lawyers would have a field day.

That's not how it works. We have genres such as 'souls-like' and 'rogue-like' precisely because developers take ideas from other games and implement them into their own game or use them as inspiration. And I never used the word 'copied' - you used that term so you could strawman my comment.

 

Not to mention, Beth has actually HIRED modders. No, I am not talking CC content, I mean HIRED, as in full time employment. :smile: What better way to give yourself a HUGE talent pool to pick and choose from.

That doesn't mean they rely on the modding community. They hire from other developers as well. That doesn't mean they rely on other developers.

 

Back when that discussion took place in GMAD, that was true. However, look at what the membership numbers here have done since that time. :) I remember when the topic was 'getting 1 million users'.... today, it's over 40 million. Granted, Nexus supports quite a few games, but, the bulk of the files/downloads are for beth games..... none of the others even come close.

[gnarly1]

Back when that discussion took place in GMAD, that was true. However, look at what the membership numbers here have done since that time. :smile: I remember when the topic was 'getting 1 million users'.... today, it's over 40 million. Granted, Nexus supports quite a few games, but, the bulk of the files/downloads are for beth games..... none of the others even come close.

I seem to recall that discussion was only a couple of years ago. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Which topic are you referring to - I'm not following you there?

[showler]

"benefits from" =/= "relies on".

[gnarly1]

"benefits from" =/= "relies on".

+1

[HeyYou]

 

Back when that discussion took place in GMAD, that was true. However, look at what the membership numbers here have done since that time. :smile: I remember when the topic was 'getting 1 million users'.... today, it's over 40 million. Granted, Nexus supports quite a few games, but, the bulk of the files/downloads are for beth games..... none of the others even come close.

I seem to recall that discussion was only a couple of years ago. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Which topic are you referring to - I'm not following you there?

 

 

THe whole "does beth "need" the modding community" thing. I think that was mostly related to sales though, and given the numbers at the time, I was readily apparent that mods didn't do anything noticeable for sales. Longevity of the game though, yeah. People are still buying Oblivion. :) I haven't seen sales numbers for Morrowind..... I am not even sure it is out there in the world 'new' any more.

"benefits from" =/= "relies on".

Valid point. :D

[SnowFox35]

 

Longevity of the game though, yeah. People are still buying Oblivion. :smile:

Mods might have helped, but we do not know for certain if it is mods that Bethesda "needs" to provide longevity to sales. Although there is still a sales falloff range, Oblivion is one of those "classic" "must-play" games that has cemented itself deeply into many gaming communities. What I'm saying is, it's considered a timeless classic, which means that people have been and will be buying it for a long time after its initial release date. For a reference of what I'm talking about, just think of Half-Life 2's reputation, and its sales longevity is not tied to mods, but instead reputation. Sure, mods could help; but I wouldn't call it causation to Bethesda needing the modding community to make that happen.

 

"benefits from" =/= "relies on".

Exactly. Thank you for concisely packing that up back there.

[HeyYou]

 

 

Longevity of the game though, yeah. People are still buying Oblivion. :smile:

Mods might have helped, but we do not know for certain if it is mods that Bethesda "needs" to provide longevity to sales. Although there is still a sales falloff range, Oblivion is one of those "classic" "must-play" games that has cemented itself deeply into many gaming communities. What I'm saying is, it's considered a timeless classic, which means that people have been and will be buying it for a long time after its initial release date. For a reference of what I'm talking about, just think of Half-Life 2's reputation, and its sales longevity is not tied to mods, but instead reputation. Sure, mods could help; but I wouldn't call it causation to Bethesda needing the modding community to make that happen.

 

"benefits from" =/= "relies on".

Exactly. Thank you for concisely packing that up back there.

 

Beth games seem to sell well regardless. :) Sure, beth doesn't "need" mods to sell there games, but, I would wager it sure doesn't hurt. Morrowind is still out there, and still selling. :) A game that was released more than 20 years ago...... Looking at the sales numbers, Morrowind really started the roll for beth games, and sales numbers jumped dramatically from one game to the next. :)

 

That said, I am still of the opinion that Morrowind was the best game of the TES series..... The story was actually GOOD.

[SnowFox35]

 

That said, I am still of the opinion that Morrowind was the best game of the TES series..... The story was actually GOOD.

I've never tried Morrowind before, but you're making me want to.

 

 

 

Beth games seem to sell well regardless. :smile: Sure, beth doesn't "need" mods to sell there games, but, I would wager it sure doesn't hurt.

Basically our exact conclusion to the "Bethesda relies on the modding community" debate. Showler excellently summarized it as "benefits from =/= relies on". You are right, too, in that - Bethesda games sell well regardless of the modding community, but they do still benefit from the existence and popularity of mods.

[showler]

The problems with the "mods increase long term sales" theory include: Nobody but Beth has the information necessary to confirm whether this is true or to what degree it affects sales; even if it does affect long-term sales Bethesda is unlikely to prioritize those long-term sales over more immediate sales so expecting them to alter their plans to avoid interfering with mods is unlikely; the interference that their actions does produce only affects a very limited number of mods and is therefore unlikely to be much of a consideration.

 

And there are problems with the "modding is an idea factory/market research benefit" ideas as well. Mainly that much of the information is biased, redundant or contradictory.

 

Biased simply because mod users are a self-selecting group, not a random representative sampling of their total player base.

 

Redundant because the most popular mods tell Bethesda things they already knew. The Unofficial Patches tell them that people like bug-free games. They knew that already. The UOP also tell them that seven and a half years later they are still adding new fixes, which justifies their decision to just choose a cut-off point rather than being in an endless job of releasing updates to patch minor things. UI fixes and better graphics mods are also things they already know about. The design decisions they make are not based on lack of awareness they are based on cost/benefit.

 

Contradictory because if you look at mods to see what direction to take the next ES game, you'll find popular mods that make Skyrim more Morrowind/traditional CRPG like. And popular mods that make it more Souls like. And popular mods that make the combat more action RPG like. And popular mods that make the combat more realistic like. And popular mods that make it more JRPG like. More MMO like. More FPS like.

 

The modding community can give Bethesda more information, but not clear answers.

[HeyYou]

 

 

That said, I am still of the opinion that Morrowind was the best game of the TES series..... The story was actually GOOD.

I've never tried Morrowind before, but you're making me want to.

 

 

 

Beth games seem to sell well regardless. :smile: Sure, beth doesn't "need" mods to sell there games, but, I would wager it sure doesn't hurt.

Basically our exact conclusion to the "Bethesda relies on the modding community" debate. Showler excellently summarized it as "benefits from =/= relies on". You are right, too, in that - Bethesda games sell well regardless of the modding community, but they do still benefit from the existence and popularity of mods.

 

I highly recommend you at least try it. It's gotten dirt cheap over the years. :) The vanilla game IS dated, and looks it, but, there are a LOT of options out there to bring it up to more modern standards.

 

The problems with the "mods increase long term sales" theory include: Nobody but Beth has the information necessary to confirm whether this is true or to what degree it affects sales; even if it does affect long-term sales Bethesda is unlikely to prioritize those long-term sales over more immediate sales so expecting them to alter their plans to avoid interfering with mods is unlikely; the interference that their actions does produce only affects a very limited number of mods and is therefore unlikely to be much of a consideration.

 

And there are problems with the "modding is an idea factory/market research benefit" ideas as well. Mainly that much of the information is biased, redundant or contradictory.

 

Biased simply because mod users are a self-selecting group, not a random representative sampling of their total player base.

 

Redundant because the most popular mods tell Bethesda things they already knew. The Unofficial Patches tell them that people like bug-free games. They knew that already. The UOP also tell them that seven and a half years later they are still adding new fixes, which justifies their decision to just choose a cut-off point rather than being in an endless job of releasing updates to patch minor things. UI fixes and better graphics mods are also things they already know about. The design decisions they make are not based on lack of awareness they are based on cost/benefit.

 

Contradictory because if you look at mods to see what direction to take the next ES game, you'll find popular mods that make Skyrim more Morrowind/traditional CRPG like. And popular mods that make it more Souls like. And popular mods that make the combat more action RPG like. And popular mods that make the combat more realistic like. And popular mods that make it more JRPG like. More MMO like. More FPS like.

 

The modding community can give Bethesda more information, but not clear answers.

Yep, beth is aware that PC players dislike their UI.... probably because, from my understanding, the games have been developed on XBox, so the UI is more geared to be simple, for use with a controller, not keyboard/mouse. One of the reasons UI mods are some of the first to come out. :D

 

I don't expect beth to alter there patching strategy to help out modders either. They "support" mods, they don't prioritize mod makers/users. After all, while yes indeed, they ARE popular, we still represent a fraction of the game players. That, and I think better than 2/3rds of players are on console. That may change with Starfield, as it isn't being released on PlayStation at all this time around.... But, owned by Microsloth now, so, that's not really a surprise either.