Simple manual load ordering plz

[UrizenDe]

To be blunt - Prove it.

There is no easy way for me to install 75 or 100 mods and see that every time I allow Vortex to sort that the order is the same. That's why I've been trying to change this discussion to one that asks for this type of feature.

Admittedly there are mods that simply would not care if their order changed and other mods wouldn't care either as long as it didn't change their order or the order of mods related to it. Again this is not about locking their index - it's about knowing if they have moved or not.

Once I start a playthrough I need to know if anything changes. That can happen if I update mods or add in new mods. The way I add in new mods is first knowing that the mod is minor like texture mod that happens to have a plugin (some do) - I don't want Vortex to sort this mod up in the middle - I want to add it to the very bottom so no other mod is going to move. I set its group to my custom Load Last group and hit Sort. In NMM that's it - I know not run LOOT again, there is no need. When I do start a new playthrough later, I'll remove my custom rule or group on that mod and let everything sort like normal.

Having a visual indication after sorting in Vortex that shows whether plugins moved after sorting would be useful in this case. Just to confirm nothing moved that should not have.

 

 

Okay I think I wrote what I wanted to write.

BTW Tannin - Thank you for being willing to listen - Vortex is really coming along nicely.

LOOT sorts mods in their correct order where its absolutely necessary. If Mod A and Mod B don´t conflict, it´s irrelevant where they are loaded. If Mod B needs to load after Mod A, LOOT does exaclty that. I think that´s what Tannin meant to say. It produces a coherent LO where needed.

[HeyYou]

Nevermind. Not worth the effort. Post deleted.

Edited September 2, 2018 by HeyYou

[HadToRegister]

 

No, that's just not true. The only reason why a mod would cause problems if moved, if it used it's own mod-index internally. Which is a *VERY* bad idea. And actually would break sooner or later anyway, no matter if you use manual or automatic sorting.

 

Orphaned scripts are only caused by removing a plugin or if a plugin is updated and the update doesn't use a script any longer. The position (mod-index) of a mod doesn't matter for the scripts to be assigned to the correct mod.

 

 

You have a mod installed with scripts at mod index 2E

Everything in that mod now starts with 2E, , items, weapons, armor that the scripts access with a 2E prefix.

You sort the load order and now the mod sits at Mod Index 5F, now the scripts in the savegame that were accessing 2E, are left to fend for themselves, while the newly sorted mod starts accessing 5F.

You now have orphaned scripts still trying to find the 2E resources they were accessing because the mod was moved to a different place in the load order.

[HadToRegister]

Also, Vortex has the ability to recover the load order from a save file, so that should fix this worry neatly as well.

 

I didn't know this!

 

Is this an automatic thing, or a manual thing, if so, PLEASE tell me how to do that, because I have a long night ahead of me of sorting my load order, and just in case, I want to be able to restore things quickly.

I've cloned my profile, and my just try it on the clone, but I have hard-writes to my esps, because I manually edit them

[Grestorn]

 

 

No, that's just not true. The only reason why a mod would cause problems if moved, if it used it's own mod-index internally. Which is a *VERY* bad idea. And actually would break sooner or later anyway, no matter if you use manual or automatic sorting.

 

Orphaned scripts are only caused by removing a plugin or if a plugin is updated and the update doesn't use a script any longer. The position (mod-index) of a mod doesn't matter for the scripts to be assigned to the correct mod.

 

 

You have a mod installed with scripts at mod index 2E

Everything in that mod now starts with 2E, , items, weapons, armor that the scripts access with a 2E prefix.

You sort the load order and now the mod sits at Mod Index 5F, now the scripts in the savegame that were accessing 2E, are left to fend for themselves, while the newly sorted mod starts accessing 5F.

You now have orphaned scripts still trying to find the 2E resources they were accessing because the mod was moved to a different place in the load order.

 

 

Script don't access items with a fixed mod-ID. They include a dependency and use the dynamically returned plugin-id. And they do that even if a script is actively running and the order is changed while it's active.

 

And items in your save-game are automatically adapted as well.

 

Otherwise the whole system would break immediately, as soon as you change the slightest bit in the sort order. And that's just not the case.

[Rattledagger]

 

You have a mod installed with scripts at mod index 2E

Everything in that mod now starts with 2E, , items, weapons, armor that the scripts access with a 2E prefix.

You sort the load order and now the mod sits at Mod Index 5F, now the scripts in the savegame that were accessing 2E, are left to fend for themselves, while the newly sorted mod starts accessing 5F.

You now have orphaned scripts still trying to find the 2E resources they were accessing because the mod was moved to a different place in the load order.

 

If this is a general problem with any mods using scripts (and possibly other things), it means if you add an esm to the load-order you've got a FUBAR load-order regardless of what mod manager you're using, since adding an esm forces all the esp to move down one location in the load-order.

 

So if this is a problem, something like:

"If # savefiles > 0 lock current profile, making it impossible to add/remove/update any mods and impossible to enable/disable/re-order any plugins".

 

If on the other hand it's only a handful of (badly behaving) mods that cares if they suddenly is moved, as long as this move doesn't suddenly load mod before any really conflicting mods, making a list of these handful of mods, and if possible fix these mods, is the way to go.

 

Even if you add a new esp to the bottom of the load-order not all mods works correctly without starting a new game, since if the save-game includes a parameter the newly-added mod is changing the changed parameter won't be used unless you start a new game. So newly-added mods not working until start a new game will happen regardless of re-ordering or not. The only "fix" for this would to again lock the profile and making it impossible to add/remove/update anything.

 

So, pick one of these:

 

1: Most esp-mods are broken if you add a new esm, since this forces all esp to move down one spot in the load-order.

2: Only a handful of esp-mods are broken if they are moved down one spot. For 99.99% of mods it doesn't matter if they're moved up/down in the load-order.

3: No esp-mods are broken if they are moved up/down in the load-order, as long as they're not loaded before any plugins they're actually conflicting with.

 

If you picked option 1 or 2, how would manual drag-and-drop fix things being broken, especially in case it's the first mod after all the esm that gets broken by adding an extra esm?

 

If you picked option 3, since plugins getting another load-index doesn't matter, why is manual drag-and-drop necessary?

[HeyYou]

 

 

 

No, that's just not true. The only reason why a mod would cause problems if moved, if it used it's own mod-index internally. Which is a *VERY* bad idea. And actually would break sooner or later anyway, no matter if you use manual or automatic sorting.

 

Orphaned scripts are only caused by removing a plugin or if a plugin is updated and the update doesn't use a script any longer. The position (mod-index) of a mod doesn't matter for the scripts to be assigned to the correct mod.

 

 

You have a mod installed with scripts at mod index 2E

Everything in that mod now starts with 2E, , items, weapons, armor that the scripts access with a 2E prefix.

You sort the load order and now the mod sits at Mod Index 5F, now the scripts in the savegame that were accessing 2E, are left to fend for themselves, while the newly sorted mod starts accessing 5F.

You now have orphaned scripts still trying to find the 2E resources they were accessing because the mod was moved to a different place in the load order.

 

 

Script don't access items with a fixed mod-ID. They include a dependency and use the dynamically returned plugin-id. And they do that even if a script is actively running and the order is changed while it's active.

 

And items in your save-game are automatically adapted as well.

 

Otherwise the whole system would break immediately, as soon as you change the slightest bit in the sort order. And that's just not the case.

 

Shades of Morrowind. :)

[UrizenDe]

Script don't access items with a fixed mod-ID. They include a dependency and use the dynamically returned plugin-id. And they do that even if a script is actively running and the order is changed while it's active.

 

And items in your save-game are automatically adapted as well.

 

Otherwise the whole system would break immediately, as soon as you change the slightest bit in the sort order. And that's just not the case.

If that were the case, then why does every mod author that has been around for quite some time caution against removal of mods halfway through a playthrough? Just for the fun of it? And why did the guy responsible for Papyrus say the same? Because maybe there is truth to it. The fact of the matter is: Even mods with a dedicated uninstall script leave scriptcorpses behind. Otherwise there would be no need for savegamecleaners.

[HadToRegister]

One last thing. READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS, this is a reasonable post if you read THE ENTIRE THING.
People seems to want to lock on one or two sentences of a post and cherry-pick the crap out of it.
We have enough of that in the media and Politicians.

I'm tired of getting painted with an overgeneralized brush and getting lumped into this fantasy group of people who are "Set in their ways", "Too stubborn to change", "Refuse to try new things" etc.
As a person who worked in a medical lab, the last thing we do is say "Well we've always done it this way", and refuse to accept new things.
That would be career suicide.
So to imply that because I'm asking for manual sorting, that I "want to do everything the old way" etc is incorrect, and blatantly wrong in so many ways.

It's unfair and disingenuous, and is a tactic that the media and politicians use to dismiss another person's opinion by making it seem like their request is a petty and childish thing.
NOT SO.
Preamble done...

-ANYWAY-

As I have said numerous times, (And keep getting ignored on that), I am quite happy with Vortex, my load order is great, "BUT/HOWEVER" (is where people stop listening and get defensive, and I understand WHY, because everybody stop listening when either of those two words get used, because it completely negates all of what was previously said before the "BUT/HOWEVER, (Basic Management training)), BUT/HOWEVER, I would still like the option of manually sorting things, not ALL THE THINGS, but things.

 

NOW, if people are still reading this, and have not just "shut-down" and are already firing off an angry response because they've incorrectly jumped to the wrong conclusion about me yet again, or are searching my post history in order to "weaponize it" then stop, and KEEP READING....and click PLAY on the video below to listen to music (while you're reading the rest of my post) that fits my reaction to using the "Manage Rules" interface part of Vortex tonight

Tonight I just sorted sorted my load order with Vortex, using just the "Manage Rules" interface in the plugins tab, and it was WONDERFUL (The drop downs need to widen in order to accommodate mod names, and this feature REALLY needs to be included on the MODS tab as well, and the ability FILTER Enabled/Disabled Plugins, on the Plugins Tab would also be a God-Send) this part of the interface (That I just learned about, (I always saw the button, and opened it a couple of times, but I didn't know it had the power it had, (No documentation))), made it so easy to set up my load order, that I'm going to exclusively use THAT, instead of the "Drag-Pick Load Before/After" method, or the "Click checkbox Scroll Click Other Checkbox pick Before or After" method.
The Mange Rules dialog lets you set up everything by just using the drop down, typing in the MOD Name to filter the list, use the other Drop Down to pick the Second Mod, and then Pick LOAD AFTER, and the <--- ---> button lets you swap the mods if it's MOD2 you want to load after MOD 1 instead, then click ADD and you're done.

I am ELATED with this feature, and as I said, I will be using this exclusively because I find this methods of sorting in Vortex far easier than the other ways.

So, if someone wants to attack me for still asking for manual sorting, go ahead, but that only means you didn't read my ENTIRE post, because I'm just asking for it as a useful addition to the tools already available while showing people that I have absolutely no problem with using the new features of Vortex, Hell, I would've used them back in June when I first installed Vortex if there had been some type of guide that explained these things did, which would probably have cut down on the number of "HOW DO I?" threads in the first place.
It's one thing to want to see how intuitive THE INTERFACE IS by just posting Vortex and seeing how people manage to navigate it, it's another completely to not provide any Clue to users how the FEATURES WORK, and What they Do, and What you can do with them.

Anyway, that's my spiel for tonight.

[AugustaCalidia]

@HadToRegister. I liszt you as a very helpful and honorable participant on these forums. You ask important, timely, and thoughtful questions. You persist in asking them until you get an adequate response. You are willing to help other forum members by sharing your own knowledge and experience. And finally, you express appreciation for useful information and insights from other forum members. I'm glad you're here.