On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[bootrocket]

Yes, well said, and having readdressed the subject so cogently and accessibly, Dark0ne, many loyal Nexus comrades, whom I count myself among, have previously shared their concerns with respect to copyright "confusion" in months past. In short, as you well know, the writing was on the wall.

 

I would just add, or volunteer, that in spite of a premium member status, I would be proud to contribute some sum on a periodic basis to retain the services of one, or several, copyright attorneys, if we don't already have a few. ( I am not one, by the way.) I find that sampling, as addressed in the recording industry, and found or assemblage art, as addressed in the visual art community for over one hundred years, may contain especially relevant case histories that champion our struggle.

 

Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not looking for a fight. Addressing these concerns in a timely manner would not simply give our mod creators the respect they deserve as artists, but would have the potential to make Bethesda and Zenimax not simply better businesses, but help establish them as virtual art advocates. That couldn't hurt.

[Eiries]

In response to post #39464605. #39464780, #39464890, #39464925, #39465125, #39465265, #39465995 are all replies on the same post.

Sithspecter wrote: I can feel the hypocrisy flowing through you.

How can you say;

"That list is by no means exhaustive, and there’s lots of other justifiable reasons for not wanting to share their mods on other sites. At the end of the day, we, the mod users, have absolutely no rights whatsoever in demanding mod authors do or do not do something with their mods. Nor do we have any right to take a mod and upload it somewhere else, just because other people want it."

After you have just uploaded tens of thousands of mods from Gamefront without a lick of consent from even ACTIVE USERS such as myself??

KryliaViru wrote: That's because that site was shutting down, though, and there were a lot of old mods on there often exclusive to it.

EDIT; However, I am not the official voice of Nexus, so I don't represent their views... I am just stating what I assume to be the reason.

Brigand231 wrote: If you read the article posted about that transfer, Nexus staff worked with Gamefront to make it happen. Did you bother to ask if, perhaps just maybe, there was a transfer of lease or permissions or rights during the process?

Jokerine wrote: I assume you already reported it and asked it to be taken down then?

Sithspecter wrote: I have, and no transfer or lease or permissions was given. I had over a dozen mods stolen from me from Nexus despite being an active member here and uploading mods that were more current to Nexus.

I've read every article on this subject, I've interfaced with Nexus staff on this and I've attempted to start cleaning up the Knights of the Old Republic section by reporting duplicate, bugged, or older versions of mods. There used to be only a hundred or so Knights of the Old Republic mods on Nexus, all of decent quality. Now there are over nine hundred, often bugged or incompatible mods that have flooded the section.

Nexus still has no leg to stand on when saying "Nor do we have any right to take a mod and upload it somewhere else, just because other people want it."

Nexus is right that other sites shouldn't steal mods, but the hypocrisy is overwhelming.

Dark0ne wrote: Ultimately there's an extremely different argument between "77,000 mods are about to be completely lost, tens of thousands of which aren't available anywhere else, for games long since their prime, and won't ever be available again" and what's discussed in this article.

You can try to draw parallels all you like, but I fundamentally disagree with you, despite understanding where you're coming from.

I believe you're already discussing this actively with SirSalami via email and helping where you can, so I think we'll leave it to that.

Sithspecter wrote: I'm not saying it was bad to save them, but saving them doesn't require an immediate release. Previously I was extremely impressed with Nexus interface, easy upload system, and professional appearance. This is what I expected:

1. Download and archive the files, screenshots, and descriptions.
2. Sort through the files, noting any duplicates, files with multiple version updates, or files that were bugged.
3. Attempt to contact authors. Obviously you won't reach every one, but at least try it. I am an active member at Nexus, and I contribute content here. It wouldn't be hard to find me.
4. Attempt to interface with the modding communities.
5. After a month or so with no contact from mod authors, then upload the mods with the caveat that if they modder returns, they can claim their file.

Instead, you just did the easy steps. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been done, I'm saying it should have been handled better.

I realize there are 77,000 files, and that's a huge amount of people to try to contact, but that's what you signed up for by deciding to archive those files.

Archiving sites that are going to die is an extremely common, and quite often respectable, practice. "Active users" won't count for much when the domain dies.

As stated in the previous article, if you own mods you wish to claim editing rights to, or simple don't want here for whatever reason, you can either email them, or just hit the report button and write out what you want in the box.

[Nitrox22]

Thanks for the Q&A part. I've never used the CK so I didn't know about eh licencing agreement so it was really interesting to learn and now I have a point against my friend who doesn't think mod authors own their mods. It in the agreement for the CK! This was a really interesting read, thanks for sharing.

[GamerPoets]

This is something that I shared in a different forum/site and while that topic was slightly different it was still brought about because of the topic here. I thought I'd paste what I wrote here for those of you who care to read it.

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This is a generalized statement. I have no problem talking directly to individuals if I feel that I need to lol, so don't think that I'm beating around the bush. I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject at large. If I didn't respect everyone's comments thus far I wouldn't take the time to type this. There are some people that I have a lot of respect for who are posting in this topic, who have done a lot to help me on my modding journey and I wanted to share my thoughts with them.

 

What I feel this all comes down to is this...

 

Creative property in any form (music, television, paintings, mods) is one or more people devoting a large amount of their life (whether it's hours, weeks, months or years) to something that they believe in one way or another.

 

Regarding mods and nexus and other sites, there should definitely be some sort of check box or something that says "yes, allow others to use my mod as they wish" "no, you cannot upload it elsewhere" " after this amount of time you can... blah blah blah" or whatever.. you know? I also feel that once someone uploads a mod that shouldn't be able to just pull it away from those who use it by removing it (I'll say why at the end of this book I'm writing lol) But none of that exists yet as far as I know so it's a moot point.

 

So..

 

To guess at what someone else is feeling about this subject, if they have not said anything either way about it, (before disappearing or not) or to think that they "should" feel how you do on the subject (whether they actually do agree or not) is selfish, un-thoughtful and borderline narcissistic among other things. Words have definitions and regarding this situation to take someone else's work (and don't be fooled, because whether it is "fun" or not it is "work") is to be those words and that type of person. (The type of person that most people in this community want nothing to do with and to not be a part of. Which is the only reason why people like me even consider to continue being a part of it and to put so much effort into what we do. There is enough BS in "real life" that I don't need it to ooze into my passions or hobbies and many feel that way, too. The reason that many stick around the community, and continue to create mods and to support it, damn sure isn't the replay-ability of Skyrim for 5 years+lol).

 

Summary of all that: If you don't know how someone feels it's not your place to assume (that's with anything in life)...continuing on =)

 

If someone says that credit is enough then cool, credit them and do as you wish. But if someone states that they want their mods only on nexus then they should be respected. You don't know what creating that mod did for this person. It could have been their way to get through a tough time in life. It could have been something that they poured every piece of themselves into creatively to prove to themselves that they could do it. It could be a simple form of therapy or just a hobby. Perhaps the mod author has something against the other sites. Perhaps the mod author has a strong personal connection to nexus and they want to give back to it for whatever nexus "gave" to them personally when they needed something to be given to them. It's not your "right" to guess or to even be allowed to know how they feel unless they care to share their reasons with you.

 

When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them.

 

On the other hand, when someone makes a song and sells it (just an example) and puts it on the radio there are large amounts of people who will fall in love with it. Once you have created something and given it to the world it is no longer 100% the creators. It's just not. There's no two ways about it. When you allow someone else to develop an attachment to something (minor or large, emotional or whatever) that you have created you have entitled that person to be able to listen to it, watch it, or use it, whatever it is as often as they care too or need to. If the initial requirements were for that person to pay for it upfront so be it. If the wishes of this person were for you to only play with these works on a specific version of a game, then that is what they are. You don't need a law to tell you how not to be an A-hole. If you have the desire to bring that mod to a "new level" then "you" "need" to do the work and put that same care and effort into as the original creator did to both respect and honor it and not just "bootleg their CD" and give it out elsewhere... because when you do that you go from being a supporter who deserves you're own piece of what you fell in love with, regarding their work, to a hustler (which I know a great deal about in "real life" lol). A hustler who may not have only ruined this experience/passtime/hobby/passion/whatever that a mod author (person) once needed but you have potentially robbed them of their passion by tainting it with selfish actions. Who know's what creating these mods really allowed this person to get through in life. And if they are being a dick to others... have you heard how horrible people in comments can be and how annoying? I didn't create a video called "The (bad placed here word lol) Song" for nothing. Perhaps this experience has already been ruined for them and they only keep their mods up on nexus out of respect for some or with hopes of regaining the feeling that they once had for this community.

 

As I stated at the beginning of this long wall of text... "it comes down to this"... to be a decent human-being and to understand what it means to be one.

 

If anyone doesn't understand that (and the majority of what I have wrote) they have a lot to learn about this very short life that we are living. Not everyone who creates a mod views them as "trading cards".

 

Sure, modding is about having fun and sharing that fun with other people... TO YOU, that is what modding is =) ... and mostly to me = )... but that doesn't mean that our, my, or our thoughts and feelings allow us to take something that we didn't create and to do what we wish with it. Mods may be pass-times and ways to not be bored for some but for others they are life saving acts of creativity or monuments of personal growth.

 

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after typing this all out there was a comment that had been written in between and I liked what was said as it helped to define the point even further

 

Anonymous Poster: "All I’m saying is...I do not think Leonardo da Vinci has a right to say that no alterations of the Mona Lisa can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to."

 

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Me: I like the Mono Lisa statement. You're right and people DO modify the Mono Lisa all of the time. However, they aren't allowed to simply paint over the original copy. They have to either recreate it from scratch and make adjustments as they go or use a photocopy of some sorts, but still, it's not the original version... not to mention that Leo has been long dead and his emotional attachments to his work are probably justifiably assumed to no longer be what they once were... however, we still do everything that we can to protect and honor the original... what a sexy lady she is lol

 

Goodnight.

Edited June 17, 2016 by GamerPoets

[Xeneonic]

In response to post #39464010. #39464265, #39466000 are all replies on the same post.

MokChaoticran wrote: Thanks for this, Dark0ne, Robin, whichever you'd prefer. Watching people argue, the countless rant videos, the nonstop flood of e-mails in my inbox for reporting and calling out stolen content on Bethesda.net, watching big time mod authors lock their doors and pull their work out of the public market - It's been a painful couple of weeks and I really appreciate some kind of official word on this, and as far as the modding community goes, you're as official as it gets.

I overall agree with your stance, and it is the most educated, realistic and moral of the ones I've seen put forward. If you read this, I'd like to ask, what is your opinion on the prospect of "Mod-DRM" and the likes, as it has been discussed among mod authors lately?

Dark0ne wrote: I honestly see no problem with inserting hidden scripts in to mods, that only trigger if the mod is used on a console, that informs users that the mod has been stolen and uploaded to Bethesda.net without permission (and to perhaps please report the mod).

I'm obviously not in favour of any form of DRM that would ultimately damage a console player, his console or his save game.

yevvie wrote: That would be amazing thing, especially informing console users that the stolen mod can damage their console, saves, and everything they have on there, since it wasn't tested with consoles at all.

I'd love to see someone from nexus releasing such script so we could add it to our mods, since for many of us something like this is way too complex to create.

Hopefully this idea will stay in minds of modders here, as it's really good way of fixing things.

I have to agree with Dark0ne's latter sentence. Most people playing on consoles and browsing beth.net are people that want to play with mods with no strings attached. Not everyone researches into these developments the past few weeks, they come home from a hard day at work, see a new popular mod and want to try it out.

Getting to hear at that time that the mod won't work is fine, but suddenly having your game broken or saves gone is a few steps too far, as it would be punishment to someone that doesn't even know it was stolen or anything like that. You'd be punishing the wrong group of people with that.

To the contrary, I'm sure some trolls would upload some mods to beth.net that would delete saves etc just to annoy the community for the hell of it.

Requiring SKSE or a script that warns users that it will not work/is stolen should be more than enough.

[phantompally76]

I don't disagree with much of your message (at least not enough to even bother mentioning), but I would like to point out that if anyone else had posted this on this site, it would have been deleted and the poster's account would have most likely been banned, regardless of the righteousness of their message.

 

You MAY want to clean this up before the mainstream gets ahold of it. And I say that with the best intentions.

 

 

[wolfsangeleyes]

Very well written article Robin. I liked what you said and you said it well.

 

I don't play on console, nor do I have Fallout so I was a bit confused in the beginning by everything I read here on the forum (and appalled to be honest by some people's responses and their suggestions on how to deal with these thieves)

Shocking to realise how laid back Bethesda is in this matter and how they intend to 'deal' with mod theft. That is all the more reason why I am glad to be part of this community. At least here, your voice is heard.

 

I am really happy for console gamers that they are finally able to mod their game. But not when it is done by resorting to theft.

[R0NlN]

I hesitate to post this (since most people aren't very open to criticism, no matter how constructive-- that's just human nature), but in the end I feel compelled to do so. That was a painful read, which means it probably didn't accomplish what you wanted it to.

 

I know you have some important points to make, but there's a lot of brush to clear to find them. Please, in the future, edit before you publish. Provide an introduction that previews your main points, develop those points in the body, and finish with a summary. Go through each line (or at least each paragraph) and ask yourself, "Does this need to be here? Can it be shortened or reworded, to make the point more concisely?"

 

Try saying in a few words what you've said here in 5,127. You have to grab your readers' attention, get your message across, and wrap it up as quickly as the subject allows.

 

Sorry for the unsolicited advice. I only want to help you write articles that will impact your audience.

[Izaki131]

The author could've done without the long SJW-esque rant. Maybe you should give modding ON a console a try if you like them so much.

[LeanWolf]

Excellent article. Pity few people who should actually read it will, due to its length, but it does cover the bases.

 

I would only argue two points:

1. They did not give us "all the tools needed to survive", the CK allows us to do alot but much has been accomplished through community-made tools that they would not provide.

 

2. I doubt very much that they were taken by surprise by the mod thefts, they do nothing but benefit from them so why would they care? It's not like mod authors are software companies going to sue them. They see mods as creations made by their tools for their games, and they see mods made by other tools as "hacks", which shows how much they care about their authors' rights; this despite the fact that user-made weapons and armours are some of the most professional and popular mods available.