An update on Vortex development

[RDubon]

In response to post #54983273.

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azraal wrote: Honestly, I will reserve my judgement for when I have the actual program in my hands...
But unless I misunderstood, it checks at least one of my requirements:

Easily return to a clean state without having to click an hundred time. I don't really care about the fact I won't have a clean folder or not in any other time. The idea is if I mess up I can go back to a pristine install without delete/redownload.

As for my second, the most important to me and the reason I use MO rather than nmm is the ease to change the load order for the mods ressources. Want an older mod to take precedence over the other? You don't have to uninstall both and reinstall giving hell to your files in the process.... You just drag the mod up or down and the stuff just works it's magic the next time you launch it.
But in the end, setting your order and clicking a "generate folder" button would be a good middle ground. Because if each time we move a mod we have to wait for the whole things to be re-created it will be hell unless it's really fast even with a large number of mod.

Those are my important points for a mod manager.

As for the rest in all honesty, it really come down to testing the program itself. NMM took time to get used to, as did MO, and as will vortex.

That said, for those who don't want vortex, le presidente and a small team are still working on MO and a release will happen soonish if the discord is to be believed...
https://github.com/LePresidente/modorganizer (hope no one will mind I put the link here)

So it's not like there is a reason to fight over the features anyway. Well as long as nexusmods keep the api to their site open, there is another option.

Mod order installation is surely very important for many folks, worst case i personally can live without the virtualization system but not been able to easily change the load order for mods resources will surely discourage some of us from migrating to vortex.

[ReaperTai]

In response to post #54983273. #54992608 is also a reply to the same post.

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azraal wrote: Honestly, I will reserve my judgement for when I have the actual program in my hands...
But unless I misunderstood, it checks at least one of my requirements:

Easily return to a clean state without having to click an hundred time. I don't really care about the fact I won't have a clean folder or not in any other time. The idea is if I mess up I can go back to a pristine install without delete/redownload.

As for my second, the most important to me and the reason I use MO rather than nmm is the ease to change the load order for the mods ressources. Want an older mod to take precedence over the other? You don't have to uninstall both and reinstall giving hell to your files in the process.... You just drag the mod up or down and the stuff just works it's magic the next time you launch it.
But in the end, setting your order and clicking a "generate folder" button would be a good middle ground. Because if each time we move a mod we have to wait for the whole things to be re-created it will be hell unless it's really fast even with a large number of mod.

Those are my important points for a mod manager.

As for the rest in all honesty, it really come down to testing the program itself. NMM took time to get used to, as did MO, and as will vortex.

That said, for those who don't want vortex, le presidente and a small team are still working on MO and a release will happen soonish if the discord is to be believed...
https://github.com/LePresidente/modorganizer (hope no one will mind I put the link here)

So it's not like there is a reason to fight over the features anyway. Well as long as nexusmods keep the api to their site open, there is another option.

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RDubon wrote: Mod order installation is surely very important for many folks, worst case i personally can live without the virtualization system but not been able to easily change the load order for mods resources will surely discourage some of us from migrating to vortex.

There is a way to do both of those in NMM as well, I do it all the time. Just save a preset with everything off or use the tool tab to disable all mods for clean starts, and goto the plugin tab and drag the mod up or down to change load order.

Since they hired the guy who made MO it should have the best features of both.

[slvsaris]

In response to post #54959113. #54959528, #54959868, #54960743, #54961303, #54963573, #54963743, #54970663, #54982328 are all replies on the same post.

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Thandal wrote:

  On 11/4/2017 at 12:47 PM, ContessaR said:

<snip>

Or you could just not mess with the data folder at all and eliminate all possible issues regarding that. I'll never understand the resistance people have to MO type installations.

 

The author of MO is the lead developer of Vortex. He determined that the approach he used in MO was inherently flawed, (not sufficiently flexible) especially when the application has to work with many different game engines. Hence, Vortex!

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Ethreon wrote: A variety of users dislike MO users due to the smug superiority they deploy when discussing about mod managers. If clean data folder (what an idea..) is not needed, MO loses most of its edge.

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blckknight119 wrote: What do you mean by not needed? I can not think of any case in which virtualization isn't a better alternative if it's implemented correctly. If Vortex doesn't at least allow for this option, I'm probably going to stick with Mod Organizer.

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schadowman wrote: Yeah, after I heard that Vortex won't be using a virtual structure I was out. Keeping track of mods and changing/updating mods is just so much easier with virtualization. f*#@, I haven't redownloaded Skyrim ever since I started using MO. If Vortex can provide what MO did but just without the virtualization, then that'd be pretty great, but it'd take a lot more effort since you are modifying and replacing base game files, so you'd have to have some kind of system that would keep track of these changes and you'd also have to make it unmodifiable because it would break the whole system if you did. I mean, we really don't know anything but the basic stuff, so maybe Tannin has some kind of brilliant idea that we didn't think of.

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Dark0ne wrote: Please read up on what virtualization is. People are using MO's VFS interchangeably with virtualization as a whole and it's wrong.

Vortex will have virtualization, it just won't use MO's virtualization.

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Ethreon wrote: Not needed. Not required. Should I provide an image description? Not everyone needs it.

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nagothm wrote: The greatest feature difference between MO and NMM was that MO had a lot of troubleshooting features built into it. The ability to instantly find conflicting files etc were its biggest draw for me. (Especially in heavily modded setups with many loose files.) I haven't seen anything said about these comparison features on the new Vortex. Is there any information on whether those will be worked into Vortex or to what extent?
In any case, having a strong mod engine to use with many different games is exciting.

Thanks for the update as well.

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fireundubh wrote:

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The ability to instantly find conflicting files etc were its biggest draw for me.

The vast majority of the "conflicts" reported by MO are false positives, so much so that as a conflict management tool, MO is completely useless.

I posted the following in 2014 on a forum that Tannin frequented. He wasn't interested in fixing the problem.

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I have installed a number of location mods that appear to have conflicting assets.

- Heljarchen Farm
- Immersive College of Winterhold
- Morskom Estate
- Vjarkell Castle
- Windstad Mine

I extracted each BSA and generated MD5 hashes for every file in each directory.

I imported the results into a spreadsheet and confirmed that the totals below match Mod Organizer's results.

- Heljarchen Farm has 74 conflicts with the other mods.
- Immersive College of Winterhold has 49 conflicts with the other mods.
- Morskom Estate has 151 conflicts with the other mods.
- Vjarkell Castle has 2 conflicts with the other mods.
- Windstad Mine has 130 conflicts with the other mods.

Mod Organizer finds a total of 406 conflicts between these mods but most of these conflicts aren't meaningful.

When I removed the duplicates and filtered for actual conflicts (same file names, same file paths, different MD5 hashes), there was a dramatic difference in the number of conflicts.

- Heljarchen Farm has 6 actual conflicts with the other mods.
- Immersive College of Winterhold has 14 actual conflicts with the other mods.
- Morskom Estate has 16 actual conflicts with the other mods.
- Vjarkell Castle has 2 actual conflicts with the other mods.
- Windstad Mine has 10 actual conflicts with the other mods.

Only 48 (24 vs. 24) of the 406 conflicts reported by Mod Organizer are actual conflicts that could impact the player in the game.

Duplicates should be removed from conflict detection and the Conflicts tab.

I later wrote a script to test more mod combinations. The false positive rate averaged 90%. Only 10% of conflicts reported by MO are actual conflicts.

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b3ast1e wrote: "A variety of users dislike MO users due to the smug superiority they deploy. If clean data folder (what an idea..) is not needed, MO loses most of its edge."

Folks prefer MO to NMM for many reasons, the virtual data setup is not the only thing that makes it a better choice for them.

Some folks just prefer to work with what they know, others found MO unapproachable or seemingly complicated. And migrating to a new mod manager when you have a big setup isn't the most inviting experience.

People not liking other people is hardly a basis for judgement on the relative merits of one tool over another. Best we keep that sort of tribalist nonsense out of the discussion.

Maybe, but it was also mentioned that they were wanting to implement a plugin system for games. To me that means each game plugin could have the ability to handle things like this independently of the other games.

[ReaperTai]

Thanks for the update guys. Looking forward to the new program. I use NMM and never got around to trying MO but I hear it had some good features. Good call hiring Tannin to build it and sounds like Kit has a good grasp on things to be done with the mock ups already. Keep up the great work everybody. See ya in January. :thumbsup:

[Kedavix]

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223, #54947753, #54954958, #54955858, #54958068, #54976953, #54985023, #54987183, #54988083 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

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SharraShimada wrote:

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

Tannin made MO alone back in the days, when he had the time. And it was only 32 bit. Developing such a tool with full 64 bit support is a completely different thing.
Thats why MO2 never was what Tannin was expecting from it.

And now, it takes time, because its a team. Tanning cant work all alone, doing things like he wants them to be all by himself. Everything has to be first an idea, moves to a meeting, and later there will be a consensus. Such things take time... a lot of time.
And sometimes you try something, test it, and as a result, you throw it into the dumpster, because it wont work.

Software-development is time consuming as hell. Its not just coding. In fact, thats, what take the leas amount of the time. Its everying around the lines of code.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: Seeing what Tannin was able to do with MO makes me fully believe he is more then capable to easily create amazing mod manager. Its complexity or 64-bit doesn't matter so much - he is the man for the job.

What doesn't feel right is nexus itself. Being game modding site you would expect they would promote and share information about their main modding tool - Vortex.
Instead it was kept in secrecy for months. Check news how many times they shared any information about Vortex this year. Then check how many of those posts actually speak about Vortex. Most of them are just recruitment posts.
Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign) or development was facing issues leading to delay (no info about why everything is so delayed because nexus is all shiny and beautiful).

Ignoring what it feels like and back to what we do know is - it's over a year now that Tannin was recruited for this job. That's one year of people waiting for new mod manager or at least some information about its functionality and looks. A week ago new site design was announced and then they said we are finally getting an update about vortex this week.
This week they tell us we will get nothing (not even a screenshot because imagine if people say they don't like it, and everyone has to like it when its finished) but we have to wait for 2 months now to get something.

Do we get an update in 2 months that now we have to wait a year for an update?

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Dark0ne wrote:

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Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

When Tannin first released MO it was simply the VFS system with a text file on how to enable it. The MO you see today took him over 5 years of work to get where it is now. It's stupid to even compare the two.

Would you rather wait 5 years? Hmm.

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Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign)

The website isn't a side-project, it's the main project. Without the website, there is no Vortex, but without Vortex (or NMM) there's still a website. Ergo, Vortex would be the "side project".

However, development of the website and development of Vortex are parallel, rather than one delaying the other. Tannin works on Vortex, the web development team work on the website, and the only time they intersect is when Tannin needs more functionality in the web API which the web developers need to do.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: I would wait 5 years knowing that it will take 5 years for it to be finished rather than check for updates regularly only to get a notice that i have to wait for a notice that will tell me to wait for another notice.

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Balx2 wrote: Maybe NMM isn't a site you should be visiting then. It appears you did not even read the entire news post, highly doubt you have bothered to ever read any of them.

These things take time, we have received updates as the team felt they had something worth saying and everything has been explained in detail in the news posts.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: @ Balx2

Oh really then when you have all the information please tell me how will new mod manager function or look like?
How will you activate and install mods and where?
Will it be just one button on the left like NMM, will there be check mark to easily deactivate it like in MO?
Will Vortex have that annoying web page window loading every time you click on any mod like in NMM or will it have nice and clean interface like MO that actually lets you do something with that mod?
Will it be huge UI with few buttons and useless mod categories like NMM or will it let you actualy see important things like mod order and load order like in MO?
How will mod creators work with Vortex? Will they run 3rd party tools from Vortex or outside?

Go ahead i have time.

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cyrusmagnus wrote: Your complaint is odd. Honestly, it feels like you're just disappointed Tannin didn't finish MO2 and are trying to lash out and be deceptively destructive of this project.

Your questions are logical, but missing a critical point: software development is hard enough by yourself, but exponentially compounded in difficulty by every additional voice you add to the mix.

So they have Tannin, Dark0ne, the team, and 30 people looking at it. That means if person number 28 has an idea of how something could look/be better, and they voice it, they then have to query 30+ other people on if they agree or disagree. Let's say 25% of them agree, does that mean it should change? Is it majority rule? Does Tannin have the final say? Does Dark0ne?

Why on Earth do you think they'd want to open that process up to thousands of people before they've even decided in house, for sure, what they want to do? In this update Dark0ne specifically pointed out that they aren't even finalized. They're close, but close is meaningless in development. You never know what will happen next.

Again, your questions are logical, but you don't deserve to ask them. You're not paying for this product. You are not a client. You're just some lucky guy that gets to have all this free stuff plopped in their lap for nothing.

If it takes 2 months or 2 years, whatever gets made has nothing to do with your opinion or entitled demands for information. You want your own mod managing software? Learn to code and make it yourself, and stop pestering the people who are actually doing the work with your whining.

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calscks wrote: >how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone
*checks initial commits on github*
*2013*
hmm.jpg

i'd've agreed upon your point on showing a few sneak peeks regarding to Vortex, but it's completely optional for whether developers wanting to show it or not. software development works internally, even if it's "agile" enough only selected users shall provide the initial feedback to how a software should or shouldn't work during the development cycle. Tannin has enough credits -- you're completely disregarding the whole development team. @cyrusmagnus describes you well -- entitled individual who doesn't know how real software engineering works, but i can tell it looks as real as people who have spent so much time developing COMMUNITY software whilst getting lashed by take-for-granted users who insistently demand things even before release because we can already see it here.

Well said, cyrusmagnus. Seriously, well said! From what I can see, he's not even a supporter of the site. Edited November 5, 2017 by Kedavix

[Gothpunk4Christ]

I am so happy about this update... been wondering where Vortex has been in the stages as far as a potential release goes... Glad to know it's closer now, because NMM is just taking a dump whenever I try to remove certain files and mods, then go back in to realize it just "says" they're gone, but in reality the files are all still there, which is confirmed when I try to reinstall something, but an overwrite notice comes up. "Uh, this file is still magically there, so do you want me to overwrite?" Yeah, I guess... Something just isn't jiving well. Hopefully all this will be resolved when the new program is out.

[MysteriousGuy]

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223, #54947753, #54954958, #54955858, #54958068, #54976953, #54985023, #54987183, #54988083, #54995008 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

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SharraShimada wrote:

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

Tannin made MO alone back in the days, when he had the time. And it was only 32 bit. Developing such a tool with full 64 bit support is a completely different thing.
Thats why MO2 never was what Tannin was expecting from it.

And now, it takes time, because its a team. Tanning cant work all alone, doing things like he wants them to be all by himself. Everything has to be first an idea, moves to a meeting, and later there will be a consensus. Such things take time... a lot of time.
And sometimes you try something, test it, and as a result, you throw it into the dumpster, because it wont work.

Software-development is time consuming as hell. Its not just coding. In fact, thats, what take the leas amount of the time. Its everying around the lines of code.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: Seeing what Tannin was able to do with MO makes me fully believe he is more then capable to easily create amazing mod manager. Its complexity or 64-bit doesn't matter so much - he is the man for the job.

What doesn't feel right is nexus itself. Being game modding site you would expect they would promote and share information about their main modding tool - Vortex.
Instead it was kept in secrecy for months. Check news how many times they shared any information about Vortex this year. Then check how many of those posts actually speak about Vortex. Most of them are just recruitment posts.
Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign) or development was facing issues leading to delay (no info about why everything is so delayed because nexus is all shiny and beautiful).

Ignoring what it feels like and back to what we do know is - it's over a year now that Tannin was recruited for this job. That's one year of people waiting for new mod manager or at least some information about its functionality and looks. A week ago new site design was announced and then they said we are finally getting an update about vortex this week.
This week they tell us we will get nothing (not even a screenshot because imagine if people say they don't like it, and everyone has to like it when its finished) but we have to wait for 2 months now to get something.

Do we get an update in 2 months that now we have to wait a year for an update?

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Dark0ne wrote:

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Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

When Tannin first released MO it was simply the VFS system with a text file on how to enable it. The MO you see today took him over 5 years of work to get where it is now. It's stupid to even compare the two.

Would you rather wait 5 years? Hmm.

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Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign)

The website isn't a side-project, it's the main project. Without the website, there is no Vortex, but without Vortex (or NMM) there's still a website. Ergo, Vortex would be the "side project".

However, development of the website and development of Vortex are parallel, rather than one delaying the other. Tannin works on Vortex, the web development team work on the website, and the only time they intersect is when Tannin needs more functionality in the web API which the web developers need to do.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: I would wait 5 years knowing that it will take 5 years for it to be finished rather than check for updates regularly only to get a notice that i have to wait for a notice that will tell me to wait for another notice.

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Balx2 wrote: Maybe NMM isn't a site you should be visiting then. It appears you did not even read the entire news post, highly doubt you have bothered to ever read any of them.

These things take time, we have received updates as the team felt they had something worth saying and everything has been explained in detail in the news posts.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: @ Balx2

Oh really then when you have all the information please tell me how will new mod manager function or look like?
How will you activate and install mods and where?
Will it be just one button on the left like NMM, will there be check mark to easily deactivate it like in MO?
Will Vortex have that annoying web page window loading every time you click on any mod like in NMM or will it have nice and clean interface like MO that actually lets you do something with that mod?
Will it be huge UI with few buttons and useless mod categories like NMM or will it let you actualy see important things like mod order and load order like in MO?
How will mod creators work with Vortex? Will they run 3rd party tools from Vortex or outside?

Go ahead i have time.

  Quote

cyrusmagnus wrote: Your complaint is odd. Honestly, it feels like you're just disappointed Tannin didn't finish MO2 and are trying to lash out and be deceptively destructive of this project.

Your questions are logical, but missing a critical point: software development is hard enough by yourself, but exponentially compounded in difficulty by every additional voice you add to the mix.

So they have Tannin, Dark0ne, the team, and 30 people looking at it. That means if person number 28 has an idea of how something could look/be better, and they voice it, they then have to query 30+ other people on if they agree or disagree. Let's say 25% of them agree, does that mean it should change? Is it majority rule? Does Tannin have the final say? Does Dark0ne?

Why on Earth do you think they'd want to open that process up to thousands of people before they've even decided in house, for sure, what they want to do? In this update Dark0ne specifically pointed out that they aren't even finalized. They're close, but close is meaningless in development. You never know what will happen next.

Again, your questions are logical, but you don't deserve to ask them. You're not paying for this product. You are not a client. You're just some lucky guy that gets to have all this free stuff plopped in their lap for nothing.

If it takes 2 months or 2 years, whatever gets made has nothing to do with your opinion or entitled demands for information. You want your own mod managing software? Learn to code and make it yourself, and stop pestering the people who are actually doing the work with your whining.

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calscks wrote: >how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone
*checks initial commits on github*
*2013*
hmm.jpg

i'd've agreed upon your point on showing a few sneak peeks regarding to Vortex, but it's completely optional for whether developers wanting to show it or not. software development works internally, even if it's "agile" enough only selected users shall provide the initial feedback to how a software should or shouldn't work during the development cycle. Tannin has enough credits -- you're completely disregarding the whole development team. @cyrusmagnus describes you well -- entitled individual who doesn't know how real software engineering works, but i can tell it looks as real as people who have spent so much time developing COMMUNITY software whilst getting lashed by take-for-granted users who insistently demand things even before release because we can already see it here.

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Kedavix wrote: Well said, cyrusmagnus. Seriously, well said! From what I can see, he's not even a supporter of the site.

Do i have to be a supporter of the site to be right?

I know how to code and I'm making my own programs that i need for work so all of your comments about how I don't know software development are just random imaginations.

From start I never said anything against Tannin or development team. I was saying that he was obviously delayed by something and i have an issue with nexus not sharing info on why or showing any development progress.

People are waiting for this more then they are waiting for new site redesign and that's a fact even if you don't agree.

I'm being attacked for saying what everyone is thinking so i hope it will be your way - i hope we wont see any info until next year. (You don't want to see it, right?)

[Ethreon]

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223, #54947753, #54954958, #54955858, #54958068, #54976953, #54985023, #54987183, #54988083, #54995008, #54997683 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

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SharraShimada wrote:

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

Tannin made MO alone back in the days, when he had the time. And it was only 32 bit. Developing such a tool with full 64 bit support is a completely different thing.
Thats why MO2 never was what Tannin was expecting from it.

And now, it takes time, because its a team. Tanning cant work all alone, doing things like he wants them to be all by himself. Everything has to be first an idea, moves to a meeting, and later there will be a consensus. Such things take time... a lot of time.
And sometimes you try something, test it, and as a result, you throw it into the dumpster, because it wont work.

Software-development is time consuming as hell. Its not just coding. In fact, thats, what take the leas amount of the time. Its everying around the lines of code.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: Seeing what Tannin was able to do with MO makes me fully believe he is more then capable to easily create amazing mod manager. Its complexity or 64-bit doesn't matter so much - he is the man for the job.

What doesn't feel right is nexus itself. Being game modding site you would expect they would promote and share information about their main modding tool - Vortex.
Instead it was kept in secrecy for months. Check news how many times they shared any information about Vortex this year. Then check how many of those posts actually speak about Vortex. Most of them are just recruitment posts.
Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign) or development was facing issues leading to delay (no info about why everything is so delayed because nexus is all shiny and beautiful).

Ignoring what it feels like and back to what we do know is - it's over a year now that Tannin was recruited for this job. That's one year of people waiting for new mod manager or at least some information about its functionality and looks. A week ago new site design was announced and then they said we are finally getting an update about vortex this week.
This week they tell us we will get nothing (not even a screenshot because imagine if people say they don't like it, and everyone has to like it when its finished) but we have to wait for 2 months now to get something.

Do we get an update in 2 months that now we have to wait a year for an update?

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Dark0ne wrote:

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Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

When Tannin first released MO it was simply the VFS system with a text file on how to enable it. The MO you see today took him over 5 years of work to get where it is now. It's stupid to even compare the two.

Would you rather wait 5 years? Hmm.

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Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign)

The website isn't a side-project, it's the main project. Without the website, there is no Vortex, but without Vortex (or NMM) there's still a website. Ergo, Vortex would be the "side project".

However, development of the website and development of Vortex are parallel, rather than one delaying the other. Tannin works on Vortex, the web development team work on the website, and the only time they intersect is when Tannin needs more functionality in the web API which the web developers need to do.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: I would wait 5 years knowing that it will take 5 years for it to be finished rather than check for updates regularly only to get a notice that i have to wait for a notice that will tell me to wait for another notice.

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Balx2 wrote: Maybe NMM isn't a site you should be visiting then. It appears you did not even read the entire news post, highly doubt you have bothered to ever read any of them.

These things take time, we have received updates as the team felt they had something worth saying and everything has been explained in detail in the news posts.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: @ Balx2

Oh really then when you have all the information please tell me how will new mod manager function or look like?
How will you activate and install mods and where?
Will it be just one button on the left like NMM, will there be check mark to easily deactivate it like in MO?
Will Vortex have that annoying web page window loading every time you click on any mod like in NMM or will it have nice and clean interface like MO that actually lets you do something with that mod?
Will it be huge UI with few buttons and useless mod categories like NMM or will it let you actualy see important things like mod order and load order like in MO?
How will mod creators work with Vortex? Will they run 3rd party tools from Vortex or outside?

Go ahead i have time.

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cyrusmagnus wrote: Your complaint is odd. Honestly, it feels like you're just disappointed Tannin didn't finish MO2 and are trying to lash out and be deceptively destructive of this project.

Your questions are logical, but missing a critical point: software development is hard enough by yourself, but exponentially compounded in difficulty by every additional voice you add to the mix.

So they have Tannin, Dark0ne, the team, and 30 people looking at it. That means if person number 28 has an idea of how something could look/be better, and they voice it, they then have to query 30+ other people on if they agree or disagree. Let's say 25% of them agree, does that mean it should change? Is it majority rule? Does Tannin have the final say? Does Dark0ne?

Why on Earth do you think they'd want to open that process up to thousands of people before they've even decided in house, for sure, what they want to do? In this update Dark0ne specifically pointed out that they aren't even finalized. They're close, but close is meaningless in development. You never know what will happen next.

Again, your questions are logical, but you don't deserve to ask them. You're not paying for this product. You are not a client. You're just some lucky guy that gets to have all this free stuff plopped in their lap for nothing.

If it takes 2 months or 2 years, whatever gets made has nothing to do with your opinion or entitled demands for information. You want your own mod managing software? Learn to code and make it yourself, and stop pestering the people who are actually doing the work with your whining.

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calscks wrote: >how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone
*checks initial commits on github*
*2013*
hmm.jpg

i'd've agreed upon your point on showing a few sneak peeks regarding to Vortex, but it's completely optional for whether developers wanting to show it or not. software development works internally, even if it's "agile" enough only selected users shall provide the initial feedback to how a software should or shouldn't work during the development cycle. Tannin has enough credits -- you're completely disregarding the whole development team. @cyrusmagnus describes you well -- entitled individual who doesn't know how real software engineering works, but i can tell it looks as real as people who have spent so much time developing COMMUNITY software whilst getting lashed by take-for-granted users who insistently demand things even before release because we can already see it here.

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Kedavix wrote: Well said, cyrusmagnus. Seriously, well said! From what I can see, he's not even a supporter of the site.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: Do i have to be a supporter of the site to be right?

I know how to code and I'm making my own programs that i need for work so all of your comments about how I don't know software development are just random imaginations.

From start I never said anything against Tannin or development team. I was saying that he was obviously delayed by something and i have an issue with nexus not sharing info on why or showing any development progress.

People are waiting for this more then they are waiting for new site redesign and that's a fact even if you don't agree.

I'm being attacked for saying what everyone is thinking so i hope it will be your way - i hope we wont see any info until next year. (You don't want to see it, right?)

You have to be right to be right. Your supporter status is irrelevant, so is whatever programs you claim to do.

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223, #54947753, #54954958, #54955858, #54958068, #54976953, #54985023, #54987183, #54988083, #54995008, #54997683, #54998783 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

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SharraShimada wrote:

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223 are all replies on the same post.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

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fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

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lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

Tannin made MO alone back in the days, when he had the time. And it was only 32 bit. Developing such a tool with full 64 bit support is a completely different thing.
Thats why MO2 never was what Tannin was expecting from it.

And now, it takes time, because its a team. Tanning cant work all alone, doing things like he wants them to be all by himself. Everything has to be first an idea, moves to a meeting, and later there will be a consensus. Such things take time... a lot of time.
And sometimes you try something, test it, and as a result, you throw it into the dumpster, because it wont work.

Software-development is time consuming as hell. Its not just coding. In fact, thats, what take the leas amount of the time. Its everying around the lines of code.

  Quote

MysteriousGuy wrote: Seeing what Tannin was able to do with MO makes me fully believe he is more then capable to easily create amazing mod manager. Its complexity or 64-bit doesn't matter so much - he is the man for the job.

What doesn't feel right is nexus itself. Being game modding site you would expect they would promote and share information about their main modding tool - Vortex.
Instead it was kept in secrecy for months. Check news how many times they shared any information about Vortex this year. Then check how many of those posts actually speak about Vortex. Most of them are just recruitment posts.
Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign) or development was facing issues leading to delay (no info about why everything is so delayed because nexus is all shiny and beautiful).

Ignoring what it feels like and back to what we do know is - it's over a year now that Tannin was recruited for this job. That's one year of people waiting for new mod manager or at least some information about its functionality and looks. A week ago new site design was announced and then they said we are finally getting an update about vortex this week.
This week they tell us we will get nothing (not even a screenshot because imagine if people say they don't like it, and everyone has to like it when its finished) but we have to wait for 2 months now to get something.

Do we get an update in 2 months that now we have to wait a year for an update?

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Dark0ne wrote:

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Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

When Tannin first released MO it was simply the VFS system with a text file on how to enable it. The MO you see today took him over 5 years of work to get where it is now. It's stupid to even compare the two.

Would you rather wait 5 years? Hmm.

  Quote

Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign)

The website isn't a side-project, it's the main project. Without the website, there is no Vortex, but without Vortex (or NMM) there's still a website. Ergo, Vortex would be the "side project".

However, development of the website and development of Vortex are parallel, rather than one delaying the other. Tannin works on Vortex, the web development team work on the website, and the only time they intersect is when Tannin needs more functionality in the web API which the web developers need to do.

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MysteriousGuy wrote: I would wait 5 years knowing that it will take 5 years for it to be finished rather than check for updates regularly only to get a notice that i have to wait for a notice that will tell me to wait for another notice.

  Quote

Balx2 wrote: Maybe NMM isn't a site you should be visiting then. It appears you did not even read the entire news post, highly doubt you have bothered to ever read any of them.

These things take time, we have received updates as the team felt they had something worth saying and everything has been explained in detail in the news posts.

  Quote

MysteriousGuy wrote: @ Balx2

Oh really then when you have all the information please tell me how will new mod manager function or look like?
How will you activate and install mods and where?
Will it be just one button on the left like NMM, will there be check mark to easily deactivate it like in MO?
Will Vortex have that annoying web page window loading every time you click on any mod like in NMM or will it have nice and clean interface like MO that actually lets you do something with that mod?
Will it be huge UI with few buttons and useless mod categories like NMM or will it let you actualy see important things like mod order and load order like in MO?
How will mod creators work with Vortex? Will they run 3rd party tools from Vortex or outside?

Go ahead i have time.

  Quote

cyrusmagnus wrote: Your complaint is odd. Honestly, it feels like you're just disappointed Tannin didn't finish MO2 and are trying to lash out and be deceptively destructive of this project.

Your questions are logical, but missing a critical point: software development is hard enough by yourself, but exponentially compounded in difficulty by every additional voice you add to the mix.

So they have Tannin, Dark0ne, the team, and 30 people looking at it. That means if person number 28 has an idea of how something could look/be better, and they voice it, they then have to query 30+ other people on if they agree or disagree. Let's say 25% of them agree, does that mean it should change? Is it majority rule? Does Tannin have the final say? Does Dark0ne?

Why on Earth do you think they'd want to open that process up to thousands of people before they've even decided in house, for sure, what they want to do? In this update Dark0ne specifically pointed out that they aren't even finalized. They're close, but close is meaningless in development. You never know what will happen next.

Again, your questions are logical, but you don't deserve to ask them. You're not paying for this product. You are not a client. You're just some lucky guy that gets to have all this free stuff plopped in their lap for nothing.

If it takes 2 months or 2 years, whatever gets made has nothing to do with your opinion or entitled demands for information. You want your own mod managing software? Learn to code and make it yourself, and stop pestering the people who are actually doing the work with your whining.

  Quote

calscks wrote: >how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone
*checks initial commits on github*
*2013*
hmm.jpg

i'd've agreed upon your point on showing a few sneak peeks regarding to Vortex, but it's completely optional for whether developers wanting to show it or not. software development works internally, even if it's "agile" enough only selected users shall provide the initial feedback to how a software should or shouldn't work during the development cycle. Tannin has enough credits -- you're completely disregarding the whole development team. @cyrusmagnus describes you well -- entitled individual who doesn't know how real software engineering works, but i can tell it looks as real as people who have spent so much time developing COMMUNITY software whilst getting lashed by take-for-granted users who insistently demand things even before release because we can already see it here.

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Kedavix wrote: Well said, cyrusmagnus. Seriously, well said! From what I can see, he's not even a supporter of the site.

  Quote

MysteriousGuy wrote: Do i have to be a supporter of the site to be right?

I know how to code and I'm making my own programs that i need for work so all of your comments about how I don't know software development are just random imaginations.

From start I never said anything against Tannin or development team. I was saying that he was obviously delayed by something and i have an issue with nexus not sharing info on why or showing any development progress.

People are waiting for this more then they are waiting for new site redesign and that's a fact even if you don't agree.

I'm being attacked for saying what everyone is thinking so i hope it will be your way - i hope we wont see any info until next year. (You don't want to see it, right?)

  Quote

Ethreon wrote: You have to be right to be right. Your supporter status is irrelevant, so is whatever programs you claim to do.

From the announcement article for Vortex:

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How long have you been working on this? How long is it going to take?

Tannin officially started working for us at the beginning of August. We’re determined to get it right this time, so we’ve been spending a lot of time getting everything written down into proper documentation. Actual programming work has now begun on the project and while I cannot give you any specific timeframes as to how long it’ll take before we get things out, you can rest assured it’s being worked on.

From the Q&A in May:

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Robin: Moving forward, what are your release plans for Vortex? Will there be an alpha? What time scales are we talking here?

Tannin: Giving concrete dates is always difficult because one almost always underestimates the amount of work required to polish stuff towards the end.

My current plan is to have an early alpha build in the hands of a limited group of test users within a month, maybe 6 weeks.

Depending on their feedback we should expect somewhere between 1-3 months to fix bugs after which I think we can release a public alpha.

So right now we're about 3 months "behind" Tannin's very rough estimates and ultimately will be 5 months behind if we release the Alpha in January. That time has been spent by Tannin optimising things, fixing bugs from the testing group and working on the UI and UX.

Honestly...you need to chill and remove the stick from wherever it's lodged. If you honestly work in software development, you would know that time estimates are just that. Estimates. Edited November 5, 2017 by Dark0ne

[azraal]

In response to post #54983273. #54992608, #54993793 are all replies on the same post.

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azraal wrote: Honestly, I will reserve my judgement for when I have the actual program in my hands...
But unless I misunderstood, it checks at least one of my requirements:

Easily return to a clean state without having to click an hundred time. I don't really care about the fact I won't have a clean folder or not in any other time. The idea is if I mess up I can go back to a pristine install without delete/redownload.

As for my second, the most important to me and the reason I use MO rather than nmm is the ease to change the load order for the mods ressources. Want an older mod to take precedence over the other? You don't have to uninstall both and reinstall giving hell to your files in the process.... You just drag the mod up or down and the stuff just works it's magic the next time you launch it.
But in the end, setting your order and clicking a "generate folder" button would be a good middle ground. Because if each time we move a mod we have to wait for the whole things to be re-created it will be hell unless it's really fast even with a large number of mod.

Those are my important points for a mod manager.

As for the rest in all honesty, it really come down to testing the program itself. NMM took time to get used to, as did MO, and as will vortex.

That said, for those who don't want vortex, le presidente and a small team are still working on MO and a release will happen soonish if the discord is to be believed...
https://github.com/LePresidente/modorganizer (hope no one will mind I put the link here)

So it's not like there is a reason to fight over the features anyway. Well as long as nexusmods keep the api to their site open, there is another option.

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RDubon wrote: Mod order installation is surely very important for many folks, worst case i personally can live without the virtualization system but not been able to easily change the load order for mods resources will surely discourage some of us from migrating to vortex.

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ReaperTai wrote: There is a way to do both of those in NMM as well, I do it all the time. Just save a preset with everything off or use the tool tab to disable all mods for clean starts, and goto the plugin tab and drag the mod up or down to change load order.

Since they hired the guy who made MO it should have the best features of both.

That's the issue I had with nmm, no fast and easy way only workaround.
But the fact is the principles behind the way mods are handled never changed since the early days. It improved but never really changed and become to hard to change. That's why they're making vortex.

We'll just have to wait for the feature complete version to see how it compare, but if anything, the public alpha from january will be an indication of what to expect...