Is Bethesda Trying to Kill Modding Community?

[xrayy]

 

 

Just a small point, but the 1.6+ release was simply a recompile of version 1.5x with a few fixes thrown in to correct errors introduced by the compile. Bethesda didn't recompile to break mods, but to upgrade the game and to get rid of some of the performance issues inherent in the prior version of the compiler.

 

The fact that mods which hook into the executable broke is undeniable, but that was a foreseeable side effect and by no means deliberate. So all this whining about Bethesda deliberately breaking mods and subverting the modding community is just so much bullcrap. It is nothing more than a tantrum by a few entitled players who think that they are the most important thing in the gaming universe, and they need to grow up and get over themselves.

i do not blame bethesda for this. i think this is more a "steam forced update" problem. bethesda is responsible to take this problem into account imho, to take care for customers and at least to put pressure on steam to allow the user to stop forced updates. i`m not aware they did or steam offers such an option officially. not allowing the gamer to decide to install an update or not is in my opinion the true scandal and problem. but i'm sure bethesda was always aware of that and the priority was to make money in a short time and not to care for the rights of a paying gamer. what i truly hate is if the customer is just handled as paying debile victim and not as a customer with rights and the ability to decide for himself what is the best for him and if he allows an update or not.

 

 

Oh really? In your own words ...

 

 

You seem woefully uninformed about everything.

 

They gave the script extender team early access so that it could be updated pretty much at launch. Did you expect them to also do that with every single mod author who has a mod with a dll file?

 

Yes, there were some initial bugs that required more patching. That's pretty much inevitable. No matter how much QA you do, once you release it to the public it is being used on computers with far more configuration permutations than you could ever test for. Expecting Bethesda to manage to do something that no other game company is capable of doing is absurd.

no, i was informed about that. thanks for asking before judging! i did not say that there was no cooperation. but we know the result. just a little naive as i said and obviously not properly tested. if my company would test their products like bethesda their games it would be a huge security risk. seems to have only minor consequences like the fo76 desaster. but we are not part of gaming industry. the cooperation was a step in the right direction. i assume their planning or testing was insufficient or they ran out of time before release. i don't know. do i have to care for that as a paying gamer ? it is on bethesda to deliver quality if they get money for their product.

 

 

 

 

 

what was bethesda's idea and plan before others (as always) solved their problems and offered the rollback option for frustrated gamers? why the severe ae patch and update fails and headache for consumers ?

The plan was to celebrate the anniversary of Skyrim by offering free content and a highly discounted CC pack to their consumers. A plan that benefited the VAST MAJORITY of those consumers.

 

At no point was their plan to hurt the modding community. It was an unavoidable side effect.

 

 

for sure, it was a good and nice idea and their goal was not to hurt. but after a miserable release of fo76 it is more than naive what happened with ae - if this was not just a planned financial coup.

the problem is they made a lot of money with it and i can not see how they act with a minimum of responsibility or to substantially support and thank modding community which helps during rough times and also in good times. at least i have no info about that.

knowing their responsibilities and with their experience of over a decade in gaming business i'm really speechless and surprised how careless they planned, tested and acted while making cash with ae day by day. outcome for consumers: some fishnets and cc content nobody asked for and a bunch of unsolved problems regarding backward compatibilty without solving and testing this in time before release.

the plan was ok and also making some money with it is ok. but the unprepared release and planning was naive but a financial success. reminds me of what happened during fo76 release. just unbelievable... learning curve since then: just plain flat but rich.

 

And that is just from the two prior posts. So, which am I to believe? Your statement "I do not blame Bethesda for this", or the rest of the blame fixing which preceded that statement?

 

read my content and put it in context to get my message here and you will easily and fully understand what i say. i say that bethesda is not to blame (alone) but i also say two sentences later that they are responsible for their product getting the money for it. that is my simple message in context. understand it or ignore and highlight an judge what you want. it has nothing to do with my message which should be clear now.

one thing does not exclude the other - right ?

you and showler just did not get this important part (as also some other posts before). you appear to me like a captive of your tunnel view.

it is not on me to teach reading comprehension and i know about the human weakness to read and understand with a tunnel view while running out of arguments. if my content is not clear in full context please ask instead of making a mess with your highlighting and out of context judging instead of asking. this makes this debate nearly impossible for me.

i'm not a native english speaker. so please ask and turn out your tunnel view before.

so i'm ok with what happened here - but not 3x in a row. your and showlers highlighting just shifts the focus (or gaslights) instead of getting my content in the right context. so sorry - read again, get the context and we can try again to understand each other without building word walls out of context.

i just ignore these latest posts. please just understand that someone still can have responsibilities even if not blamed by someone like me. and i clearly said that bethesda is responsible (and others too - especially all who make money with this game and the forced updates like steam).

 

bethesda and steam can make mistakes - but there is a difference if they repeatedly make much money with these same mistakes while leaving others alone with their repeated same "mistakes" and improper planning instead of correcting these "mistakes".

just one wish: don't forget to turn out the fan boy tunnel view before responding. bethesda and steam are rich companies for a reason and i don't say they do nothing. but they do not more than symbolic things for the gamers while optimizing their win marges. i miss simple features like full control over my installation while kicking drm. gog is the only bright light on the horizon not the big an rich companies - why ?

 

so please do not try to defend rich companies maximizing money on the back of their customers. i will never feel sympathy for them as long as they make their "mistakes" repeatedly and make money with it. customer friendly companies showing responsibility for heir customers like gog need to be supported (even if it comes too late for me and skyrim) bethesda and steam act mainly like their only priority is to maximize income. and it does not help and is no excuse that other companies act even worse and without a social responsibilty they should have and show as a rich and powerful company.

[ScytheBearer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just a small point, but the 1.6+ release was simply a recompile of version 1.5x with a few fixes thrown in to correct errors introduced by the compile. Bethesda didn't recompile to break mods, but to upgrade the game and to get rid of some of the performance issues inherent in the prior version of the compiler.

 

The fact that mods which hook into the executable broke is undeniable, but that was a foreseeable side effect and by no means deliberate. So all this whining about Bethesda deliberately breaking mods and subverting the modding community is just so much bullcrap. It is nothing more than a tantrum by a few entitled players who think that they are the most important thing in the gaming universe, and they need to grow up and get over themselves.

i do not blame bethesda for this. i think this is more a "steam forced update" problem. bethesda is responsible to take this problem into account imho, to take care for customers and at least to put pressure on steam to allow the user to stop forced updates. i`m not aware they did or steam offers such an option officially. not allowing the gamer to decide to install an update or not is in my opinion the true scandal and problem. but i'm sure bethesda was always aware of that and the priority was to make money in a short time and not to care for the rights of a paying gamer. what i truly hate is if the customer is just handled as paying debile victim and not as a customer with rights and the ability to decide for himself what is the best for him and if he allows an update or not.

 

 

Oh really? In your own words ...

 

 

You seem woefully uninformed about everything.

 

They gave the script extender team early access so that it could be updated pretty much at launch. Did you expect them to also do that with every single mod author who has a mod with a dll file?

 

Yes, there were some initial bugs that required more patching. That's pretty much inevitable. No matter how much QA you do, once you release it to the public it is being used on computers with far more configuration permutations than you could ever test for. Expecting Bethesda to manage to do something that no other game company is capable of doing is absurd.

no, i was informed about that. thanks for asking before judging! i did not say that there was no cooperation. but we know the result. just a little naive as i said and obviously not properly tested. if my company would test their products like bethesda their games it would be a huge security risk. seems to have only minor consequences like the fo76 desaster. but we are not part of gaming industry. the cooperation was a step in the right direction. i assume their planning or testing was insufficient or they ran out of time before release. i don't know. do i have to care for that as a paying gamer ? it is on bethesda to deliver quality if they get money for their product.

 

 

 

 

 

what was bethesda's idea and plan before others (as always) solved their problems and offered the rollback option for frustrated gamers? why the severe ae patch and update fails and headache for consumers ?

The plan was to celebrate the anniversary of Skyrim by offering free content and a highly discounted CC pack to their consumers. A plan that benefited the VAST MAJORITY of those consumers.

 

At no point was their plan to hurt the modding community. It was an unavoidable side effect.

 

 

for sure, it was a good and nice idea and their goal was not to hurt. but after a miserable release of fo76 it is more than naive what happened with ae - if this was not just a planned financial coup.

the problem is they made a lot of money with it and i can not see how they act with a minimum of responsibility or to substantially support and thank modding community which helps during rough times and also in good times. at least i have no info about that.

knowing their responsibilities and with their experience of over a decade in gaming business i'm really speechless and surprised how careless they planned, tested and acted while making cash with ae day by day. outcome for consumers: some fishnets and cc content nobody asked for and a bunch of unsolved problems regarding backward compatibilty without solving and testing this in time before release.

the plan was ok and also making some money with it is ok. but the unprepared release and planning was naive but a financial success. reminds me of what happened during fo76 release. just unbelievable... learning curve since then: just plain flat but rich.

 

And that is just from the two prior posts. So, which am I to believe? Your statement "I do not blame Bethesda for this", or the rest of the blame fixing which preceded that statement?

 

 

 

 

read my content and put it in context to get my message here and you will easily and fully understand what i say. i say that bethesda is not to blame (alone) but i also say two sentences later that they are responsible for their product getting the money for it. that is my simple message in context. understand it or ignore and highlight an judge what you want. it has nothing to do with my message which should be clear now.

one thing does not exclude the other - right ?

you and showler just did not get this important part (as also some other posts before). you appear to me like a captive of your tunnel view.

it is not on me to teach reading comprehension and i know about the human weakness to read and understand with a tunnel view while running out of arguments. if my content is not clear in full context please ask instead of making a mess with your highlighting and out of context judging instead of asking. this makes this debate nearly impossible for me.

i'm not a native english speaker. so please ask and turn out your tunnel view before.

so i'm ok with what happened here - but not 3x in a row. your and showlers highlighting just shifts the focus (or gaslights) instead of getting my content in the right context. so sorry - read again, get the context and we can try again to understand each other without building word walls out of context.

i just ignore these latest posts. please just understand that someone still can have responsibilities even if not blamed by someone like me. and i clearly said that bethesda is responsible (and others too - especially all who make money with this game and the forced updates like steam).

 

bethesda and steam can make mistakes - but there is a difference if they repeatedly make much money with these same mistakes while leaving others alone with their repeated same "mistakes" and improper planning instead of correcting these "mistakes".

 

I deliberately left EVERYTHING in context and simply highlighted your salient points. So your very first statement is based in a falsehood, a prevarication, ... a lie.

 

And you don't get any better from there. You make contradictory statements, and when your own words demonstrate your duplicity, you attempt to obfuscate the truth by making spurious accusations sprinkled with ad hominems. All in a vain attempt to shift the focus off you and your contrary statements.

 

You are a waste of my time. But by all means, continue with your attempts to have it both ways. Hopefully others now see you for what you are and will ignore you, as I will.

[xrayy]

"read my content and put it in context to get my message here and you will easily and fully understand what i say. i say that bethesda is not to blame (alone) but i also say two sentences later that they are responsible for their product getting the money for it. that is my simple message in context. understand it or ignore and highlight an judge what you want. it has nothing to do with my message which should be clear now."

 

 

you really managed to fail even in this short paragraph above and placed your tunnel view marking in orange but also you ignored the relevant and clearly highlighted, underlined and important content by me. tunnel view picking or no interest from your side ? no comment.

 

you show that you are not interested in a content driven open debate. and i have no interest to praise bethesda or or to defend them for doing nothing worthy. due to a lack of hope you better discuss with others. my message is clear and im not interested in discussing your markings and any word walls not bringing anything new to the topic.

 

have a great day and if you get personal its your decision. i ignore that. :smile:

[showler]

The problem is that you keep saying that Bethesda is responsible for their product, but the script extenders are not their product.

 

As long as the game works vanilla, that's their legal responsibility covered. As long as it works with mods made with the tools they provide that's their moral responsibility covered. Everything else is up to you.

 

As for money, the last time I paid for Skyrim was over ten years ago. How much more do they owe me?

[xrayy]

The problem is that you keep saying that Bethesda is responsible for their product, but the script extenders are not their product.

 

As long as the game works vanilla, that's their legal responsibility covered. As long as it works with mods made with the tools they provide that's their moral responsibility covered. Everything else is up to you.

 

As for money, the last time I paid for Skyrim was over ten years ago. How much more do they owe me?

that is true and it makes sense and it is only a problem as long bethesda do not care for it. for me the (main) product is clearly the game and i've never said that the extender counts as a game simply because it's essential for many top mods, but not to play vanilla skyrim. and it is still third party driven. even if it is clearly an essential part regarding modding it is still somehow ignored over a decade to be directly or at least fully supported or integrated by bethesda. i can only guess why: console compatibility, or bethesda takes this extension not as what it truely is: a gem and worth to be an integral part of the game with its extensions! but no - not for bethesda a reason to make it an essential part by integration.

why is it not integrated in the game after 10 years or fully supported by bethesda ? money? maybe because it does not generate enough extra money for bethesda ? i don't know but it wold be a key point to solve many mod related problems as an integral part of the game and to (maybe) enrich all plattforms with top mod compatibility

 

thanks for adding this point to a series of decisions (10 years time) that seem strange and show a lack of bethesda strategy. priorizing CC content (fishnets) over skse which enables so many hot mods over ten years seems to me some of the big bethesda fails or at least short sighted and i personally would categorize it as a money driven short sighted fail if extender team itself is not the reason. the extender is an essential part of a series of gembryo related games over 15 years now. 15 years no reaction or integration from bethesda while supporting cc is nicely said pure igorance. skse is a raw diamond imho and I don't know the problem and while it is not prorized by bethesda for over a decade compared to other, much more useless projects.

 

thanks for bringing the debate in the direction which makes sense. if we all try to help or at least discuss some obvious and major fails or annoyances. maybe someone with more influnence can place such points in the right meeting or bring the right people together. praising and defending bethesda will change definitely and literally nothing. but why not discussing extender integration also including consoles if the specs in the meantime allow? it would be a benefit for modding and platform independent compatibility for the top mods - if bethesda hopefully realizes this project could be also beneficial to them in long term.

topics like this one would be history.

 

my vote: the next big releases should contain full mod extender integration not only for skyrim but also for fo4, plattform independent or at least for pc.

[showler]

The script extenders are, by definition, an extension of the functions Bethesda needed for the game. If they were integrated they would no longer be extensions, just the game.

 

But that would remove control over the development of those extensions away from the modding community to Bethesda. Which means no cooperative development from the many contributors who make the extension now, and far less responsiveness to community requests.

 

But, more importantly, it would have almost no effect on the problem of mods needing to be updated after a patch. As it is now, when Bethesda issues a patch the script extenders are updated very quickly, and any mod that only uses SE papyrus functions works immediately. Anything that uses a DLL for memory injection needs to be updated to the new executable. If Bethesda integrated the SE you'd only end up saving the short time for the SE update. Mod authors would still need to update the DLL type mods.

 

There would be very little benefit and a possibly great cost to modders if the SE were integrated by Bethesda.

[xrayy]

if this is the sad truth that the extender and it's developers can not be integrated under one roof with bethesda developers and no benefit can be gained i'm out of ideas for today. really nobody can solve exe adress dependencies - who can if not bethesda ? who provides the exe or is this all mod specfic without an option to offer fixed addresses or address tables for all times ? :wink:

i hoped if the generation of the game exe after a patch could be changed from a dynamic to a static model (at least for the extender critical parts) so that a solution is possible if extender and game developers work together.

[showler]

I'm not sure if it's possible to give fixed addresses for something like this.

 

It's really too bad that some of the big mods can't use the Address Library system, since that would virtually eliminate all the problems people are having.

[StormWolf01]

I'm not sure if it's possible to give fixed addresses for something like this.

 

It's really too bad that some of the big mods can't use the Address Library system, since that would virtually eliminate all the problems people are having.

Isn't there something like that for FO4/F4SE?

isn't it supposed to fool mods into thinking that you have a different (newer) version of f4se that what you really do, because of using an older version of the game, or something along those lines?

Sorry to sound stupid. But this isn't something that I've really delved into.

[showler]

I think it's basically a translation layer. It alters the offsets for the memory injection based on what version of the game you are using. So, you install the Address Library and a different "translation" for each game version and the mod uses the one that matches in order to make sure everything lines up correctly.

 

The AL author seems to be able to produce a new translation version within a few hours of a game update, so any mod that relies on the Address Library is good to go as soon as the Script Extender and the Address Library have been updated, without the mod author having to alter the mod itself at all.

 

But, for reasons that are too complicated for my little brain, mods like RaceMenu, a lot of the various important fix DLLs and some other large mods can't seem to use the Address Library and need to be individually updated for every version.