Abramul Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 By definition, virii are immune to antibiotics. I assume you meant bacteria. Why do you assume that the existence of life requires an outside influence? If life didn't exist, would you be asking that question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark0ne Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 And if this universe is supposedly so random, surely it should have got screwed up during the process, and they should be creating more random shapes rather than all the same. I find it a little hard to believe, personally... Maybe it did get screwed up in the 1,234,654,278,982,123,214,903,467,128,445,234 other chances the universe has had? Infinite chances is a big number ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switch Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Oh, duh, sorry, yes I meant bacteria. Heh. I "assume" that it does just because of the evidence I've already spoken of. The way we've evolved, our civilisation, the universe, even Chaos. I can't believe all that stemmed from complete randomness. I mean, everything in society has structure, our bodies are incredible organic machines, we can barely even begin to understand our brains and how they work. I know what you're thinking, Chaos supports the complete randomness theory, I don't think it does. Every snowflake looks the same, and yet different in a microscopic unique way. If things were created by randomness, by a random event, no entity behind it, why have this sort of incredible detail in the universe? If it was created by an entity who cared, who wanted that level of detail maybe, but by a random creative explosion? Why have any sort of structure at all? Why aren't we just balls of consciousness floating around in some sort of bizarre half-world? Some may find this all perfectly believable, but I just can't. I take one look at the universe and think "someone created this". It's not an assumption, it's something I know, instinctively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Regarding bees, the honeycomb is one of the strongest structures known - ask any engineer. Those bees who tried some fancy other shape probably had their hives collapse, and thus their strains died out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramul Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Switch, to clarify: To ask any questions regarding the likelyhood of our existance has a prerequisite. Existance. The asking of such questions means that you already are around to ask them, which renders ANY arguments based on probability absolutely meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switch Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Ah yeah sorry, I forgot to reply to that part of your post Abramul ^^ you make a good point, of course. I suppose this debate is rather pointless. I mean, none of us can prove anything. Despite what scientists would like to think, they weren't there at the big bang, and they do not know everything, if anything, about what has truly happened. They just take samples of things in the current universe and extrapolate from that mathematical solutions that cover what they believe happened. It's the same with religion, I suppose. We can't prove anything, we just believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm sorry Darnoc, but I don't accept sites with a religious bias as credible evidence. If you could find a purely scientific site I'll examine this unlikely theory. Well, I'm sorry too, but I understand. As I explained, concerning science I rely on books and not on the internet, so I am not sure if I can provide you with anything from the internet. I'll have to do some extensive internet search to find a usefull article. The one I gave is really quite bad and was just the first thing I found. I'll come back to this as soon as I find a usefull link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Thanks - I'd be interested in reading about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Like, for instance, these new super viruses that are immune to all forms of antibiotics form in hospitals due to all the possible agents being present. ALL viruses are immune to antibiotics. You meant bacteria, and in that case it's a very clear case of evolution to adapt to circumstances. This is well understood, and there is no requirement for some higher purpose behind it.If things were created by randomness, by a random event, no entity behind it, why have this sort of incredible detail in the universe? Because all this "detail" is incredibly chaotic. I suggest you remember the definition of "order": a perfect crystal at absolute zero. There is very little order in our universe. Your snowflake example is actually a perfect example. Each snowflake has subtle flaws and differences, because it is produced completely randomly. If there was some kind of higher power enforcing order, we would have identical snowflakes. Why have any sort of structure at all? Why aren't we just balls of consciousness floating around in some sort of bizarre half-world? We don't have any structure at all. Our world is far to the chaos end of the order/chaos scale, just like entropy demands. The only reason you see it as normal and not some bizarre half-world is because you're used to it. Just like if you were a ball of consciousness, you'd see that as "normal" and this world as completely bizarre. Some may find this all perfectly believable, but I just can't. I take one look at the universe and think "someone created this". It's not an assumption, it's something I know, instinctively. No, it's the definition of assumption. Without any supporting evidence at all, you assume some conclusion. "I just know" is not supporting evidence. And I'd bet your instinct comes from the fact that since you were a child, you've been taught that an intelligent higher power created our universe. That's your default state of mind. And of course you could never be wrong, so you have to refuse to accept any statements that disagree with that opinion. ================================================= Regarding bees, the honeycomb is one of the strongest structures known - ask any engineer. More importantly, it allows a high volume for each cell, and an efficient use of materials/weight. A triangle grid would be stronger, but would provide far less space in each cell, possibly to the point of making it useless. But as said earlier, the bees didn't calculate it and do all the engineering problems to reach this conclusion. It would've been a long process of trial and error, with the failures dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switch Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I would agree with your point of view, if you could actually supply any real evidence. I am perfectly open to any others point of view, however I am not willing to believe it myself without some form of proper evidence. I have not seen any being supplied thus far. I see your point about the snowflake though, I had previously misunderstood and thought that they were all basically the same just with some differences, but I think I was wrong there, they're all different. But this doesn't really seem to support either theory very much. It may be random, but the universe could have been created with this randomness in mind. Yes, I meant bacteria, as I had stated earlier. Um, you say there is very little order in our universe, but I see a lot. The universe is one huge network of galaxies. These galaxies exist due to gravity pulling it together. Inside the galaxies are stars, large balls of energy that can light up an entire solar system. Planets revolve around them due to asteroids collecting due to gravity until a large sphere is formed. The sun helps form planets that support life, help the flowers, trees, etc grow. Trees create and recycle oxygen, which allows things to live and breathe. Etc and so on. There are definite laws and physics that govern everything. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, there is some randomness in it all, but just because it is random here and there, why should that mean that all existance occurred randomly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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