Big changes for the Nexus Mod Manager and the introduction of Tannin42, our new head of NMM development

[RoyBatterian]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380, #43227780, #43228265, #43228300 are all replies on the same post.

46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

ColdHarmonics wrote: LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

endgameaddiction wrote: No, TES5Edit does not belong in a mod manager. But the fact that you can already set it as a shortcut in your MO toolbar already makes it as close as possible to TES5Edit being implemented into MO. LOOT on the other hand does work perfectly fine in MO. And it's good that it was implemented for quick sorting after installing mods. But as a rule of thumb, never fully rely on LOOT to sort your plugins in the perfect order because it never will. So use it at your will and then use your own judgement for the rest.

HadToRegister wrote: No

Once you start incorporating other programs into the main program you limit how each thing can be upgraded.

Having grown up in the "all-in-one" stereo console fad, AND the "Separate component" non-console fad, it was the most expensive to buy a separate component system, but in the long run, the cheapest to replace ONE component, rather than having to replacing the entire system, when ONE thing broke.

Just like TVs today, that have DVD and/or VCR players built in.

When one of those Breaks, you're stuck with either

1. A TV that can play DVDs but not Video tapes
2. A TV that can play Video tapes but not DVDs
3. A TV that can play DVD & Video tapes, but you can't watch because the TV is broken
4. A TV that can play DVDs, but you can't watch, because the TV is broken
5. A TV that can play videos, but you can't watch because the TV is broken

Ultimately you're forced to replace THE ENTIRE THING, rather than just swap out ONE PIECE of the set-up.

Yea, that was a long way around talking about not incorporating everything into one program, but I felt I should give an example

Please make things like LOOT optional modules too. Don't need or want it.

[ehf111]

Under the heading of "the only thing constant in life is change" both Tannin42 and the announcement of a new, higher functioning MM are most welcome. The extreme lengths to which the dev team has gone to keep NMM functional has been obvious for some time ... a big thank-you to them.

 

And now it's time to move on ... this is the right decision and to me is fantastic news.

 

 

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #43228135.

Mebantiza wrote: So will it be safe to say, this 'new' MM have will none of the features of NMM, and all the features of MO. IoW, just a reskinned and renamed MO? As bad as NMM 6x has been, there are things about NMM that make people want to use it, well, the pre- 6x versions anyhow. How is forcing MO and its structure on everyone, even those that don't really want it, a benefit?

I use NMM 56.1, and do NOT require virtual installs. Its a feature, for some, but not a REQUIRED one, and I dont want it forced on me. 56.1 is old, crashes constantly, and is not all that stable tbh. But its still far preferable to anything NMM 6x, and have no need to have MO forced upon me. Not going to argue which one is 'superior', that is pointless. NMM is straight-forward enough to do what it has to, and did it well enough, well at least untill they tried to steal some of MO thunder. Then it went to complete and utter $yht. Up until that point, it wasn't perfect, but it did the job. NMM 6x added a needless feature that no one asked for, and never worked properly. Had NMM retained its pre-VM structure and improved that, things would likely be fine with it even now.

So now, the 'solution' it seems, is make everyone use MO whether they like it or not...

Having used both, I like MO, and I also like NMM, but only pre 0.62 NMM, as 0.62 and above just acted like malware and destroyed most of our mod lists

NOWHERE in this thread has it been said that the new NMM will have NONE of the features of NMM and/or ALL of the features of MO.

NOWHERE has the subject of "Forcing MO on everyone" even been discussed.

If you use NMM 56.1 (For whatever hipster anti-something reason), then keep using it, but stop complaining about something that you're not only NOT going to use, but are also so misinformed about, that you were unable to make even one factual statement about the plans for NMM/MO for the future. Edited October 14, 2016 by HadToRegister

[xyon71]

In response to post #43228135. #43228440 is also a reply to the same post.

Mebantiza wrote: So will it be safe to say, this 'new' MM have will none of the features of NMM, and all the features of MO. IoW, just a reskinned and renamed MO? As bad as NMM 6x has been, there are things about NMM that make people want to use it, well, the pre- 6x versions anyhow. How is forcing MO and its structure on everyone, even those that don't really want it, a benefit?

I use NMM 56.1, and do NOT require virtual installs. Its a feature, for some, but not a REQUIRED one, and I dont want it forced on me. 56.1 is old, crashes constantly, and is not all that stable tbh. But its still far preferable to anything NMM 6x, and have no need to have MO forced upon me. Not going to argue which one is 'superior', that is pointless. NMM is straight-forward enough to do what it has to, and did it well enough, well at least untill they tried to steal some of MO thunder. Then it went to complete and utter $yht. Up until that point, it wasn't perfect, but it did the job. NMM 6x added a needless feature that no one asked for, and never worked properly. Had NMM retained its pre-VM structure and improved that, things would likely be fine with it even now.

So now, the 'solution' it seems, is make everyone use MO whether they like it or not...

HadToRegister wrote: Having used both, I like MO, and I also like NMM, but only pre 0.62 NMM, as 0.62 and above just acted like malware and destroyed most of our mod lists

NOWHERE in this thread has it been said that the new NMM will have NONE of the features of NMM and/or ALL of the features of MO.

NOWHERE has the subject of "Forcing MO on everyone" even been discussed.

If you use NMM 56.1 (For whatever hipster anti-something reason), then keep using it, but stop complaining about something that you're not only NOT going to use, but are also so misinformed about, that you were unable to make even one factual statement about the plans for NMM/MO for the future.

Why go right to negativity??
I think it is very UNsafe to say it is just going to be a "re-branded MO"
It appears to me that they are wanting to produce a simple, yet powerful NEW tool for everyone to use with varying degrees of complexity based on need.
I didn't read anywhere that they are "forcing" anything, I read that they are taking all of the feedback from BOTH tools to incorporate the best features into 1 "best" tool.
I switched from NMM to MO 2 years ago, and found it simply wonderful to be able to try out different mods in different orders without breaking my base game.
I will admit there was a learning curve, but not too steep, and I am far from an advanced modder.
I for 1 am excited to see what these talented minds can come up with.
For whatever this or that, I say all of them are in it because they want to give people the best modding experience possible, so lets give them a chance before we jump on our band-wagons and shoot harpoons because we "think" we already know what they are going to do...

[xyon71]

In response to post #43228430.

ehf111 wrote: Under the heading of "the only thing constant in life is change" both Tannin42 and the announcement of a new, higher functioning MM are most welcome. The extreme lengths to which the dev team has gone to keep NMM functional has been obvious for some time ... a big thank-you to them.

And now it's time to move on ... this is the right decision and to me is fantastic news.

+1... I couldn't agree more

[archerarcher]

In response to post #43228135. #43228440, #43228710 are all replies on the same post.

Mebantiza wrote: So will it be safe to say, this 'new' MM have will none of the features of NMM, and all the features of MO. IoW, just a reskinned and renamed MO? As bad as NMM 6x has been, there are things about NMM that make people want to use it, well, the pre- 6x versions anyhow. How is forcing MO and its structure on everyone, even those that don't really want it, a benefit?

I use NMM 56.1, and do NOT require virtual installs. Its a feature, for some, but not a REQUIRED one, and I dont want it forced on me. 56.1 is old, crashes constantly, and is not all that stable tbh. But its still far preferable to anything NMM 6x, and have no need to have MO forced upon me. Not going to argue which one is 'superior', that is pointless. NMM is straight-forward enough to do what it has to, and did it well enough, well at least untill they tried to steal some of MO thunder. Then it went to complete and utter $yht. Up until that point, it wasn't perfect, but it did the job. NMM 6x added a needless feature that no one asked for, and never worked properly. Had NMM retained its pre-VM structure and improved that, things would likely be fine with it even now.

So now, the 'solution' it seems, is make everyone use MO whether they like it or not...

HadToRegister wrote: Having used both, I like MO, and I also like NMM, but only pre 0.62 NMM, as 0.62 and above just acted like malware and destroyed most of our mod lists

NOWHERE in this thread has it been said that the new NMM will have NONE of the features of NMM and/or ALL of the features of MO.

NOWHERE has the subject of "Forcing MO on everyone" even been discussed.

If you use NMM 56.1 (For whatever hipster anti-something reason), then keep using it, but stop complaining about something that you're not only NOT going to use, but are also so misinformed about, that you were unable to make even one factual statement about the plans for NMM/MO for the future.

xyon71 wrote: Why go right to negativity??
I think it is very UNsafe to say it is just going to be a "re-branded MO"
It appears to me that they are wanting to produce a simple, yet powerful NEW tool for everyone to use with varying degrees of complexity based on need.
I didn't read anywhere that they are "forcing" anything, I read that they are taking all of the feedback from BOTH tools to incorporate the best features into 1 "best" tool.
I switched from NMM to MO 2 years ago, and found it simply wonderful to be able to try out different mods in different orders without breaking my base game.
I will admit there was a learning curve, but not too steep, and I am far from an advanced modder.
I for 1 am excited to see what these talented minds can come up with.
For whatever this or that, I say all of them are in it because they want to give people the best modding experience possible, so lets give them a chance before we jump on our band-wagons and shoot harpoons because we "think" we already know what they are going to do...

Same here. In times where disk space is cheaper than fuel I think this virtual install feature is completely obsolete. I don't like it and I don't like the problems it makes with certain mod installations.
I use NMM 56.1 for Skyrim too, it's very stable to me, no problems at all, really. Okay, I track all my (700~) mods and over the years my documentation has grown into a complex website but I know exactly what to overwrite and what not and I know where my files are and I don't care about some gigabytes disk space more or less for my favorite game that I am playing/ modding since Nov 2011.

So what should a future mod mager be like?

1. Manage mod files
That's the absolute priority. Everey feature that affects this should be removed or be avoided.

2. Simple to use, simple to manage
No need for virtual installs, no installation of mods directly by clicking on a button on a website. I need control! Everyone needs control. Is there anybody out there who installs mods via website button? I inspect EVERY file before I use a mod so you should too if you don't want to loose track of your installment.

That's what I want from a mod manager and that's why I use NMM 56.1 and not MO

[archerarcher]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380, #43227780, #43228265, #43228300, #43228380, #43228880 are all replies on the same post.

46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

ColdHarmonics wrote: LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

endgameaddiction wrote: No, TES5Edit does not belong in a mod manager. But the fact that you can already set it as a shortcut in your MO toolbar already makes it as close as possible to TES5Edit being implemented into MO. LOOT on the other hand does work perfectly fine in MO. And it's good that it was implemented for quick sorting after installing mods. But as a rule of thumb, never fully rely on LOOT to sort your plugins in the perfect order because it never will. So use it at your will and then use your own judgement for the rest.

HadToRegister wrote: No

Once you start incorporating other programs into the main program you limit how each thing can be upgraded.

Having grown up in the "all-in-one" stereo console fad, AND the "Separate component" non-console fad, it was the most expensive to buy a separate component system, but in the long run, the cheapest to replace ONE component, rather than having to replacing the entire system, when ONE thing broke.

Just like TVs today, that have DVD and/or VCR players built in.

When one of those Breaks, you're stuck with either

1. A TV that can play DVDs but not Video tapes
2. A TV that can play Video tapes but not DVDs
3. A TV that can play DVD & Video tapes, but you can't watch because the TV is broken
4. A TV that can play DVDs, but you can't watch, because the TV is broken
5. A TV that can play videos, but you can't watch because the TV is broken

Ultimately you're forced to replace THE ENTIRE THING, rather than just swap out ONE PIECE of the set-up.

Yea, that was a long way around talking about not incorporating everything into one program, but I felt I should give an example

RoyBatterian wrote: Please make things like LOOT optional modules too. Don't need or want it.

xyon71 wrote: Well I personally believe it's silly to NOT use LOOT, but in MO if you didn't want to check your order, just don't hit the "sort" button.
In MO the "sort" is a paired down version of LOOT without tag downloads, or you can install the full LOOT and use it as an EXE from within MO.
I would hope it will be the same type of setup.

Where is the problem to use XEdit, Bash, Loot etc. as independent sofware? I don't understand people who want to have an all-in-one application. Thats Frankenstein who wants to create the most perfect thing and you know what happened.

I more and more get the suspicion that some people don't want to use their brain and instead of that are looking for the perfect softwae that does it for them... Edited October 14, 2016 by archerarcher

[xyon71]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380, #43227780, #43228265, #43228300, #43228380, #43228855 are all replies on the same post.

46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

ColdHarmonics wrote: LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

endgameaddiction wrote: No, TES5Edit does not belong in a mod manager. But the fact that you can already set it as a shortcut in your MO toolbar already makes it as close as possible to TES5Edit being implemented into MO. LOOT on the other hand does work perfectly fine in MO. And it's good that it was implemented for quick sorting after installing mods. But as a rule of thumb, never fully rely on LOOT to sort your plugins in the perfect order because it never will. So use it at your will and then use your own judgement for the rest.

HadToRegister wrote: No

Once you start incorporating other programs into the main program you limit how each thing can be upgraded.

Having grown up in the "all-in-one" stereo console fad, AND the "Separate component" non-console fad, it was the most expensive to buy a separate component system, but in the long run, the cheapest to replace ONE component, rather than having to replacing the entire system, when ONE thing broke.

Just like TVs today, that have DVD and/or VCR players built in.

When one of those Breaks, you're stuck with either

1. A TV that can play DVDs but not Video tapes
2. A TV that can play Video tapes but not DVDs
3. A TV that can play DVD & Video tapes, but you can't watch because the TV is broken
4. A TV that can play DVDs, but you can't watch, because the TV is broken
5. A TV that can play videos, but you can't watch because the TV is broken

Ultimately you're forced to replace THE ENTIRE THING, rather than just swap out ONE PIECE of the set-up.

Yea, that was a long way around talking about not incorporating everything into one program, but I felt I should give an example

RoyBatterian wrote: Please make things like LOOT optional modules too. Don't need or want it.

archerarcher wrote: Where is the problem to use XEdit, Bash, Loot etc. as independent sofware? I don't understand people who want to have an all-in-one application. Thats Frankenstein who wants to create the most perfect thing and you know what happened.

I more and more get the suspicion that some people don't want to use their brain and instead of that are looking for the perfect softwae that does it for them...

Well I personally believe it's silly to NOT use LOOT, but in MO if you didn't want to check your order, just don't hit the "sort" button.
In MO the "sort" is a paired down version of LOOT without tag downloads, or you can install the full LOOT and use it as an shortcut from within MO.
I would hope it will be the same type of setup. Edited October 14, 2016 by xyon71

[moriador]

In response to post #43223160. #43223235, #43225810, #43226065, #43226570, #43226580, #43226675, #43226930, #43227145, #43227835 are all replies on the same post.

ContessaR wrote: Simple question: Will you be keeping MO's virtual installation/file system? That's all I want. Don't care what the name on the Mod Tool is as long as it has that.

JDM90 wrote: This

TehPikachuHat wrote: Thirded.

mfeile1974 wrote: Fourth....main reason I won't touch NMM is because I don't want my install folder touched

rcv wrote: me 5

The Vampire Dante wrote: @ mfeile1974

NMM has been using virtual installs for a while now.

bla08 wrote: NMM already offers a type of virtual installation system.

Arthmoor wrote: Personally I would hope not, or that it would be moved into an extension for those people who want that.

TehPikachuHat wrote: NMM virtualization system uses hardlinks, which clutter up your install folder. MO does it better.

ColdHarmonics wrote: The VFS of MO is second to none, let's hope the new NMM uses that. I may sound like a bit of a fanboy, but after grappling with a variety of virtual file systems, I just haven't found anything quite as nice as MO's.

So, NMM uses "a type of virtualization system" already?

I don't know whether it does or not, or whether it's an option you have to enable in NMM.

All I *do* know is that when I install a mod with NMM: its assets are available when I load the CK to mod and when I load a game to play; moreover, I can easily locate those assets in my data folder, should I need to unpack/change/adjust/alter/move/rename/overwrite or delete them.

Last I checked, this was not the case with MO, since it was impossible to load a game without starting MO. And MO's file virtualization wasn't recognized by the CK.

With MO, if a mod had a single and simple problem, such as missing mipmaps for a few textures or an incorrect file path or even a single messed up mesh, it was not clear to me how to fix it. Whereas right now, I just fix them the straightforward and obvious way.

I have no idea if that's the case now -- or whether I'm simply totally wrong about MO -- because the description of the implementation was too confusing for me to really grasp fully. Forum threads and tutorials didn't help.

At the moment, with NMM, if I find that my data folder has unwanted stuff in it, I delete that stuff or manually shove it into a different folder. If I want a completely "clean" data folder, I unpack a backup archive of a vanilla install. I'm not sure what could be simpler than that.

Ultimately, for me, nothing beats actually looking at mod archives to see what's in them (and where) before installing anything into my data folder. I actually read the readme's. :D Edited October 14, 2016 by moriador

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #43222670. #43227380, #43227780, #43228265, #43228300, #43228380, #43228855, #43228880 are all replies on the same post.

46GAPA wrote: I would like to see LOOT and Tes5edit incorporated in NMM.
That said NMM has been a God send for me as far as simplifing the download and install process.

Arthmoor wrote: No. Just no. Let's not start pushing to absorb everything into some kind of monolithic beast.

ColdHarmonics wrote: LOOT is already implemented very well into MO. Tes5Edit doesn't really belong IMO, though.

endgameaddiction wrote: No, TES5Edit does not belong in a mod manager. But the fact that you can already set it as a shortcut in your MO toolbar already makes it as close as possible to TES5Edit being implemented into MO. LOOT on the other hand does work perfectly fine in MO. And it's good that it was implemented for quick sorting after installing mods. But as a rule of thumb, never fully rely on LOOT to sort your plugins in the perfect order because it never will. So use it at your will and then use your own judgement for the rest.

HadToRegister wrote: No

Once you start incorporating other programs into the main program you limit how each thing can be upgraded.

Having grown up in the "all-in-one" stereo console fad, AND the "Separate component" non-console fad, it was the most expensive to buy a separate component system, but in the long run, the cheapest to replace ONE component, rather than having to replacing the entire system, when ONE thing broke.

Just like TVs today, that have DVD and/or VCR players built in.

When one of those Breaks, you're stuck with either

1. A TV that can play DVDs but not Video tapes
2. A TV that can play Video tapes but not DVDs
3. A TV that can play DVD & Video tapes, but you can't watch because the TV is broken
4. A TV that can play DVDs, but you can't watch, because the TV is broken
5. A TV that can play videos, but you can't watch because the TV is broken

Ultimately you're forced to replace THE ENTIRE THING, rather than just swap out ONE PIECE of the set-up.

Yea, that was a long way around talking about not incorporating everything into one program, but I felt I should give an example

RoyBatterian wrote: Please make things like LOOT optional modules too. Don't need or want it.

archerarcher wrote: Where is the problem to use XEdit, Bash, Loot etc. as independent sofware? I don't understand people who want to have an all-in-one application. Thats Frankenstein who wants to create the most perfect thing and you know what happened.

I more and more get the suspicion that some people don't want to use their brain and instead of that are looking for the perfect softwae that does it for them...

xyon71 wrote: Well I personally believe it's silly to NOT use LOOT, but in MO if you didn't want to check your order, just don't hit the "sort" button.
In MO the "sort" is a paired down version of LOOT without tag downloads, or you can install the full LOOT and use it as an shortcut from within MO.
I would hope it will be the same type of setup.

RoyBatterian
Please make things like LOOT optional modules too. Don't need or want it.

I have to agree here.
I really haven't seen LOOT actually do anything worthwhile (for MY load order) for FO4 and it has even changed my load order to something I would never do, by putting mods above/below other mods that they shouldn't be above/below.
At the very most, I use LOOT (With FO4), to add Meta-Tags to some mods to ensure that some mods load after others, to basically avoid much of the tedious rearranging of the load order if I download a new mod.