Managing the Load Order...

[blitzen]

 

 

i'd love to know where you saw statements that claim vortex is perfect. honestly, i would.

 

You should learn to read more carefully.

 

 

 

 

and you, my trolling, shitposting friend should learn to write more carefully, except if you did that, you'd not have a purpose to post here (which, come to think of it, you don't actually have a reason to post here except to do you usual and shitpost).

 

 

 

It was more informational than a request for assistance, or I would have posted in the support forum. There seemed to be some statements implying that everything regarding Vortex is perfect and all problems are user error, which struck me as unrealistic.

 

As I said, show me the posts that imply what you have written to be fact. But, honestly, don't bother, you can't because as you know all too well, they don't exist. It's a strawman argument style that you use consistently any time you come on here. It's easy to see, and easy to predict the outcome. I should tell you, because it amuses me to do so, I remarked to someone earlier today what would happen when you turned up, and to no-one's actual surprise, the posts and replies happened exactly as I predicted.

 

You're not lightning, you're predictable.

 

 

That is some real fancy projection you are doing there. And this is a total troll post. Try to stay on topic.

Edited June 26, 2019 by blitzen

[AugustaCalidia]

@blitzen

 

 

Why do I have to explain this to you?

Because you did not originally present your "statistical datum" as a contribution to trend analysis but as a specific counter example to "some statements [seemingly] implying that everything regarding Vortex is perfect and all problems are user error." At this point it ceased to be a data point in a statistical sense.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Augusta Calidia

[blitzen]

@blitzen

 

 

Why do I have to explain this to you?

Because you did not present your "statistical datum" as a contribution to trend analysis. You presented it as a specific counter example to "some statements [seemingly] implying that everything regarding Vortex is perfect and all problems are user error." At that point it ceased to be a data point in a statistical sense.

 

The datum was meaningful in the context of a topic that concerns load order issues. because it concerned a load order issue. Are you suggesting that this topic is intended to collect a random sample?

 

Perhaps you can provide some useful information that would benefit the topic. What is the difference between the rules created during conflict resolution and the user-defined rules created ad-hoc? In this particular situation, the former did not work and the latter did. Why?

 

Also, since some of you appear to be obsessed with my statement here is ONE of the things I read which collectively gave the impression to a casual observer that people were being far too defensive of the application, and too harsh and dismissive to some of the users;

 

"It's not faulty software though, I'm using just fine, and so are plenty of others.

The only people who believe Vortex is "faulty" are the people who refuse to get rid of the bad habits that NMM has forced on them."

 

This statement is utter nonsense in every possible way. Any individual with slight knowledge of software and statistics would find it laughable. "Oh, it works fine for these people, so it must be fine for everyone under every circumstance and all problems are user errors". Seriously? Now tell me I had the wrong impression.

 

And again, this is not to say that any particular problem was or was not user error, since that is something I couldn't possibly know from the information provided. It's the attitude that concerned me. This is not conducive to a free and open discussion. Sure, there are people that don't provide enough information to recreate a problem or, in some cases, even identify precisely what the problem is, but that doesn't justify some of the hostility and insults I've read in this topic. That is something you would expect from children.

Edited June 26, 2019 by blitzen

[Tannin42]

@Tannin42 Fair points. When I say it was informational, it was prompted by a statement in the topic along the lines of "well a lot of people aren't having issues with load order so it must be user error", which may actually turn out to be true for that case, but isn't logical, since there is no way of really knowing. I was unappreciative of the cursory dismissal of someone's problem, so my intent was simply to add this as an additional data point. My particular issue may, in fact, be a bug, but I would prefer to investigate it a bit and also see if this is happening anywhere else before screaming "BUG!". My immediate goal is really to get a basic, modded installation working, and apply a number of custom edits. In summary, I'm just adding a data point to the discussion. That is all. I had no goals beyond that at this point. Unfortunately, the circus showed up and started their act, which I've already seen.

 

I'm spending the largest part of my time atm (for months now) fixing bugs so obviously I'm aware there can still be issues. Software is never perfect.

However, there is also a lot of misunderstanding and general ill will regarding the way we do load ordering so those working on Vortex and those that like how it works will be a bit wary of claims that it's broken, the majority of reports claiming that did turn out to be user error and we can't spend hours investigating every case of someone blaming problems on the software, it would just be too "expensive".

Hence there isn't really going to be any real consequence to such reports from the official end unless you lay out the case in a way where we can verify there was a bug, anything else can do very little but frustrate people.

For me personally, reading such a report one of two things may happen: Either I ignore it because it sounds fishy or I sleep worse a couple of nights because it doesn't sound fishy but I can't do anything about it.

Neither gets us closer to a better software.

 

If you want to investigate this, don't hesitate to report an issue through the feedback system or github, maybe we have some pointers on what to look into, but it can't be in this thread because I don't want to derail it any more.

 

 

 

Uh, I do have an actual question about this, and it's relevant to the discussion, so perhaps a reply is warranted? When referring to "rule-based" load ordering shortcomings, are people distinguishing between rules specified at the time of conflict resolution, and "user-defined" rules that are added separately? I had a problem with a rule created during conflict resolution. I don't know about the user-defined rule that I added yet. I used the standalone version of LOOT for quite a while and added many rules over time, and did not see any problems with it.

 

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. When you say LOOT, that refers to the tool used to do the load order plugins (Plugins tab), it uses an algorithm, a master list and user-defined rules/groups to order plugins, there is no visible conflict resolution in Vortex. The conflict detection between plugins happens under the hood in LOOT.

 

Conflicts you see in Vortex on the mods tab are completely separate things, they are about files overwriting each other. They are also resolved through rules but those rules only affect the order files get replaced in, they don't affect the _load order_, which is the order the game loads the plugins (esp/esm)

[blitzen]

So when you establish an ordering rule during conflict resolution to load one archive before or after another archive, it's not also creating a LOOT rule to ensure that the plugin files are loaded in the same order as the archives. That does answer my question. Thanks.

Edited June 27, 2019 by blitzen

[AugustaCalidia]

So when you establish an ordering rule during conflict resolution to load one archive before or after another archive, it's not also creating a LOOT rule to ensure that the plugin files are loaded in the same order as the archives. That does answer my question. Thanks.

Precisely. You've hit the nail on the head! :thumbsup:

Edited June 27, 2019 by Augusta Calidia

[HadToRegister]

 

So when you establish an ordering rule during conflict resolution to load one archive before or after another archive, it's not also creating a LOOT rule to ensure that the plugin files are loaded in the same order as the archives. That does answer my question. Thanks.

Precisely. You've hit the nail on the head! :thumbsup:

 

 

A prime example of "User Error" :wink:

[Zanderat]

However, you can report to the LOOT team and if valid they can create a rule for LOOT. But it must be a global rule, not just a special case rule.

[ForNextDay]

my speech. makes it easy to understand one look, one click to use. says a mod-author: must load after xyz, just drag & drop. visual confirmation, I want to see and not think (rules). not everyone wants to get 100% familiar with Vortex. usability first, then possibilities.

[rmm200]

Tannin's last two paragraphs may be / should be in the WIKI.

There is a lot of confusion between mod ordering and plugin ordering.

Also people not realizing Loot is built-in "under the covers".