An update on Vortex development

[HeyYou]

If I am understanding this correctly...... it isn't really a 'modpack' in the generally accepted form of that term, it is a list of mods, in a specific order, that have been put together by someone else, who is offering their load order as a 'template' for Vortex to build a load order from. It reads the list, downloads the mods from the mod authors page, and installs them into the proper folder. (or, however virtualization is going to work with Vortex.......) So, no one is uploading someone elses work, so there are no rights violations happening.

 

It is still going to require the end-user to make a 'bashed patch', if one is required...... (is this something vortex is going to do as well?) After all, it's a list. That's it.

[FalloutNewb]

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431 are all replies on the same post.

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

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Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

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Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

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Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.

[ErusPrime]

  On 12/28/2017 at 9:46 AM, acidzebra said:

Well, if the authors don't want it, that's their choice. Right?

Yes and no. The author's should have control of the content being distributed and the channels through which it is distributed. The suggestion, in this case, would not change the distribution channels. In fact, the point is that it doesn't. Nexus is the CDN. So there's no reuploads or possible content change that isn't controlled by the author. It could lead to more visibility for them though. It's good for everyone involved.

 

  On 12/28/2017 at 9:46 AM, acidzebra said:

One thought I have is that minecraft and TES games are very different beasts in terms of complexity and if you think you can load up 150 mods and go off on merry adventures in any TES game just by clicking a button and then everything will be fine then you are deluding yourself. For reference, see the skyrim tech support section of the forums. And that's before even considering different versions of mods and patches being released and older versions becoming unavailable (unless again you are prepared to disregard some author's wishes and just reupload at will). And THAT is just the least of the problems I can think of with TES modpacks.

 

Early minecraft modding was about where TES is now. It was an annoying clusterf*#@ to find new and unique mods and then get them installed. Install order was important. Resolving conflicts required me to open up eclipse and edit a few mods on occasion.

Then people started breaking the rules and now we have a pretty streamlined system of mod and modpack distribution. I like having my own collection of mods but I also like experiencing the game in the ways other people enjoy. And sometimes I don't want to f*** around with creating my own merge patches and verifying load orders and trying to understand why I'm getting a CTD without any kind of log but this setup works just fine for someone else.

 

  On 12/28/2017 at 9:46 AM, acidzebra said:

Nobody who pours hundreds/thousands of hours into playing videogames should be able to say this with a straight face. It's laziness and nothing more.

 

It's hard for me to have sympathy with a culture where an author spends countless hours on their work but a consumer can't even be arsed to take 2 minutes to read a description page to understand how to install something and just wants "teh modz". And for me that is the opposite of why I mod games - I mod because I want something changed in game(s) according to my tastes, not a whole slew of changes that are good according to someone else's taste. It's a very personal thing, not a "press button to make good" thing. Unless you're lazy AND unimaginative.

 

It's a tedious thing, also time consuming, and a huge pain in the ass to maintain personally (especially on the newer games that still have a lot of development happening). People spend hundreds/thousands of hours driving their car. Most people generally don't build their car from scratch or have to rebuild it every time something goes wrong.

[Behelit79]

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

  Quote

Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

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Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

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Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

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FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more. Edited January 3, 2018 by Behelit79

[HyrulianWolf]

le poke, how goes the progress?

 

everyone have a good Christmas? a great Happy New Year?

 

this is directed to all, especially the dev team of vortex, cant wait to see what we can break

[MarchinBunny]

  On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

 

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:

It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

  Quote

Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

  Quote

Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79

It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

 

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

  Quote

Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

 

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.

The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

 

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.

Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

  Quote

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

 

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

 

Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

 

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

 

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.

I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

 

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

 

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Brabbit1987

[sopmac45]

In response to post #56492581.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:

  On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

 

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

  Quote

Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

  Quote

Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

  Quote

Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

  Quote

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

 

Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

[Flip777]

In response to post #56260981.

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ozoak wrote:

  On 12/26/2017 at 10:56 AM, Ethreon said:

 

In response to post #56063171.

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ozoak wrote:

In response to post #56051751.

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ozoak wrote:

  On 12/17/2017 at 7:50 AM, Ethreon said:

In response to post #56044656.

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ozoak wrote:

I think everyone who's mentioned "mod packs" in this thread is using it as convenient naming only - I don't believe any of those people are actually suggesting downloading, combining and republishing the mods.

I'd be more inclined to call the concept a "playlist", because I believe what people would like to see is something that has more in common with that principle than what we typically call a modpack.

And I don't see how it *wouldn't* be possible, if not in the core utility but at least through the API that has been spruiked a couple of times.

It would essentially be a sub-set of a profile, simply an ordered list of ID's with min version numbers without the rest of the profile data.

Will Vortex be smart enough to alert users when mods listed in a profile are missing? I hope so, because even without playlists of mods users will from time to time screw up and manually delete mods when they shouldn't.

So a very non-complex solution would be: create profile, import playlist, Vortex alerts user to which mods are missing (all, or assuming the user may have already downloaded some, only some of), uses Vortex to download them.

None of us know the specifics, of course, of what the API will allow but if it allows interactions with the Profiles, then as I said, I can't see how it wouldn't be possible.

It'll be interesting to see what the API is capable of when it get launched.

Congratulations, you now have a broken game.

Fairly certain that you're not comprehending what I'm suggesting.

Why on earth would a game break by having an ordered list of mods with version info as a template for what is required?

It would be a trivial logic to work through:

* create new profile

* import mod list

* check if any mods in imported list are available because they have been previously downloaded

** If mod has not been downloaded, mark mods as "missing, requires download"

If Vortex is already linking, and not copying/moving, mods then I am hoping it would already have a mechanism to detect if a mod downloaded has gone missing.

Why would the game break?

To me this seems like an attempt to break your game by downloading and installing a bunch of games someone put together as a list. While I'm sure this can be done, I don't see it not being used by unexperienced or clueless users and breaking their games easily. Whoever makes such list would also have to make sure the patches required for compatibility are included, and I assume you'd then install everything yourself. All in all, while good, this sounds like an easy game breaking feature. But I'm sure someone can make a module since Vertex is advertised as allowing such.

Less abrupt and combative than last time, so I can work with this :smile:

I agree with the conclusion, but not the scope of your premise? I completely agree, a mod playlist could be unplayable or degrade the experience (and in case I wasn't clear I wasn't suggesting adding a mod playlist to an already ordered loadout would work - it would need to be a clean profile with the user having an option to add further mods afterwards) however if a playlist was a category on Nexus, and they had comments/forum just like mods, then they would be no more and no less prone to not working or blindsiding someone who employs one than any single mod. I haven't bothered to look at how they're being categorised but there are users already uploads "mods" which are just lists of other mods they assert work well together.

Is there a difference between individually downloading 5 mods and downloading a playlist which links 5 mods? In terms of known compatibility etc.

Sure, some mods provide patches but many do not. I think someone who didn't bother to read the description and at least view recent comments would have equal chance either way of causing issues for their gameplay.

I spent the best part of 3 hours last night going through the remainder of my 'go to' list of mods and getting their (now) released SSE conversion or downloading alternatives to them [side note, pretty pleased - around 90% over the line]. That's around 200 mods, and only a small % of those offer compatibility patches - the vast majority are (or at least were) a roll of the dice. Just looking at that core group of mods I probably have downloaded/tried/tested twice that trying to find workable combos.

Theoretically if I pumped out a playlist, it would be more stable than starting from scratch. Think also things like STEP if there was a playlist 'core' to kick things off.

Mod playlists definitely wouldn't be the answer to everything, but IMO totally doable and no less risky than 'suck it and see' approach to adding mods, and just like with all mods - use at own risk, the key would be having feedback via comments so users could gauge how well they've worked for others.

Your playlist still requires working out on it. You need to make patches yourself, specially for all the weapon and armour stuff. This would be best served as a "cue to download" with a play button which could be done on your phone when you're at work or away, and once home you can just start installing the downloaded mods. As I said, I'm sure in the end someone can make what you want since you can add modules to Vortex.

 

 

Hey, I don't want it :) Just reasonably sure that there's a demand for it.

The wisdom of such packs is an entirely separate consideration to "can it be done?" though, I think. Personally I wouldn't use a full list of mods suggested by someone else in a one-click-and-play model because I like to check out, thoroughly, each mod I'm using in a play through.

 

As I was sitting back thinking about it, I came up with a scenario, a really common one, that could easily make such lists virtually worthless (certainly very unpredictable): mods with domod/bain installers. It'd be easy enough to throw together a list of simple mods, including their associated patch files, and a load order for them, but once we consider mods that are configure during install, it gets hairy. I mean you could do a quick list (for instance) of a UNP bodmod, and some basic armours that are UNP ready, but what if you then added some texture pack that has dozens of options, or an armour pack that includes half a dozen different body types. Just wouldn't work. I've no doubt someone will give this a go once they're got an API to work with, but for my thinking it'll be scripted mod installers that bring it undone as a concept.

If the modpack was created by someone previously, then scripted installer just puts files in folders based on options. Once someone picks those options for you, files go in folders like any other.

If it's just a playlist like links to mods that the MM downloads then yes I could see scripted installers needing to either be pre-programmed with options by the playlist maker, or include instructions for the user to make certain choices. Otherwise it could be an issue Edited January 4, 2018 by FLipdeezy

[ErusPrime]

  On 1/4/2018 at 12:08 PM, sopmac45 said:

 

In response to post #56492581.

 

 

 

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Brabbit1987 wrote:

Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

 

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

 

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.

I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

 

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

 

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

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Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79

It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

 

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:

It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

 

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

 

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.

The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

 

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.

Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

 

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

 

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :

- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order

- Do what LOOT does automatically

- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD

- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance

- Automatically update mods

- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

 

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

 

 

 

  On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

 

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:

It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

  Quote

Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

  Quote

Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79

It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

 

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

  Quote

Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

 

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.

The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

 

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.

Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

  Quote

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

 

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

 

 

 

I don't understand the argument against a system that only adds functionality. Literally nothing is being taken away. Your ability to play with whatever mods you want is still there. The only thing that changes is now you can spend all that time and share it with other people without breaking the rules. Because I guarantee there are a lot of people who have put their files on a jump drive and installed their mod setup for someone else. Because 20 minutes of that vs. hours/days/weeks of walking them through the process is f*#@ing stupid when we absolutely have the technology to allow it through controllable channels.

[Ethreon]

In response to post #56499046.

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ErusPrime wrote:

  On 1/4/2018 at 12:08 PM, sopmac45 said:

 

In response to post #56492581.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:

Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

  Reveal hidden contents

  Quote

Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

 

 

 

  On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

 

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

  Reveal hidden contents

  Quote

tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

  Quote

Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

  Quote

Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

  Quote

Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

  Quote

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.

Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

 

 

 

I don't understand the argument against a system that only adds functionality. Literally nothing is being taken away. Your ability to play with whatever mods you want is still there. The only thing that changes is now you can spend all that time and share it with other people without breaking the rules. Because I guarantee there are a lot of people who have put their files on a jump drive and installed their mod setup for someone else. Because 20 minutes of that vs. hours/days/weeks of walking them through the process is f*#@ing stupid when we absolutely have the technology to allow it through controllable channels.

Learn to use a spoiler, it won't bite you.

Here is why modpacks are not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.