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An update on Vortex development


Dark0ne

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In response to post #56570596.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #56561296.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

It has nothing to do with a universal truth. It's just a matter of common sense. I explained that not everyone cares so much about getting things perfectly the way they want them if it means being able to jump in the game a lot quicker.

Plus you get to try out new experiences you may not have thought of yourself. How do you know you don't like something till you try it ... right? That's one of the best things about Modded Minecraft. The experience you get from each mod pack can be vastly different. Something you will find is that some people go pretty far and create a pack that incorporates the mods so well together that unless you wanted to spend months doing that yourself, you would have never had that experience. Maybe even a mod developer wants to create a pack and make a mod specific to that pack in Skyrim to do the same sort of thing.

At the pack level, things can get very creative when you are trying to peice it all together. A good mod pack developer doesn't just throw everything together and call it a day. They go through extensive testing, balancing, making changes, fixing bugs, sometimes even developing mods themselves to include things that they might not be able to get elsewhere for what they want to do or to try and unify all the mods in a seamless expereince.

Also, you are another person who says they don't care if we get the feature. Why do you argue against people who want the feature then if you don't care?

In response to post #56544376. #56544626 is also a reply to the same post.


Ethreon wrote: *shrug* Empty people preach empty words. Let him do his kiddie crusade, ain't like that would suddenly change Dark0ne's mind.acidzebra wrote:

Is he still going? I put him on ignore after it became clear he has no idea about what making mods for either Skyrim or Minecraft entails or why the internals of one game would be more complex than the other, he just wants his one-click toys and to hell with what anyone else wants, even the creators of those toys. What a great member of the 'community'.

In his holy crusade he is so blind to think he has the only, universal, truth. You can show him practical, and even simple, examples related to this very specific game modding mechanics (an infinity of multiple choices always bound to an overriding/merging system) and he will answer taking in account other games. Well, what else to say? The holy crusader doesn't understand that, if devs implement a modpacks support system, it would change 0 in my, yours, and many others Skyrim modding/gaming experience so i really hope they will do it, even just for not reading any more nonsense.

The only way looking at it from a skyrim/fallout perspective to provide a mod pack as I see it. Would be instead to provide a mod that was the merging of those other mods into one mega mod (not necessarily one esp/esm) then it would handle the dependency issue. (Which would probably not be a simple task)

Something that I can't imagine happening unless a bunch of authors got together to build a unifying experience.

Which has happened before Mods like FWE and Project Nevada. (They are more than what i could call a mod pack but provide what in think your looking for in one)

Which would pretty much be the same process your asking the modpack author to do, just a few extra steps but less potential errors. (not to say that it wont be error free.)

Other games that require third party tools to hook into or hijack them to mod I can't see being able to use this at all (some that require things like texmod)

All of this saying nothing of what it would take to get the permissions straightened out.

So, I guess my long rambling put short. While I don't see what your asking for as viable. I don't see how it can't exist in a different form and how doesn't already do so.

 

This site is irritating sometimes. I can write something and it doesn't actually post what I wrote only the quotes. >.>, Nexus forums is so buggy.

Anyway, I suggest you go a bit further back to read, because I don't think you understand what I was talking about at all. We are talking about a function for Vortex to be able to read a file that has the information how what mods to download and install and in what order to place them. Meaning no mods would be literally in the pack. They would be grabbed from the same location as if you did it manually.

What I went into in my last post was just examples of how far some people could go.

Edit: But ya, if a mod pack author wanted to unify some mods, they would likely need to work together with the mod authors for permissions and such and create a mod themselves to upload to the nexus. It's not something everyone could do.


Forgive me, I have trouble with wording things.

I'm referring to what I believe is the reason for having a mod pack in the first place. Sometimes the end result can be achieved by different means and is better off being done so.

If, I'm understanding you simply want a easy way to get a completely overhauled game via mods with one click of a button (or something along those lines), or even just small things like weapon packs. Kind of like how curse or steam does it.

Their are many different technical issues with that as others have pointed out. TheDarkOne probably said it far better than I could in the reedit post linked in this form.

Mods for skyrim can be very complex. To say that the average user could just safely create a order install list and call it good seems hard to believe.

1. Mods can get deleted or specific versions can get deleted. If mods weren't so potentially complex as they are in fallout/skyrim I wouldn't think defaulting to the latest version being an issue since some of those mods could be frameworks. As a programmer I can tell you, new changes to frameworks can lead to compatibility issues with old work requiring either a copy of the old framework or updating the code base to match the new framework.

2. Many mods often need compatibility patches to work with one another. Merged/Bashed patches help the end user tackle this but are not always able to do the job. This list would need means of distributing custom patches to make the list function (which can go so large with scripts, meshes, esp's that they may as well be mods in them selves.)
Not to mention tackling balancing.

3. The end user would still need to acquire third party assets (ones not distributed through the nexus) like skse, texmod, ENB e.tc. and configure those themselves. (which even what i suggested won't handle).

Really the only way i see to handle the complexity of this is to just make one big mod with all that packaged and modified accordingly. Which, may end up being so complex it requires a team to do it (well to reasonably do it).

Now should a pack be so simple, that its just a collection of skins for weapons kind of like some of the creation club collections. Then i can see such a pack being easy to do but ordering may not be simple as it would have to account for other mods in the list as likely the user will have downloaded multiple packs. Ordering would probably have to occur after all mods in the LO are taken into account not just that of the tiny pack.

If mods could be guaranteed to be small and modular this would be a much easier task.

Now, I'm not arguing against packs in general i just don't think that would work as a delivery method. I'm also trying to say that i think what you want already exists just in a different form than expected. Edited by AFKRoger
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In response to post #56570596.

 

 

 

Brabbit1987 wrote:

This site is irritating sometimes. I can write something and it doesn't actually post what I wrote only the quotes. >.>, Nexus forums is so buggy.

 

Anyway, I suggest you go a bit further back to read, because I don't think you understand what I was talking about at all. We are talking about a function for Vortex to be able to read a file that has the information how what mods to download and install and in what order to place them. Meaning no mods would be literally in the pack. They would be grabbed from the same location as if you did it manually.

 

What I went into in my last post was just examples of how far some people could go.

 

Edit: But ya, if a mod pack author wanted to unify some mods, they would likely need to work together with the mod authors for permissions and such and create a mod themselves to upload to the nexus. It's not something everyone could do.

In response to post #56561296.

 

 

 

Brabbit1987 wrote:

It has nothing to do with a universal truth. It's just a matter of common sense. I explained that not everyone cares so much about getting things perfectly the way they want them if it means being able to jump in the game a lot quicker.

 

Plus you get to try out new experiences you may not have thought of yourself. How do you know you don't like something till you try it ... right? That's one of the best things about Modded Minecraft. The experience you get from each mod pack can be vastly different. Something you will find is that some people go pretty far and create a pack that incorporates the mods so well together that unless you wanted to spend months doing that yourself, you would have never had that experience. Maybe even a mod developer wants to create a pack and make a mod specific to that pack in Skyrim to do the same sort of thing.

 

At the pack level, things can get very creative when you are trying to peice it all together. A good mod pack developer doesn't just throw everything together and call it a day. They go through extensive testing, balancing, making changes, fixing bugs, sometimes even developing mods themselves to include things that they might not be able to get elsewhere for what they want to do or to try and unify all the mods in a seamless expereince.

 

Also, you are another person who says they don't care if we get the feature. Why do you argue against people who want the feature then if you don't care?

In response to post #56544376. #56544626 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

Ethreon wrote: *shrug* Empty people preach empty words. Let him do his kiddie crusade, ain't like that would suddenly change Dark0ne's mind.acidzebra wrote:

Is he still going? I put him on ignore after it became clear he has no idea about what making mods for either Skyrim or Minecraft entails or why the internals of one game would be more complex than the other, he just wants his one-click toys and to hell with what anyone else wants, even the creators of those toys. What a great member of the 'community'.

In his holy crusade he is so blind to think he has the only, universal, truth. You can show him practical, and even simple, examples related to this very specific game modding mechanics (an infinity of multiple choices always bound to an overriding/merging system) and he will answer taking in account other games. Well, what else to say? The holy crusader doesn't understand that, if devs implement a modpacks support system, it would change 0 in my, yours, and many others Skyrim modding/gaming experience so i really hope they will do it, even just for not reading any more nonsense.

The only way looking at it from a skyrim/fallout perspective to provide a mod pack as I see it. Would be instead to provide a mod that was the merging of those other mods into one mega mod (not necessarily one esp/esm) then it would handle the dependency issue. (Which would probably not be a simple task)

 

Something that I can't imagine happening unless a bunch of authors got together to build a unifying experience.

 

Which has happened before Mods like FWE and Project Nevada. (They are more than what i could call a mod pack but provide what in think your looking for in one)

 

Which would pretty much be the same process your asking the modpack author to do, just a few extra steps but less potential errors. (not to say that it wont be error free.)

 

Other games that require third party tools to hook into or hijack them to mod I can't see being able to use this at all (some that require things like texmod)

 

All of this saying nothing of what it would take to get the permissions straightened out.

 

So, I guess my long rambling put short. While I don't see what your asking for as viable. I don't see how it can't exist in a different form and how doesn't already do so.

Forgive me, I have trouble with wording things.

 

I'm referring to what I believe is the reason for having a mod pack in the first place. Sometimes the end result can be achieved by different means and is better off being done so.

 

If, I'm understanding you simply want a easy way to get a completely overhauled game via mods with one click of a button (or something along those lines), or even just small things like weapon packs. Kind of like how curse or steam does it.

 

Their are many different technical issues with that as others have pointed out. TheDarkOne probably said it far better than I could in the reedit post linked in this form.

 

Mods for skyrim can be very complex. To say that the average user could just safely create a order install list and call it good seems hard to believe.

 

1. Mods can get deleted or specific versions can get deleted. If mods weren't so potentially complex as they are in fallout/skyrim I wouldn't think defaulting to the latest version being an issue since some of those mods could be frameworks. As a programmer I can tell you, new changes to frameworks can lead to compatibility issues with old work requiring either a copy of the old framework or updating the code base to match the new framework.

 

2. Many mods often need compatibility patches to work with one another. Merged/Bashed patches help the end user tackle this but are not always able to do the job. This list would need means of distributing custom patches to make the list function (which can go so large with scripts, meshes, esp's that they may as well be mods in them selves.)

Not to mention tackling balancing.

 

3. The end user would still need to acquire third party assets (ones not distributed through the nexus) like skse, texmod, ENB e.tc. and configure those themselves. (which even what i suggested won't handle).

 

Really the only way i see to handle the complexity of this is to just make one big mod with all that packaged and modified accordingly. Which, may end up being so complex it requires a team to do it (well to reasonably do it).

 

Now should a pack be so simple, that its just a collection of skins for weapons kind of like some of the creation club collections. Then i can see such a pack being easy to do but ordering may not be simple as it would have to account for other mods in the list as likely the user will have downloaded multiple packs. Ordering would probably have to occur after all mods in the LO are taken into account not just that of the tiny pack.

 

If mods could be guaranteed to be small and modular this would be a much easier task.

 

Now, I'm not arguing against packs in general i just don't think that would work as a delivery method. I'm also trying to say that i think what you want already exists just in a different form than expected.

 

Read right below Dark0ne's reddit post ... someone replied to him pretty much debunking his concern and your concern.

Mods updating is rarely ever big enough of a problem, for a mod update to break an entire mod pack. I don't even understand why people assume this would be the case.

 

Load order is not a problem because I am not even talking about allowing mod packs to be installed on top of one another. That would not work. That would be a mess.

 

As for bashed patches, just include it with the mod pack .. .is that a problem? If so, then that is just one area that will have to be done manually along with things like SKSE. No big deal.

I would assume including mesh patches and such with a mod pack wouldn't work and again that is fine. I am not trying to make the entire process automatic. I am only trying to put forth the idea that we should be automating the portions we are able to ... and believe it or not, a very large portion is capable of being automated.

 

A lot of what you listed has a solution or is just something that would need to be done manually. Again, not a big deal.

 

Edit:

Also a solution for Dark0ne's points.

1. Mod pack authors get notified when a mod version included in their pack is deleted allowing to keep up to date with their packs.

2. When a user installs a pack, if a mod version is not available, it will allow the user to select if they want to install the new version of just exclude the mod. These two option will work in majority of cases. There might be some manual work that needs to be done, but again ... I am not saying we need to automate everything 100%.

Edited by Brabbit1987
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In response to post #56571931.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #56570596.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

This site is irritating sometimes. I can write something and it doesn't actually post what I wrote only the quotes. >.>, Nexus forums is so buggy.

Anyway, I suggest you go a bit further back to read, because I don't think you understand what I was talking about at all. We are talking about a function for Vortex to be able to read a file that has the information how what mods to download and install and in what order to place them. Meaning no mods would be literally in the pack. They would be grabbed from the same location as if you did it manually.

What I went into in my last post was just examples of how far some people could go.

Edit: But ya, if a mod pack author wanted to unify some mods, they would likely need to work together with the mod authors for permissions and such and create a mod themselves to upload to the nexus. It's not something everyone could do.

In response to post #56561296.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

It has nothing to do with a universal truth. It's just a matter of common sense. I explained that not everyone cares so much about getting things perfectly the way they want them if it means being able to jump in the game a lot quicker.

Plus you get to try out new experiences you may not have thought of yourself. How do you know you don't like something till you try it ... right? That's one of the best things about Modded Minecraft. The experience you get from each mod pack can be vastly different. Something you will find is that some people go pretty far and create a pack that incorporates the mods so well together that unless you wanted to spend months doing that yourself, you would have never had that experience. Maybe even a mod developer wants to create a pack and make a mod specific to that pack in Skyrim to do the same sort of thing.

At the pack level, things can get very creative when you are trying to peice it all together. A good mod pack developer doesn't just throw everything together and call it a day. They go through extensive testing, balancing, making changes, fixing bugs, sometimes even developing mods themselves to include things that they might not be able to get elsewhere for what they want to do or to try and unify all the mods in a seamless expereince.

Also, you are another person who says they don't care if we get the feature. Why do you argue against people who want the feature then if you don't care?

In response to post #56544376. #56544626 is also a reply to the same post.


Ethreon wrote: *shrug* Empty people preach empty words. Let him do his kiddie crusade, ain't like that would suddenly change Dark0ne's mind.acidzebra wrote:

Is he still going? I put him on ignore after it became clear he has no idea about what making mods for either Skyrim or Minecraft entails or why the internals of one game would be more complex than the other, he just wants his one-click toys and to hell with what anyone else wants, even the creators of those toys. What a great member of the 'community'.

In his holy crusade he is so blind to think he has the only, universal, truth. You can show him practical, and even simple, examples related to this very specific game modding mechanics (an infinity of multiple choices always bound to an overriding/merging system) and he will answer taking in account other games. Well, what else to say? The holy crusader doesn't understand that, if devs implement a modpacks support system, it would change 0 in my, yours, and many others Skyrim modding/gaming experience so i really hope they will do it, even just for not reading any more nonsense.

The only way looking at it from a skyrim/fallout perspective to provide a mod pack as I see it. Would be instead to provide a mod that was the merging of those other mods into one mega mod (not necessarily one esp/esm) then it would handle the dependency issue. (Which would probably not be a simple task)

Something that I can't imagine happening unless a bunch of authors got together to build a unifying experience.

Which has happened before Mods like FWE and Project Nevada. (They are more than what i could call a mod pack but provide what in think your looking for in one)

Which would pretty much be the same process your asking the modpack author to do, just a few extra steps but less potential errors. (not to say that it wont be error free.)

Other games that require third party tools to hook into or hijack them to mod I can't see being able to use this at all (some that require things like texmod)

All of this saying nothing of what it would take to get the permissions straightened out.

So, I guess my long rambling put short. While I don't see what your asking for as viable. I don't see how it can't exist in a different form and how doesn't already do so.

Forgive me, I have trouble with wording things.

I'm referring to what I believe is the reason for having a mod pack in the first place. Sometimes the end result can be achieved by different means and is better off being done so.

If, I'm understanding you simply want a easy way to get a completely overhauled game via mods with one click of a button (or something along those lines), or even just small things like weapon packs. Kind of like how curse or steam does it.

Their are many different technical issues with that as others have pointed out. TheDarkOne probably said it far better than I could in the reedit post linked in this form.

Mods for skyrim can be very complex. To say that the average user could just safely create a order install list and call it good seems hard to believe.

1. Mods can get deleted or specific versions can get deleted. If mods weren't so potentially complex as they are in fallout/skyrim I wouldn't think defaulting to the latest version being an issue since some of those mods could be frameworks. As a programmer I can tell you, new changes to frameworks can lead to compatibility issues with old work requiring either a copy of the old framework or updating the code base to match the new framework.

2. Many mods often need compatibility patches to work with one another. Merged/Bashed patches help the end user tackle this but are not always able to do the job. This list would need means of distributing custom patches to make the list function (which can go so large with scripts, meshes, esp's that they may as well be mods in them selves.)
Not to mention tackling balancing.

3. The end user would still need to acquire third party assets (ones not distributed through the nexus) like skse, texmod, ENB e.tc. and configure those themselves. (which even what i suggested won't handle).

Really the only way i see to handle the complexity of this is to just make one big mod with all that packaged and modified accordingly. Which, may end up being so complex it requires a team to do it (well to reasonably do it).

Now should a pack be so simple, that its just a collection of skins for weapons kind of like some of the creation club collections. Then i can see such a pack being easy to do but ordering may not be simple as it would have to account for other mods in the list as likely the user will have downloaded multiple packs. Ordering would probably have to occur after all mods in the LO are taken into account not just that of the tiny pack.

If mods could be guaranteed to be small and modular this would be a much easier task.

Now, I'm not arguing against packs in general i just don't think that would work as a delivery method. I'm also trying to say that i think what you want already exists just in a different form than expected.

 

Read right below Dark0ne's reddit post ... someone replied to him pretty much debunking his concern and your concern.
Mods updating is rarely ever big enough of a problem, for a mod update to break an entire mod pack. I don't even understand why people assume this would be the case.

Load order is not a problem because I am not even talking about allowing mod packs to be installed on top of one another. That would not work. That would be a mess.

As for bashed patches, just include it with the mod pack .. .is that a problem? If so, then that is just one area that will have to be done manually along with things like SKSE. No big deal.
I would assume including mesh patches and such with a mod pack wouldn't work and again that is fine. I am not trying to make the entire process automatic. I am only trying to put forth the idea that we should be automating the portions we are able to ... and believe it or not, a very large portion is capable of being automated.

A lot of what you listed has a solution or is just something that would need to be done manually. Again, not a big deal.

Edit:
Also a solution for Dark0ne's points.
1. Mod pack authors get notified when a mod version included in their pack is deleted allowing to keep up to date with their packs.
2. When a user installs a pack, if a mod version is not available, it will allow the user to select if they want to install the new version of just exclude the mod. These two option will work in majority of cases. There might be some manual work that needs to be done, but again ... I am not saying we need to automate everything 100%.


How did they debunk that?

Lets say i have 3 mod x it requires a framework mod also included in the list. That framework gets removed from the nexus. Now my patch/s for my list is also invalid and needs to be recreated. Its the more complicated patches that will be the issue too not the automated merged/bashed ones.

Mods get abandoned and so do packs.

At what point has something been cludged together so much that where no better than when we started?

(in response to your points in the edit)
1. What good is a notification system, if the mod packs authors aren't maintaining and the same issue gets created that apparently existed years ago? When the they cant get support from the pack author they are going to go to the mod authors them selves. Whom i doubt are going to like that.

2. That would be fine, but if your going to force the user to also have to create new patches then the pack may as well not exist.

Also, as I said why create a automated system with a line feed when you can just release it as a merged work like people already do and use already automated mod management? If a dependency is removed that merged mod still remains in its working state.

No matter what the original mod authors needs give permission, get credit, and not be bombarded with pack specific issues. I would imagine a pack may even need specific instructions and documentation of its own.

It's not like any of this isn't something people haven't already been doing. Edited by AFKRoger
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In response to post #56571931. #56573056 is also a reply to the same post.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #56570596.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

This site is irritating sometimes. I can write something and it doesn't actually post what I wrote only the quotes. >.>, Nexus forums is so buggy.

Anyway, I suggest you go a bit further back to read, because I don't think you understand what I was talking about at all. We are talking about a function for Vortex to be able to read a file that has the information how what mods to download and install and in what order to place them. Meaning no mods would be literally in the pack. They would be grabbed from the same location as if you did it manually.

What I went into in my last post was just examples of how far some people could go.

Edit: But ya, if a mod pack author wanted to unify some mods, they would likely need to work together with the mod authors for permissions and such and create a mod themselves to upload to the nexus. It's not something everyone could do.

In response to post #56561296.


Brabbit1987 wrote:

It has nothing to do with a universal truth. It's just a matter of common sense. I explained that not everyone cares so much about getting things perfectly the way they want them if it means being able to jump in the game a lot quicker.

Plus you get to try out new experiences you may not have thought of yourself. How do you know you don't like something till you try it ... right? That's one of the best things about Modded Minecraft. The experience you get from each mod pack can be vastly different. Something you will find is that some people go pretty far and create a pack that incorporates the mods so well together that unless you wanted to spend months doing that yourself, you would have never had that experience. Maybe even a mod developer wants to create a pack and make a mod specific to that pack in Skyrim to do the same sort of thing.

At the pack level, things can get very creative when you are trying to peice it all together. A good mod pack developer doesn't just throw everything together and call it a day. They go through extensive testing, balancing, making changes, fixing bugs, sometimes even developing mods themselves to include things that they might not be able to get elsewhere for what they want to do or to try and unify all the mods in a seamless expereince.

Also, you are another person who says they don't care if we get the feature. Why do you argue against people who want the feature then if you don't care?

In response to post #56544376. #56544626 is also a reply to the same post.


Ethreon wrote: *shrug* Empty people preach empty words. Let him do his kiddie crusade, ain't like that would suddenly change Dark0ne's mind.acidzebra wrote:

Is he still going? I put him on ignore after it became clear he has no idea about what making mods for either Skyrim or Minecraft entails or why the internals of one game would be more complex than the other, he just wants his one-click toys and to hell with what anyone else wants, even the creators of those toys. What a great member of the 'community'.

In his holy crusade he is so blind to think he has the only, universal, truth. You can show him practical, and even simple, examples related to this very specific game modding mechanics (an infinity of multiple choices always bound to an overriding/merging system) and he will answer taking in account other games. Well, what else to say? The holy crusader doesn't understand that, if devs implement a modpacks support system, it would change 0 in my, yours, and many others Skyrim modding/gaming experience so i really hope they will do it, even just for not reading any more nonsense.

The only way looking at it from a skyrim/fallout perspective to provide a mod pack as I see it. Would be instead to provide a mod that was the merging of those other mods into one mega mod (not necessarily one esp/esm) then it would handle the dependency issue. (Which would probably not be a simple task)

Something that I can't imagine happening unless a bunch of authors got together to build a unifying experience.

Which has happened before Mods like FWE and Project Nevada. (They are more than what i could call a mod pack but provide what in think your looking for in one)

Which would pretty much be the same process your asking the modpack author to do, just a few extra steps but less potential errors. (not to say that it wont be error free.)

Other games that require third party tools to hook into or hijack them to mod I can't see being able to use this at all (some that require things like texmod)

All of this saying nothing of what it would take to get the permissions straightened out.

So, I guess my long rambling put short. While I don't see what your asking for as viable. I don't see how it can't exist in a different form and how doesn't already do so.

Forgive me, I have trouble with wording things.

I'm referring to what I believe is the reason for having a mod pack in the first place. Sometimes the end result can be achieved by different means and is better off being done so.

If, I'm understanding you simply want a easy way to get a completely overhauled game via mods with one click of a button (or something along those lines), or even just small things like weapon packs. Kind of like how curse or steam does it.

Their are many different technical issues with that as others have pointed out. TheDarkOne probably said it far better than I could in the reedit post linked in this form.

Mods for skyrim can be very complex. To say that the average user could just safely create a order install list and call it good seems hard to believe.

1. Mods can get deleted or specific versions can get deleted. If mods weren't so potentially complex as they are in fallout/skyrim I wouldn't think defaulting to the latest version being an issue since some of those mods could be frameworks. As a programmer I can tell you, new changes to frameworks can lead to compatibility issues with old work requiring either a copy of the old framework or updating the code base to match the new framework.

2. Many mods often need compatibility patches to work with one another. Merged/Bashed patches help the end user tackle this but are not always able to do the job. This list would need means of distributing custom patches to make the list function (which can go so large with scripts, meshes, esp's that they may as well be mods in them selves.)
Not to mention tackling balancing.

3. The end user would still need to acquire third party assets (ones not distributed through the nexus) like skse, texmod, ENB e.tc. and configure those themselves. (which even what i suggested won't handle).

Really the only way i see to handle the complexity of this is to just make one big mod with all that packaged and modified accordingly. Which, may end up being so complex it requires a team to do it (well to reasonably do it).

Now should a pack be so simple, that its just a collection of skins for weapons kind of like some of the creation club collections. Then i can see such a pack being easy to do but ordering may not be simple as it would have to account for other mods in the list as likely the user will have downloaded multiple packs. Ordering would probably have to occur after all mods in the LO are taken into account not just that of the tiny pack.

If mods could be guaranteed to be small and modular this would be a much easier task.

Now, I'm not arguing against packs in general i just don't think that would work as a delivery method. I'm also trying to say that i think what you want already exists just in a different form than expected.

 

Read right below Dark0ne's reddit post ... someone replied to him pretty much debunking his concern and your concern.
Mods updating is rarely ever big enough of a problem, for a mod update to break an entire mod pack. I don't even understand why people assume this would be the case.

Load order is not a problem because I am not even talking about allowing mod packs to be installed on top of one another. That would not work. That would be a mess.

As for bashed patches, just include it with the mod pack .. .is that a problem? If so, then that is just one area that will have to be done manually along with things like SKSE. No big deal.
I would assume including mesh patches and such with a mod pack wouldn't work and again that is fine. I am not trying to make the entire process automatic. I am only trying to put forth the idea that we should be automating the portions we are able to ... and believe it or not, a very large portion is capable of being automated.

A lot of what you listed has a solution or is just something that would need to be done manually. Again, not a big deal.

Edit:
Also a solution for Dark0ne's points.
1. Mod pack authors get notified when a mod version included in their pack is deleted allowing to keep up to date with their packs.
2. When a user installs a pack, if a mod version is not available, it will allow the user to select if they want to install the new version of just exclude the mod. These two option will work in majority of cases. There might be some manual work that needs to be done, but again ... I am not saying we need to automate everything 100%.

AFKRoger wrote: How did they debunk that?

Lets say i have 3 mod x it requires a framework mod also included in the list. That framework gets removed from the nexus. Now my patch/s for my list is also invalid and needs to be recreated. Its the more complicated patches that will be the issue too not the automated merged/bashed ones.

Mods get abandoned and so do packs.

At what point has something been cludged together so much that where no better than when we started?

(in response to your points in the edit)
1. What good is a notification system, if the mod packs authors aren't maintaining and the same issue gets created that apparently existed years ago? When the they cant get support from the pack author they are going to go to the mod authors them selves. Whom i doubt are going to like that.

2. That would be fine, but if your going to force the user to also have to create new patches then the pack may as well not exist.

Also, as I said why create a automated system with a line feed when you can just release it as a merged work like people already do and use already automated mod management? If a dependency is removed that merged mod still remains in its working state.

No matter what the original mod authors needs give permission, get credit, and not be bombarded with pack specific issues. I would imagine a pack may even need specific instructions and documentation of its own.

It's not like any of this isn't something people haven't already been doing.


@AFKRoger (Going to do it this way cause tired of my posts not posting correctly doing it through the forum XD)

He debunks Dark0nes point that it would be such a big issue.

How many mods need a framework and how often are those frameworks removed? Can you give me any examples where this has happened often enough to be a problem?
Also, yes packs can and will likely eventually get abandoned over time, especially the ones that are not updated often. But why is that a problem? There will also be popular packs that will be updated constantly and never be abandoned as long as whatever game it's for is not abandoned.

How is being able to install a ton of mods at once that have already been tested no better than installing them one at a time manually and testing them yourself? One can take a matter of minutes the other can take a matter of weeks. If the pack is outdated and broken you simply don't use it and you use one that isn't. The same applies to mods. I really have no clue what your argument is here. Where exactly is the problem? It's not like all mod packs are going to be outdated and unusable. The ones that don't work will be rated low and no one will use it. Just exactly the same way it would occur for a mod.

1. The mod authors have to deal with support already as it is. I don't see how it creates a problem if the person is coming from a mod pack created by another user or if they tried creating their own load order themselves. In fact, there really isn't any difference at all. Both situations would cause the same problem if they don't know enough even in the mod pack situation.

Also, you can't just assume the worst case scenario and use that as your argument. You are making assumptions that packs will be broken to an unmanageable degree and people will not be smart enough to just try a different pack.You are also making the assumption that no mod pack authors will update their packs when needed.

The same thing happens to individual mods. They become outdated or they no longer work. Do you think people still use them as often when this occurs? Are people really that stupid to you? If it doesn't work .. you don't use it. It's not complicated >.<.

2. So because a person has to do their own bashed patch .. the entire mod pack might as well not exist? I feel like you just tried to argue 2+2=1.
Ok ... let's do an experiment and I want you to do it because I think you will learn the most from doing it. Go to STEP and start downloading and installing them one by one, making sure to follow all the instructions exactly and time how long it takes you. No patching. Just the amount of time to download and install based on what it tells you to do. Then report back here and let us know how long it took you.

Now tell me, that having a single download that does all of that for you wouldn't save a heck of a lot of time.

You said you are a programmer right? You do know a lot of programs these days give you so many shortcuts, and what I mean by that is autocomplete and prediction to try and figure out what you are typing and want to do as you are typing it. You know why features like that are implemented into programs like Visual Studio? It's because it's faster. I don't know about you, but to other people how long something takes is a very big factor in whether or not they find something useful. Would you be happy if they discontinued that feature just because it could not predict everything you wanted? Scrap the time-saving idea because it's not perfect? You rather spend 2 hours instead of 1 hours because in the end a portion of it ... you had to do manually?

As for releasing it as a merged work, the issue is mod developers do not want their mods packaged together and reuploaded. This has quite literally been the whole reason why mod packs have been shunned here on Nexus. This means not everyone could do this. You are entirely missing the point. The whole idea is to make it so anyone can share their load order if they really wanted to. The way you are suggesting merged works makes it only available to mod developers who work together to do it and again that is missing the entire point of what a mod pack even is.

All I am suggesting is a mod list that Vortex can read and batch download the mods. You are trying to make it so much more complex than it actually is. This is literally no different than if someone gave me a list like STEP and I did it all manually. The only real difference is the time it saves, and it's a lot easier to do. I don't have to go reading a ton of pages on step telling me what portions to install, what portions to not install. What order they need to be. Also ... the other upside is ... doing your own load order means you have to test it out yourself and that means playing the game and possibly only finding out it's broken later in your game. While a mod pack may have already be extensively tested and so it's not something you have to worry about doing yourself. There are literally so many benefits to this whole idea of mod lists, I can't understand why anyone is against it. And I also don't understand why some think it's complicated and it would not work.

And if people are having issues and they are being rude to developers ... then ban them. There is no good reason to not put in a feature because you are worried some people might go to the mod develoeprs and be rude when sometihng is not working. You punish them, not everyone else.
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I have seen many mods get updated, that instantly become incompatible with save games with previous versions. Some of them are rather popular. (Modern Firearms for Fallout 4, for instance.....) Update one mod in the pack, without proper procedures, and your saves are instantly hosed.

 

Nothing has been debunked.

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I have seen many mods get updated, that instantly become incompatible with save games with previous versions. Some of them are rather popular. (Modern Firearms for Fallout 4, for instance.....) Update one mod in the pack, without proper procedures, and your saves are instantly hosed.

 

Nothing has been debunked.

 

You seem to be laboring under the impression that the client automatically updates, which they don't. You also seem to be implying that the best way to manage this system would be for the user to update mods individually instead of the pack author solving these problems and the user updating via the collection links. That's the current way of doing things and it's not a good system. As I mentioned before, if a working collection of mods can be created now within the current parameters then it is a system that can be automated. The same goes for updates.

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In response to post #56584131.


ErusPrime wrote:

I have seen many mods get updated, that instantly become incompatible with save games with previous versions. Some of them are rather popular. (Modern Firearms for Fallout 4, for instance.....) Update one mod in the pack, without proper procedures, and your saves are instantly hosed.

 

Nothing has been debunked.

 

You seem to be laboring under the impression that the client automatically updates, which they don't. You also seem to be implying that the best way to manage this system would be for the user to update mods individually instead of the pack author solving these problems and the user updating via the collection links. That's the current way of doing things and it's not a good system. As I mentioned before, if a working collection of mods can be created now within the current parameters then it is a system that can be automated. The same goes for updates.


Its not the act of auto updating that's the issue, its the people who go to get the mod pack later.
Hose-saving from updates like you say, probably really isn't an issue unless the vortex manager implements an auto updater.

Honestly, this is probably a point where the end user would have to just deal with it or wait for the mod pack author to update accordingly.

Largely, it probably would be fine, if the pack just pointed to then newer version. Unless something was drastically different or the mod was removed in its entirety. I would be more concerned of that happening with framework type mods rather than your standard typical mod.

The potential problems grow with the complexity of the mod pack it self.

Honestly, I don't think is a point to go against packs in general. Just how one would go about handling it can become a sketchy subject.
Simple Installation failure (with explained reasoning), is what i think would be the safest route. Edited by AFKRoger
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In response to @Brabbit1987

 

Try the new site layout just replace the WWW with rd for me it seems a lot more stable.

 

I'm gonna start cramming a lot into spoilers. I didn't realize how long what I've been typing is.

 

The worse case scenarios are good cases, at some point they will have to be dealt with do it now, not before it blows up in your face.

How, much can be reasonably dealt with or even matters is another story though.

 

But, I tend to be pessimistic so I probably did go to far.

 

I find it often good to

 

 

1. Think of the worst case scenario.

2. Plow through and try to find solutions to the complications that arise.

3. What you have left you have to decide whether to endeavor find a solution or call it an acceptable loss (or what ever it would be)

or reduce what your are trying to achieve to prevent that problem.

 

Now, I'm trying to go on what I'm guessing what your wanted end result it.

My interpretation of that can be flawed.

 

 

 

Back to the original points

 

 

 

If you felt, what I was saying before was more complex than it needed to be just skip this part and ill say no more.

 

1. People in general don't like to have to support making something do or be a part of something it was never intended to. Or deal with the aggressive backlash from when they don't.

 

I can't say they actually tried it, but if it where as simple as just banning every bad individual i would think they would have tried that.

 

2. The issue isn't the bashed/merged patch, but the custom patches needing to be remade if needed.

 

3. Yes i've made those and when those shortcuts have failed even if from user error. I've received the requests to fix it and have wondered if it was every worth doing to begin. Sometimes i have mad the problem worse, because the end user didin't understand what they where doing. I had removed the need to do that causing problems later on when they did need to know.

 

Now that's not a valid reason against this in of it self. But i feel that is an issue some people have with this idea.

 

4. Yes and I think No. Obviously mod authors don't want there mods to be re-uploaded with out their permissions mod pack or no. I don' t think that is everyone's only issue.

 

 

 

 

Now, yes the scenario I was giving is probably more complex than what would typically occur.

 

If you want, to keep it to smaller packs (less complex), but as complex as what is on s.t.e.p.

 

 

This is not an argument list rather what i think would be a todo list. As well as a list of what im not sure how this would properly handle

 

1. List any instructions required prior to mod installation.

* If they exist. This phase may not even be needed.

But I would imagine things, like pointing to f4se for manual installation would be required. potential .ini edits.

If things are tailor-able how to tailor

 

2. Begin the download phase

 

* Login - this would be needed for permissions plus mods of a larger size

* If mod no longer exists, fail throw exception (handle accordingly)

* If user is banned from mod, fail throw exception (handle accordingly)

* integrate installers into mod manager for next phase.

 

3. Begin the installation phase

* Run each installer, in order indicated by pack. As to handle overwrites. (That will not guarantee mod order, that comes later)

 

With fomods and Bain,

I'm not sure one could automate those, maybe wrap it in a window with instructions on what to click? (not even sure you could do that)

 

4. Depending on how its handled in the automation..

* Run each patcher (assuming they where acquired by the mod list), wait for it to exit. Each patcher should handle user interaction on its own already regardless of the pack. More complex pathers may need to occur in the last phase.

 

5. Order the mod based on the order indicated by the pack.

This step may be mute but i would imagine its possible that the mods may need to be ordered differently than the order in which they installed.

 

6. Remind the user to do what ever it is they normally need to do for the given game after the steps

 

Technically if you do throw version control aside, I don't see how that would be unreasonable.

At the same time, I'm sure there is something I've missed.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how that could properly handle the following if it could.

 

 

 

1. The authors rights (in away that they would deem acceptable, yet provide you want you want)

2. Authors credit (more in the form of endorsements and recognition)

 

I suppose, it would be fair to say if the author doesn't want it to be a part of packs they just simply don't provide the permissions.

 

But, if you can't find a solution that would be acceptable by enough of the authors. The whole endeavor would have nothing to show for it.

It may even cause unwanted backlash, as it is a rather touchy subject (understandably)

 

The only people capable, of actually coming up with that solution would probably be the nexus site and the mod authors.

There is only so much speculation the end user can do.

 

Honestly, after typing this and re-reading the redit post, I wonder if this would even be possible at all with out some shift in the modding community it self.

 

 

 

Edited by AFKRoger
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In response to post #56581841.


HeyYou wrote:

I have seen many mods get updated, that instantly become incompatible with save games with previous versions. Some of them are rather popular. (Modern Firearms for Fallout 4, for instance.....) Update one mod in the pack, without proper procedures, and your saves are instantly hosed.

 

Nothing has been debunked.


People do not update their mods individually after downloading a mod pack. That is up to the mod pack author, not the users using it. Also, unless a person runs into a bug that needs to be fixed, I would say there is very little reason for them to update anything in the middle of a playthrough.

Last but not least, this isn't a unique situation to mod packs, this is a situation with mods in general. Even if a person didn't use a mod pack and had that mod, they would run into the very same problem if they tried to update it.
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In response to post #56586296.


AFKRoger wrote: In response to @Brabbit1987

Try the new site layout just replace the WWW with rd for me it seems a lot more stable.

I'm gonna start cramming a lot into spoilers. I didn't realize how long what I've been typing is.

The worse case scenarios are good cases, at some point they will have to be dealt with do it now, not before it blows up in your face.
How, much can be reasonably dealt with or even matters is another story though.

But, I tend to be pessimistic so I probably did go to far.

I find it often good to


1. Think of the worst case scenario.
2. Plow through and try to find solutions to the complications that arise.
3. What you have left you have to decide whether to endeavor find a solution or call it an acceptable loss (or what ever it would be)
or reduce what your are trying to achieve to prevent that problem.

Now, I'm trying to go on what I'm guessing what your wanted end result it.
My interpretation of that can be flawed.



Back to the original points



If you felt, what I was saying before was more complex than it needed to be just skip this part and ill say no more.

1. People in general don't like to have to support making something do or be a part of something it was never intended to. Or deal with the aggressive backlash from when they don't.

I can't say they actually tried it, but if it where as simple as just banning every bad individual i would think they would have tried that.

2. The issue isn't the bashed/merged patch, but the custom patches needing to be remade if needed.

3. Yes i've made those and when those shortcuts have failed even if from user error. I've received the requests to fix it and have wondered if it was every worth doing to begin. Sometimes i have mad the problem worse, because the end user didin't understand what they where doing. I had removed the need to do that causing problems later on when they did need to know.

Now that's not a valid reason against this in of it self. But i feel that is an issue some people have with this idea.

4. Yes and I think No. Obviously mod authors don't want there mods to be re-uploaded with out their permissions mod pack or no. I don' t think that is everyone's only issue.



Now, yes the scenario I was giving is probably more complex than what would typically occur.

If you want, to keep it to smaller packs (less complex), but as complex as what is on s.t.e.p.


This is not an argument list rather what i think would be a todo list. As well as a list of what im not sure how this would properly handle

1. List any instructions required prior to mod installation.
* If they exist. This phase may not even be needed.
But I would imagine things, like pointing to f4se for manual installation would be required. potential .ini edits.
If things are tailor-able how to tailor

2. Begin the download phase

* Login - this would be needed for permissions plus mods of a larger size
* If mod no longer exists, fail throw exception (handle accordingly)
* If user is banned from mod, fail throw exception (handle accordingly)
* integrate installers into mod manager for next phase.

3. Begin the installation phase
* Run each installer, in order indicated by pack. As to handle overwrites. (That will not guarantee mod order, that comes later)

With fomods and Bain,
I'm not sure one could automate those, maybe wrap it in a window with instructions on what to click? (not even sure you could do that)

4. Depending on how its handled in the automation..
* Run each patcher (assuming they where acquired by the mod list), wait for it to exit. Each patcher should handle user interaction on its own already regardless of the pack. More complex pathers may need to occur in the last phase.

5. Order the mod based on the order indicated by the pack.
This step may be mute but i would imagine its possible that the mods may need to be ordered differently than the order in which they installed.

6. Remind the user to do what ever it is they normally need to do for the given game after the steps

Technically if you do throw version control aside, I don't see how that would be unreasonable.
At the same time, I'm sure there is something I've missed.



I'm not sure how that could properly handle the following if it could.



1. The authors rights (in away that they would deem acceptable, yet provide you want you want)
2. Authors credit (more in the form of endorsements and recognition)

I suppose, it would be fair to say if the author doesn't want it to be a part of packs they just simply don't provide the permissions.

But, if you can't find a solution that would be acceptable by enough of the authors. The whole endeavor would have nothing to show for it.
It may even cause unwanted backlash, as it is a rather touchy subject (understandably)

The only people capable, of actually coming up with that solution would probably be the nexus site and the mod authors.
There is only so much speculation the end user can do.

Honestly, after typing this and re-reading the redit post, I wonder if this would even be possible at all with out some shift in the modding community it self.


You say deal with them now not later and let it blow up in your face like as if there is a way to prevent it. There isn't. Some mod packs will eventually just not work. I would say it's a rare occurrence, but the same goes for mods. What exactly do you expect to be done here?

Thinking of the worst case scenario is fine, but it's important to remember it's the worst case, not the common case.
If it's so rare, you don't have to worry about the problems because the solution is easy. Use a different mod pack.
You just allow it to exist, just how you allow it to exist with mods. The Nexus doesn't take down mods that break people games in the long term. We just expect users to understand that modding a game can mean you come across issues and that they should be careful. Always make it a habit to check the comments.

The mods wouldn't be doing anything they are not meant to do. That is the issue you seem to be confused about. The mods are not included in the pack, they are only being linked to the official download. That means if something is broken with that mod it is literally no different than if a person grabbed it manually and created their own load order. If there is a problem in the mod pack, that means anyone else could have run into this problem. It's not the fault of the mod pack. Remember, mod authors have full control over their files here. If there is a compatibility issue between two mods, it's not going to make a difference if a person got it from a mod pack or if they put it together themselves. The problem would still exist. This actually has very little to do with mod packs.

The only argument that works here is that it means the mod pack users don't have a chance to read the front page of the mod that tells you it's not compatible. But sorry to say, that's under the assumption that everyone reads the front page anyway, which isn't true. So this likely isn't going to change anything because the people who don't know what is wrong are the type of people who would have run into this issue, to begin with.

But by the same token, you have to consider how many people will be using a mod pack that does work, and that is going to drastically reduce the amount of support because now a lot of things are just going to work for people instead of them trying and failing doing it themselves.

Also, the issue in the past had to do with mod pack aurthors using old versions of mods which created a big problem where bugs would exist that had already been fixed. This would not happen with the system we are talking about.

Not sure what custom patches you are even talking about or why they would have to be remade.

Your list of what would need to be done, I pretty much agree with it all.

The list below that, I don't know what author rights are being violated.
Author credit, personally I think complaints about not getting endorsements is childish. I get we all want to be validated and feel like what we are doing means something, but I don't think that is a very good reason to not do something that would be useful for everyone. It's literally just a number. You would be better off keeping track active installs as that will give you a clearer idea of how many people use a mod, and if they are using it ... it likely means they like it. Also, if you allow endorsements right on Vortex, then this wouldn't even be a problem.

The backlash is not understandable. It's an overreaction. Out of all the modding communities, I am part of ... literally, the nexus is the worst when it comes to mod authors freaking out about the idea of mod packs. This is the only community I know of where mod authors take down their mods to make a statement. This is the only community where mod authors are put before the users by such a large degree that the mod authors practically run the site itself and can typically even be rude to users with little to no punishment (Not always the case, but pretty often). It's the only modding community I know of where you are not allowed to give negative feedback without the risk of being banned. The mod authors are pretty much coddled here.

And yes, you are right. The only way this would be possible is for the above to change. Sadly the Nexus isn't the type of place that embodies the idea of change.

You have place like steam workshop that allows for a mod list btw, and it tend to work just fine.
Edited by Brabbit1987
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