Big changes for the Nexus Mod Manager and the introduction of Tannin42, our new head of NMM development

[CharmicsMods]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380 is also a reply to the same post.

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46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

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Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

[CharmicsMods]

In response to post #43223160. #43223235, #43225810, #43226065, #43226570, #43226580, #43226675, #43226930, #43227145 are all replies on the same post.

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ContessaR wrote: Simple question: Will you be keeping MO's virtual installation/file system? That's all I want. Don't care what the name on the Mod Tool is as long as it has that.

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JDM90 wrote: This

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TehPikachuHat wrote: Thirded.

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mfeile1974 wrote: Fourth....main reason I won't touch NMM is because I don't want my install folder touched

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rcv wrote: me 5

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The Vampire Dante wrote: @ mfeile1974

NMM has been using virtual installs for a while now.

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bla08 wrote: NMM already offers a type of virtual installation system.

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Arthmoor wrote: Personally I would hope not, or that it would be moved into an extension for those people who want that.

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TehPikachuHat wrote: NMM virtualization system uses hardlinks, which clutter up your install folder. MO does it better.

The VFS of MO is second to none, let's hope the new NMM uses that. I may sound like a bit of a fanboy, but after grappling with a variety of virtual file systems, I just haven't found anything quite as nice as MO's.

[moriador]

In response to post #43210430. #43215310, #43215490, #43215920, #43216655, #43217565, #43217935, #43218210, #43222660, #43225585, #43227190 are all replies on the same post.

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jim_uk wrote: Please can we get a mode for us old stick in the muds who still do everything manually and only want something to enable mods and change the load order? I'm still using 0.52.3.

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kingtobbe wrote: This works perfectly for that. It doesn't disable mods beyond unchecking the esp though. Of course if it did, it wouldn't be simple anymore :)

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/13671/?

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vram1974 wrote: You're never too old to save time. If a veritable moron like myself can figure out mod managers then anybody can.

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jim_uk wrote: It's nothing to do with figuring them out, it's that I don't need all the other stuff, I've been installing mods since 2002, I know what I'm doing and prefer to do things myself.

@kingtobbe I used something similar for FO4, it saved me from upgrading and risking breaking my older games.

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Arthmoor wrote: I'm with jim_uk on this one. If I were to be convinced to use this new NMM, I'd want it to be straightforward and without all the file system virtualization stuff. And it would need to be at least as robust about handling the Data folder as Wrye Bash is now.

Oh, and please, for the love of Talos, leave the BSA unpacking to other tools where it belongs!

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HadToRegister wrote: So if you're still using 0.52.3 then just continue using it then, problem solved, as you're not even using NMM for anything except to enable/disable mods and change the load order.
You're not even using it to it's fullest potential, so you'll be able to use that version forever.

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jim_uk wrote: It won't work for newer titles, this months Skyrim Shiny Edition being one of them.

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PirateZ86 wrote: @jim_uk: Please don't listen or reply to morons who have no common sense.

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HadToRegister wrote:

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PirateZ86 9 kudos 557 posts
@jim_uk: Please don't listen or reply to morons who have no common sense.

Wow, so you go straight to the ad hominems because someone has a different opinion than you?

Jesus christ dude, chill out.

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ShalabiRogue wrote: @arthmoor This could be a dumb (or too long to answer) question but what do you have against file virtualization? For me the benefits are massive; quick and easy profiling, clean skyrim folder, quick and easy file priority, and MO lets me use Wrye Bash for bash patches and such even between profiles. I can't even think of a negative point.

Without MO I couldn't have both Enderal and Skyrim installed right now and quickly choose which one I want to play.

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Arthmoor wrote: My main objection is having an intermediate layer between my OS and my game that is under the control of neither one and prone to bugs because neither one has been subjected to the appropriate levels of QA.

Plus I just don't see the point considering Wrye Bash has not had issues with "dirty data folders" since the BAIN installers module was perfected. Proven technology that gives you the kind of control MO users want without injecting code into the task to accomplish it.

IMO if you want something sufficient to separate Enderal from Skyrim you should be prepared to sacrifice the extra install space for it. Drive storage is cheap, and nothing beats a hard separation when it comes to guaranteeing one can't contaminate the other.

Also, I don't need to jump through hoops for each tool I want to use in order to get the virtual file system to notice it. Which ironically includes not having to faff about with that to make Wrye Bash work to do bashed patches with :P

Yes, exactly.

There doesn't seem to be much point in using a file virtualization system if the CK can't see it.

[CharmicsMods]

In response to post #43210430. #43215310, #43215490, #43215920, #43216655, #43217565, #43217935, #43218210, #43222660, #43225585, #43227190, #43227900 are all replies on the same post.

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jim_uk wrote: Please can we get a mode for us old stick in the muds who still do everything manually and only want something to enable mods and change the load order? I'm still using 0.52.3.

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kingtobbe wrote: This works perfectly for that. It doesn't disable mods beyond unchecking the esp though. Of course if it did, it wouldn't be simple anymore :)

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/13671/?

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vram1974 wrote: You're never too old to save time. If a veritable moron like myself can figure out mod managers then anybody can.

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jim_uk wrote: It's nothing to do with figuring them out, it's that I don't need all the other stuff, I've been installing mods since 2002, I know what I'm doing and prefer to do things myself.

@kingtobbe I used something similar for FO4, it saved me from upgrading and risking breaking my older games.

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Arthmoor wrote: I'm with jim_uk on this one. If I were to be convinced to use this new NMM, I'd want it to be straightforward and without all the file system virtualization stuff. And it would need to be at least as robust about handling the Data folder as Wrye Bash is now.

Oh, and please, for the love of Talos, leave the BSA unpacking to other tools where it belongs!

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HadToRegister wrote: So if you're still using 0.52.3 then just continue using it then, problem solved, as you're not even using NMM for anything except to enable/disable mods and change the load order.
You're not even using it to it's fullest potential, so you'll be able to use that version forever.

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jim_uk wrote: It won't work for newer titles, this months Skyrim Shiny Edition being one of them.

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PirateZ86 wrote: @jim_uk: Please don't listen or reply to morons who have no common sense.

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HadToRegister wrote:

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PirateZ86 9 kudos 557 posts
@jim_uk: Please don't listen or reply to morons who have no common sense.

Wow, so you go straight to the ad hominems because someone has a different opinion than you?

Jesus christ dude, chill out.

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ShalabiRogue wrote: @arthmoor This could be a dumb (or too long to answer) question but what do you have against file virtualization? For me the benefits are massive; quick and easy profiling, clean skyrim folder, quick and easy file priority, and MO lets me use Wrye Bash for bash patches and such even between profiles. I can't even think of a negative point.

Without MO I couldn't have both Enderal and Skyrim installed right now and quickly choose which one I want to play.

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Arthmoor wrote: My main objection is having an intermediate layer between my OS and my game that is under the control of neither one and prone to bugs because neither one has been subjected to the appropriate levels of QA.

Plus I just don't see the point considering Wrye Bash has not had issues with "dirty data folders" since the BAIN installers module was perfected. Proven technology that gives you the kind of control MO users want without injecting code into the task to accomplish it.

IMO if you want something sufficient to separate Enderal from Skyrim you should be prepared to sacrifice the extra install space for it. Drive storage is cheap, and nothing beats a hard separation when it comes to guaranteeing one can't contaminate the other.

Also, I don't need to jump through hoops for each tool I want to use in order to get the virtual file system to notice it. Which ironically includes not having to faff about with that to make Wrye Bash work to do bashed patches with :P

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moriador wrote: Yes, exactly.

There doesn't seem to be much point in using a file virtualization system if the CK can't see it.

While I can sympathize with this position, I think anybody who has taken the 5 minutes it takes to install and learn MO will soon understand its profound advantages and near-complete lack of disadvantages, 100% of the time. As someone who very much likes doing things myself, MO is a tool that lets me do things myself better. But, to each their own. Edited October 14, 2016 by ColdHarmonics

[Mebantiza]

So will it be safe to say, this 'new' MM have will none of the features of NMM, and all the features of MO. IoW, just a reskinned and renamed MO? As bad as NMM 6x has been, there are things about NMM that make people want to use it, well, the pre- 6x versions anyhow. How is forcing MO and its structure on everyone, even those that don't really want it, a benefit?

 

I use NMM 56.1, and do NOT require virtual installs. Its a feature, for some, but not a REQUIRED one, and I dont want it forced on me. 56.1 is old, crashes constantly, and is not all that stable tbh. But its still far preferable to anything NMM 6x, and have no need to have MO forced upon me. Not going to argue which one is 'superior', that is pointless. NMM is straight-forward enough to do what it has to, and did it well enough, well at least untill they tried to steal some of MO thunder. Then it went to complete and utter $yht. Up until that point, it wasn't perfect, but it did the job. NMM 6x added a needless feature that no one asked for, and never worked properly. Had NMM retained its pre-VM structure and improved that, things would likely be fine with it even now.

 

So now, the 'solution' it seems, is make everyone use MO whether they like it or not...

Edited October 14, 2016 by Mebantiza

[Cavik]

So I'm gonna call this a win. Sure I'll have to reinstall all the FO4 mods I use but I've had to deal with worse.

[Deleted23213994User]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380, #43227780 are all replies on the same post.

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46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

  Quote

Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

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ColdHarmonics wrote: LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

No, TES5Edit does not belong in a mod manager. But the fact that you can already set it as a shortcut in your MO toolbar already makes it as close as possible to TES5Edit being implemented into MO. LOOT on the other hand does work perfectly fine in MO. And it's good that it was implemented for quick sorting after installing mods. But as a rule of thumb, never fully rely on LOOT to sort your plugins in the perfect order because it never will. So use it at your will and then use your own judgement for the rest.

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380, #43227780, #43228265 are all replies on the same post.

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46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

  Quote

Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

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ColdHarmonics wrote: LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

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endgameaddiction wrote: No, TES5Edit does not belong in a mod manager. But the fact that you can already set it as a shortcut in your MO toolbar already makes it as close as possible to TES5Edit being implemented into MO. LOOT on the other hand does work perfectly fine in MO. And it's good that it was implemented for quick sorting after installing mods. But as a rule of thumb, never fully rely on LOOT to sort your plugins in the perfect order because it never will. So use it at your will and then use your own judgement for the rest.

No

Once you start incorporating other programs into the main program you limit how each thing can be upgraded.

Having grown up in the "all-in-one" stereo console fad, AND the "Separate component" non-console fad, it was the most expensive to buy a separate component system, but in the long run, the cheapest to replace ONE component, rather than having to replacing the entire system, when ONE thing broke.

Just like TVs today, that have DVD and/or VCR players built in.

When one of those Breaks, you're stuck with either

1. A TV that can play DVDs but not Video tapes
2. A TV that can play Video tapes but not DVDs
3. A TV that can play DVD & Video tapes, but you can't watch because the TV is broken
4. A TV that can play DVDs, but you can't watch, because the TV is broken
5. A TV that can play videos, but you can't watch because the TV is broken

Ultimately you're forced to replace THE ENTIRE THING, rather than just swap out ONE PIECE of the set-up.

Yea, that was a long way around talking about not incorporating everything into one program, but I felt I should give an example

[SpiritWolf448]

@tannin42 @Dark0ne

 

Out of curiousity, how high is the likelyhood of a first version of this "new" mod manager being released before the year is over?

[tase]

I'll never use NMM if it doesn't match or beat the modularity and cleanliness of MO.

 

Having mod managers just shove files into the Data directory willy-nilly is not a sustainable approach when people have 100 mods that interact with each-other. People say NMM uses some kind of virtualization. Looks more like symlinks.

 

NMM is fine if you just want whats essentially a downloader + unpacker and just download 5 mods and never touch it again.

 

MO is the top when you want to actually tweak files, create overrides, update mods without having to reinstall everything, try out mods without tainting your Data folder, debug problems, since it's so easy to disable a mod and know exactly what is overriding what.

 

Tannin says "we won't be missing MO for long", but has he seen NMM? At least he doesn't have to work with NMM, since they're starting from scratch, but he has to do everything and work with the people who did NMM. Not going to be easy.

 

Anyway, grats on Tannin on getting a job to work on a mod manager. He did good work on MO and it's nice to see someone be able to make a job out of it. And I hope the people that worked on NMM are ready to move onto the next level.