An update on Vortex development

[Tannin42]

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223, #54947753, #54954958, #54955858, #54958068, #54976953, #54985023, #54987183, #54988083, #54995008, #54997683, #54998783, #54998978, #55009093, #55013128, #55013173, #55015168, #55019678, #55020183, #55028028, #55030383 are all replies on the same post.

MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

SharraShimada wrote:

In response to post #54935243. #54935523, #54947223 are all replies on the same post.

MysteriousGuy wrote: "Not long now!"

We are talking 2 months minimum here. It was months in development already. Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

So after months of waiting for something, you cant even provide a screenshot to public? Really?

fluxxdog wrote: Yes really.

lunsmann wrote: Perhaps it was purely due to MO only needing to support ONE game. Vortex (like NMM) will be supporting many different games.

All I want is for FNIS to install and work out of the box (like it does in NMM). MO is a pain in the arse with FNIS, and abandoned almost straight away.

Tannin made MO alone back in the days, when he had the time. And it was only 32 bit. Developing such a tool with full 64 bit support is a completely different thing.
Thats why MO2 never was what Tannin was expecting from it.

And now, it takes time, because its a team. Tanning cant work all alone, doing things like he wants them to be all by himself. Everything has to be first an idea, moves to a meeting, and later there will be a consensus. Such things take time... a lot of time.
And sometimes you try something, test it, and as a result, you throw it into the dumpster, because it wont work.

Software-development is time consuming as hell. Its not just coding. In fact, thats, what take the leas amount of the time. Its everying around the lines of code.

MysteriousGuy wrote: Seeing what Tannin was able to do with MO makes me fully believe he is more then capable to easily create amazing mod manager. Its complexity or 64-bit doesn't matter so much - he is the man for the job.

What doesn't feel right is nexus itself. Being game modding site you would expect they would promote and share information about their main modding tool - Vortex.
Instead it was kept in secrecy for months. Check news how many times they shared any information about Vortex this year. Then check how many of those posts actually speak about Vortex. Most of them are just recruitment posts.
Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign) or development was facing issues leading to delay (no info about why everything is so delayed because nexus is all shiny and beautiful).

Ignoring what it feels like and back to what we do know is - it's over a year now that Tannin was recruited for this job. That's one year of people waiting for new mod manager or at least some information about its functionality and looks. A week ago new site design was announced and then they said we are finally getting an update about vortex this week.
This week they tell us we will get nothing (not even a screenshot because imagine if people say they don't like it, and everyone has to like it when its finished) but we have to wait for 2 months now to get something.

Do we get an update in 2 months that now we have to wait a year for an update?

Dark0ne wrote:

Makes me wonder how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone, but its not the case now when he has whole team around him.

When Tannin first released MO it was simply the VFS system with a text file on how to enable it. The MO you see today took him over 5 years of work to get where it is now. It's stupid to even compare the two.

Would you rather wait 5 years? Hmm.

Seems focus was moved more to the side projects (Web site redesign)

The website isn't a side-project, it's the main project. Without the website, there is no Vortex, but without Vortex (or NMM) there's still a website. Ergo, Vortex would be the "side project".

However, development of the website and development of Vortex are parallel, rather than one delaying the other. Tannin works on Vortex, the web development team work on the website, and the only time they intersect is when Tannin needs more functionality in the web API which the web developers need to do.

MysteriousGuy wrote: I would wait 5 years knowing that it will take 5 years for it to be finished rather than check for updates regularly only to get a notice that i have to wait for a notice that will tell me to wait for another notice.

Balx2 wrote: Maybe NMM isn't a site you should be visiting then. It appears you did not even read the entire news post, highly doubt you have bothered to ever read any of them.

These things take time, we have received updates as the team felt they had something worth saying and everything has been explained in detail in the news posts.

MysteriousGuy wrote: @ Balx2

Oh really then when you have all the information please tell me how will new mod manager function or look like?
How will you activate and install mods and where?
Will it be just one button on the left like NMM, will there be check mark to easily deactivate it like in MO?
Will Vortex have that annoying web page window loading every time you click on any mod like in NMM or will it have nice and clean interface like MO that actually lets you do something with that mod?
Will it be huge UI with few buttons and useless mod categories like NMM or will it let you actualy see important things like mod order and load order like in MO?
How will mod creators work with Vortex? Will they run 3rd party tools from Vortex or outside?

Go ahead i have time.

cyrusmagnus wrote: Your complaint is odd. Honestly, it feels like you're just disappointed Tannin didn't finish MO2 and are trying to lash out and be deceptively destructive of this project.

Your questions are logical, but missing a critical point: software development is hard enough by yourself, but exponentially compounded in difficulty by every additional voice you add to the mix.

So they have Tannin, Dark0ne, the team, and 30 people looking at it. That means if person number 28 has an idea of how something could look/be better, and they voice it, they then have to query 30+ other people on if they agree or disagree. Let's say 25% of them agree, does that mean it should change? Is it majority rule? Does Tannin have the final say? Does Dark0ne?

Why on Earth do you think they'd want to open that process up to thousands of people before they've even decided in house, for sure, what they want to do? In this update Dark0ne specifically pointed out that they aren't even finalized. They're close, but close is meaningless in development. You never know what will happen next.

Again, your questions are logical, but you don't deserve to ask them. You're not paying for this product. You are not a client. You're just some lucky guy that gets to have all this free stuff plopped in their lap for nothing.

If it takes 2 months or 2 years, whatever gets made has nothing to do with your opinion or entitled demands for information. You want your own mod managing software? Learn to code and make it yourself, and stop pestering the people who are actually doing the work with your whining.

calscks wrote: >how was Tannin able to build fully functional mod organizer in such a short time when he was working all alone
*checks initial commits on github*
*2013*
hmm.jpg

i'd've agreed upon your point on showing a few sneak peeks regarding to Vortex, but it's completely optional for whether developers wanting to show it or not. software development works internally, even if it's "agile" enough only selected users shall provide the initial feedback to how a software should or shouldn't work during the development cycle. Tannin has enough credits -- you're completely disregarding the whole development team. @cyrusmagnus describes you well -- entitled individual who doesn't know how real software engineering works, but i can tell it looks as real as people who have spent so much time developing COMMUNITY software whilst getting lashed by take-for-granted users who insistently demand things even before release because we can already see it here.

Kedavix wrote: Well said, cyrusmagnus. Seriously, well said! From what I can see, he's not even a supporter of the site.

MysteriousGuy wrote: Do i have to be a supporter of the site to be right?

I know how to code and I'm making my own programs that i need for work so all of your comments about how I don't know software development are just random imaginations.

From start I never said anything against Tannin or development team. I was saying that he was obviously delayed by something and i have an issue with nexus not sharing info on why or showing any development progress.

People are waiting for this more then they are waiting for new site redesign and that's a fact even if you don't agree.

I'm being attacked for saying what everyone is thinking so i hope it will be your way - i hope we wont see any info until next year. (You don't want to see it, right?)

Ethreon wrote: You have to be right to be right. Your supporter status is irrelevant, so is whatever programs you claim to do.

Dark0ne wrote: From the announcement article for Vortex:

How long have you been working on this? How long is it going to take?

Tannin officially started working for us at the beginning of August. We’re determined to get it right this time, so we’ve been spending a lot of time getting everything written down into proper documentation. Actual programming work has now begun on the project and while I cannot give you any specific timeframes as to how long it’ll take before we get things out, you can rest assured it’s being worked on.

From the Q&A in May:

Robin: Moving forward, what are your release plans for Vortex? Will there be an alpha? What time scales are we talking here?

Tannin: Giving concrete dates is always difficult because one almost always underestimates the amount of work required to polish stuff towards the end.

My current plan is to have an early alpha build in the hands of a limited group of test users within a month, maybe 6 weeks.

Depending on their feedback we should expect somewhere between 1-3 months to fix bugs after which I think we can release a public alpha.

So right now we're about 3 months "behind" Tannin's very rough estimates and ultimately will be 5 months behind if we release the Alpha in January. That time has been spent by Tannin optimising things, fixing bugs from the testing group and working on the UI and UX.

Honestly...you need to chill and remove the stick from wherever it's lodged. If you honestly work in software development, you would know that time estimates are just that. Estimates.

calscks wrote: the problem doesn't lie on your viewpoints -- instead it's the way you deliver your opinions which caused people to "attack?" you. glimpse back to how you reply such as "go ahead i have time" is an open invitation to criticising you even if you didn't mean it...

i don't support dismissing your opinion even if you aren't a supporter or premium, but we'd refute an opinion if it's more or less unfitting in this case. one year of development isn't even long especially when it's an in-house development, and giving out sneak peeks is completely optional. making/writing your own programme doesn't satisfy any conditions of being one complete software development cycle, so most arguments about you not knowing how a real software engineering works is completely relevant. yes you didn't say anything against tannin, you merely gave too much credits to him instead of the whole development team. to sum up you just thought developing a software is as magical as could be magically done by a single person in a short period of time, moreover when the software itself would involve connection to servers such as app and file server while supporting another dozens of games, then proceed to say that vortex development is delayed due to "unnecessary redesign" while the site owner has already cleared it up by saying those are handled by 2 different development teams...really makes me wonder.

michealclark18 wrote: No cygus wanted to belittle him

michealclark18 wrote: If a person voices their opinion, you don't have to be an a**hole to them Cyrus, because you don't like what they said. It isn't your job, to chew people out.

Tannin42 wrote: > *checks initial commits on github*
> *2013*

MO was closed source initially, then on sourceforge before moving to github.
Development on MO started somewhere beginning of 2011 and at that point the vfs library already existed.

MysteriousGuy wrote: @Ethreon
You are irrelevant.

@Dark0ne
I'm sorry if you feel there is lodged stick somewhere. That was not my intention. This will obviously not produce any effect with words only so to show what I'm talking about from start ill give constructive example. You can check for Citra development site. There you can see monthly updates that show major changes to the program. Not all of them are amazingly attractive but they show progress is being made. Things that make people happy to wait for the final version.

Now before i continue lets go to the fact that im being attacked for being impatient with development cycle. I fully understand that software development takes time. I also fully understand that you wont develop something you already have experience with longer then you did before. If Vortex was taking 5 years or more to being done i would seriously doubt Tannin and his knowledge. I do not. There is also full time working on something or working on your spare time. Again things have to be done faster when working full time. That's a fact and not my personal opinion. Then there is complexity and bugs that create development delays. Now you shared information that it is 5 months delayed. If things were perfect we would have Alpha already 3 months ago. Nothing in the world is perfect so delays are also understandable.

Now lets continue with comparison between Citra and Nexus. Citra has monthly updates (ill ignore github with daily updates). Nexus has "Tannin is recruited", "development started", "people being recruited", "Alpha with no ETA" "Check our new web site you will get Vortex info in a week" and "Sorry no info again wait for something in 2 months" notices. Did you really have absolutely nothing to write about Vortex during this months of development? There is absolutely no chance that Tannin didn't produce anything for you to show (This is why i said how can it take so long for him to develop vortex because we are shown nothing at all). Now when you do have something you wont share even a screenshot.
Again im not talking about Tannin here or how long it takes to develop but about nexus and its non existing Vortex promotion. If someone says there is one then look at Citra on how its done.

Site Redesign vs Vortex - ask people what they want more. Other one is side project.

@Tannin
Good luck with development.

Dark0ne wrote: I appreciate you've changed your tone a bit to be less inflammatory.

Unfortunately, your comparison with Citra is not a fair one. Citra is software that was first released in 2015 and was in development from 2014. Their updates are now for new functionality they are adding to an already released piece of software, rather than talking about things pre-release.

Vortex has not been released as it is not in an Alpha releasable format yet, so anything we talk about is still in a state of flux and possible to change in one way or another. Hence why answering lots of questions and publicly talking about every small part of Vortex would be massively counter-intuitive for us (and a big time sink, time which would be much better spent actually working on Vortex).

If, in three years time, we're not following a more open rhetoric with users in regards to the development of Vortex, then you can compare Citra to Vortex and explain how you'd prefer we handled it.

d0mini wrote: This is reminding me strongly of Asterix and Obelix comics. You’re like their chief, in charge over everyone, but you still happily dive into all the brawls :p

You’re doing a great job Dark0ne and team, people think you owe them more than you do. You just keep swinging those punches.

rmarinoff wrote: It just amazes me on how much negativity comes from people who don't know what they are talking about, or those who pretend that they know what they are talking about or should know what they are talking about but apparently don't know what they are talking about. I am in full support of the developer's decisions on little information and updates during this process. Without a release, anything and everything can change. Once the information is released to the public, those changes are harder to justify. I am a developer, and I see the difference between working on a project with a small team, by myself, and with a larger team. This size team is large. This is not a small project. With the size of the team and the fact that they are still working on this software, I do expect an epic job done. With how the nexus is ran, and with the commitment the known members of the team has shown to the modding scene, I believe that these expectations will be met. I am a member, just like you MysteriousGuy. I am a developer, just like you claim. It is cool that we have a totally different perspective on the subject, but it is a shame that you feel that yours must be correct. But then, that is how I feel about this comment. I just wanted to add my small voice in this topic, express my support for the teams, and look forward to continued support back and forth within the community.

> What doesn't feel right is nexus itself. Being game modding site you would expect they would promote and share information about their main modding tool - Vortex.

This is mostly my fault because I'm always more comfortable actually working on the project than writing about it. Look at MO, I wasn't exactly doing a lot of community work there either.

> Again things have to be done faster when working full time. That's a fact and not my personal opinion.

It is, it's just not as publicly visible.

> Now lets continue with comparison between Citra and Nexus. Citra has monthly updates (ill ignore github with daily updates).

Citra was started (on github) in 2013. They didn't start twittering until late 2015, they started their blog in 2016. So it would seem they too got some work done before talking about their project...

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #55032088.

leo2d wrote: Thats nice news. I'm sure everyone would be less mad if you had given us more regular updates on the progress.

I'm sure some people would have been less mad, and more people would have been more mad at the answers given and/or demand more answers to more ambiguous questions!

It'd be swings and roundabouts. Edited November 7, 2017 by Dark0ne

[MikhailScott]

Glad to hear of the update. I do hope and wish that Vortex will accurately monitor mod updates as NMM misses about 30% of the mods I downloaded from the Nexus. Could we get some screenshots to see what it will look like as a Christmas present?

[Risakisa]

Cheers for the update.

 

I am particularly fond of how you said "a January release", without specifying which January. ;)

[Risakisa]

In response to post #55008708. #55008758, #55013093 are all replies on the same post.

is33d34dp30ple wrote: Thank you guys for the update! I cant wait to see Vortex when it becomes officially available!

is33d34dp30ple wrote: Maybe we could try a closed alpha shortly before release for premium members? ;) ;)

Ethreon wrote: There's already an alpha release and test cycle in place. It's even said in the article. Then the release will be public, not for the premium only.

That's actually not a bad idea IMO. Give premium members a month or three to find some more bugs and give feedback, and then once they can be sure that the potentially tens of thousands of regular users won't fill the forums with known issues and nonsense, they can let them test it out. :)

[Risakisa]

In response to post #55032088. #55040268 is also a reply to the same post.

leo2d wrote: Thats nice news. I'm sure everyone would be less mad if you had given us more regular updates on the progress.

Dark0ne wrote: I'm sure some people would have been less mad, and more people would have been more mad at the answers given and/or demand more answers to more ambiguous questions!

It'd be swings and roundabouts.

They'd be even less mad if they'd never said anything at all until public alpha/beta.

Quite frankly, we gain nothing from knowing about this being in development. No matter how much we want it, it's not going to be done faster by us knowing anything about it.

And what sort of updates would we get? "Well, we tried doing such-and-such in this way, but decided to do so-and-so instead, but then realized that stuff and things and so went back to such-and-such but changed it in so-and-so way" etc.

Might as well wait for the finished/near-finished product if you're not an alpha/beta tester.

[Ethreon]

In response to post #55008708. #55008758, #55013093, #55040788 are all replies on the same post.

is33d34dp30ple wrote: Thank you guys for the update! I cant wait to see Vortex when it becomes officially available!

is33d34dp30ple wrote: Maybe we could try a closed alpha shortly before release for premium members? ;) ;)

Ethreon wrote: There's already an alpha release and test cycle in place. It's even said in the article. Then the release will be public, not for the premium only.

Risakisa wrote: That's actually not a bad idea IMO. Give premium members a month or three to find some more bugs and give feedback, and then once they can be sure that the potentially tens of thousands of regular users won't fill the forums with known issues and nonsense, they can let them test it out. :)

For what purpose? If it's closed testing it's reserved for hand picked individuals who know what they have to do. If it's open to public it should be opened to everyone, not just a few.

[BorderXer]

Differences in Testing between Alpha & Beta

What do they do ? :

Alpha
Improve the quality of the product & ensure the beta readiness.

Beta
Improve the quality of the product, integrate customer input,

& ensure the release readiness.
_______________________________________________________________

When do they happen ? :
Alpha
Toward the end of development process.
Beta
Just prior to launch. Pre- launch is also called Gamma phase.

Sometimes, still next, is : Delta phase.

_______________________________________________________________
How long ? :
Alpha
Usually very long with many iterations.

It can take 3 to 5 X's more than Beta. ( or > )
Beta
Usually for a few weeks, sometimes up to month when there's

few major iterations left in Beta.
( N.b., Projects can vary greatly )
_______________________________________________________________
Who Monitors the process ? :
Alpha
A separate QA/testing lead team.
Beta
Usually involves product marketing, support, quality team.
_______________________________________________________________
Who participates ? :
Alpha
Performed by test engineers, employees.
Beta
Performed by a group real users.
_______________________________________________________________
What testers expect :
Alpha
Plenty of bugs, crashes, missing features etc.
Beta
Bugs, suggestions, new feature requests etc.
_______________________________________________________________
What testers achieve :
Alpha
For successful alpha testing it is key to work on

defining the alpha testing benchmark & monitor it closely.
Beta
Team brings on it's imagination.

Ideas flow to enhance the product functionality.
_______________________________________________________________
What happens next ? :
Alpha
Beta Testing
Beta
Gamma Testing

To add a little more light on the subject

Before we get our grubby paws on a software title,

there are four stages of testing & development that

the production teams goes through. They are :

( in some cases, some steps are not used )

( 1 ) Pre-Alpha

aka development releases,

nightly builds.

( the files in any 4 of these categories may only be

available to select individuals who are given

accounts that req matching IP &-/-or password )

______________________________________________

( 2 ) Alpha

______________________________________________

( 3 ) Beta

______________________________________________

( 4 ) Release Candidate

a.k.a Gamma

( sometimes followed by Delta )

===============================

Then, finally, we can download the Full Release ( a.k.a the GOLD phase )

( free / shareware / coffeeware )

or, decide if we will

Buy it, or, enjoy the pre-order.

( if that's the way you roll, baby ! )

[demonofsarila]

Now long now? Wireframes are supposed to be before serious development. In my experience being a UX designer who comes in after major dev time has already been sunk into the project just makes everything a pain. But if Tannin is a better dev than the ones I've worked with in the past, then maybe it will be fine.

 

Also the explanation of the virtualization thing make no sense to me. I understand what hard links are in windows, but if NMM is actually using them I don't see any proof of that. It seems to keep 3 copies of mods: zip'ed archive it downloaded, extracted original, and data folder copy for the game to use (and me to modify if I choose). If this is incorrect, please explain how it actually works because I prefer to know that.

 

While it would be cool for a mod manager to keep changes to esp files if they were "over written" then that "over write" was removed, it's more important to keep a backup of the original download file locally. You never know when a mod author will just remove their file/s, so a local backup is the only way to ensure you can always go back to the original. I often edit mods I've downloaded, and sometimes I royally mess everything up. Though a more stable way to keep edits users make to mods would be a very welcome thing. Some mods I've made the same edits to many many times because I lose those changes when I go through major mod re-configurations. Heck, if Vortex keep a copy of the original file/s, it could compare them to what's installed and tell me rather I've edited the mod (for me that would be super useful). Though from what I've read, one of the promised features for Vortex was real mod profile management that actually works. That would be cool too, most cuz overhaul mods.

Edited November 7, 2017 by demonofsarila

[demonofsarila]

In response to post #55008708. #55008758, #55013093, #55040788, #55041363 are all replies on the same post.

is33d34dp30ple wrote: Thank you guys for the update! I cant wait to see Vortex when it becomes officially available!

is33d34dp30ple wrote: Maybe we could try a closed alpha shortly before release for premium members? ;) ;)

Ethreon wrote: There's already an alpha release and test cycle in place. It's even said in the article. Then the release will be public, not for the premium only.

Risakisa wrote: That's actually not a bad idea IMO. Give premium members a month or three to find some more bugs and give feedback, and then once they can be sure that the potentially tens of thousands of regular users won't fill the forums with known issues and nonsense, they can let them test it out. :)

Ethreon wrote: For what purpose? If it's closed testing it's reserved for hand picked individuals who know what they have to do. If it's open to public it should be opened to everyone, not just a few.

Many sites will allow earlier access to up and coming features for paid members before allowing access for free members, as an incentive to get people to pay. It also is a way to get general user feedback while cutting down on duplicate reports simply because there's only a fraction of the user base trying it out (thus reducing the time it takes for the site owners to go through all the bug reports, complaining because it's different, and whatnot).

Not saying I agree with the practice, but there's sites that do that sort of thing all the time. Edited November 7, 2017 by demonofsarila