Simple manual load ordering plz

[Tannin42]

Yes, set up your rules. There's the rub. How do you know which rules you need to set up? By trying some out, and seeing if it works the way you want it to? That is exactly what I want to be able to do by simply dragging one mod to a new position, and test to see if it works there. Sure, I could 'set a rule' that should put it in the correct spot, but, then we have the example from previously in this thread, where a member specified a mod to load after another one, and instead of moving the mod in question, vortex moved the OTHER mod before the mod he was playin' with. (the logic behind that method simply escapes me.)

a) how is this so hard to understand? ABCD, ABDC, ACDB, ACBD, ADCB, ADBC, BACD, BCAD, BADC, BCAD - all of these fulfill the rule "D after A". If that's your only rule/dependency they are all valid orders. LOOT can choose any one of these. The rule "D after A" says nothing about B and C, whether those are before A, after D or between the two is "undefined" and thus pretty much random. It doesn't matter how the plugins were ordered before, nor does the order in which you set up the rules matter.

b) Maybe just try Vortex? loot groups lets you move a mod to the end of the list very easily and index lock lets you very quickly put a single mod at any index you want, if testing is all you want.

 

There is a direct quote from the Loot Readme file. It is not a be-all, end-all solution. There are cases where users are required to intervene. Sure, it's DAMN good, but, not 100%.

Which is why there are userlists and vortex lets you edit those, user intervention is possible with vortex just fine.

 

So you write software for the lowest common denominator, but, leave out features advanced users want.

 

Insisting on direct drag&drop load ordering does not make you an advanced user, that's like saying "advanced woodcutters use an axe, chainsaws are for newbies".

Calling yourself an advanced user also doesn't make you one, it just makes you an arrogant user.

Vortex works fine both for beginners and advanced users.

That's not to say that preferring a different UI is "wrong" but claiming Vortex can't do what you asked for at all is wrong.

[UrizenDe]

In general there's little need to try and error. There aren't so many mods that are conflicting. And as I'm always saying, if two mods are conflicting and there's no compatibility patch out there, the best course of action is to merge them or to create a patch yourself.

 

As a matter of fact, in those (rare) cases, the load order suggested by LOOT and its master list (i.e. the community!) is most likely the best one anyway.

 

You make it sound like it would be necessary to swap mods up and down all the time. But that's just not the case.

So, I should trust LOOT to know my tastes? I should trust an algorithm to know what I like? There are shittons of mods on the Nexus right now that overlap in their records and where the more reasonable mod author will say to put the mod where the user wants to put it. And descriptions/screenshots rarely can convey what a feature actually looks and/or feels like ingame, with the latter especially because ENBs/ReShade can have major effects on visuals. Let´s say you have 3 of these, that´s 6 possible combinations these can be in. Vortex is inconvenient in these cases. It´s not unusable, it´s not bad at it, just inconvenient.

 

For the record, I have uninstalled NMM, because Vortex suits my need far better.

[Grestorn]

So, I should trust LOOT to know my tastes? I should trust an algorithm to know what I like?

 

You're not trusting an algorithm, you're trusting the community. And if the community has a different taste than you have, overrule them with a custom rule of yours.

 

By the way, you're trusting an algorithm in one way or the other practically all the time. Especially when playing a game. Or using a computer in general. I don't understand why people seem to have a problem with that, only because it becomes apparent in a certain area.

 

As long as I stay in control, I don't mind trusting an algorithm. And especially in this very case, the algorithm of sorting is well documented, mainly defined by rules based on the community, and on top, I can tell it what to do if I want to. What more is there to ask?

[HadToRegister]

And if the community has a different taste than you have, overrule them with a custom rule of yours.

 

 

Impossible to do if those rules are in the masterlist and already attributed to a mod.

Making those decisions pre-made for me as to how my load order should be sorted.

 

[UrizenDe]

 

So, I should trust LOOT to know my tastes? I should trust an algorithm to know what I like?

You're not trusting an algorithm, you're trusting the community. And if the community has a different taste than you have, overrule them with a custom rule of yours.

 

How do you think LOOT sorts plugins for which it has no rules? For plugins for which there are no entries in the masterlist? Willynilly? Or maybe with the help of an algorithm? That´s why the devs of LOOT say that it is only the beginning to a working loadorder. And you shouldn´t take working as meaning only stable. It also means that the game looks and behaves to your wishes. Hard to do when a visual change of mod a, which you want, is overridden by mod b, that you didn´t know overrides the change. And all because mod b has one record less than mod a.

 

I´m arguing that Vortexs method of sorting plugins is inconvenient when you experiment with loadorders, which sooner or later you will always have to do.

 

 

And if the community has a different taste than you have, overrule them with a custom rule of yours.

 

 

Impossible to do if those rules are in the masterlist and already attributed to a mod.

Making those decisions pre-made for me as to how my load order should be sorted.

 

Mods that change the visuals and are down to personal preference are rarely found in the masterlist and if they are, it´s for a very good reason ( Like Realistic Water Two loading after mods that make edits to cells affected by it, visually and functionally breaking RWT ). But let´s say you have two mods that amongst other things change the bridge crossing the White River near White River Watch, if thats the only conflict between the two, you will always have free reign over them.

[Grestorn]

 

And if the community has a different taste than you have, overrule them with a custom rule of yours.

Impossible to do if those rules are in the masterlist and already attributed to a mod.

Making those decisions pre-made for me as to how my load order should be sorted.

 

 

The case you stumbled over was a DEPENDENCY. You cannot overrule a dependency. Not even with manual ordering (misordering a mod with a dependency, i.e. having the plugin a mod depends on lower in the list, will just result in the plugin not being loaded at all).

 

 

How do you think LOOT sorts plugins for which it has no rules? For plugins for which there are no entries in the masterlist? Willynilly? Or maybe with the help of an algorithm? That´s why the devs of LOOT say that it is only the beginning to a working loadorder. And you shouldn´t take working as meaning only stable. It also means that the game looks and behaves to your wishes. Hard to do when a visual change of mod a, which you want, is overridden by mod b, that you didn´t know overrides the change. And all because mod b has one record less than mod a.

 

I´m arguing that Vortexs method of sorting plugins is inconvenient when you experiment with loadorders, which sooner or later you will always have to do.

I disagree. The easiest way to try certain things is to use groups. If you want to get a given plugin to the bottom to see the outcome, you just have a give it a "Load Late" group, and that's about it.

 

Use your tools, work with them, not against them.

[Arthmoor]

I have evolved my thoughts on this. To me, drag and drop is a complete non-issue. The rules are working fro me. But if I did want to drag and drop, all would I need to do is turn off auto-sorting and do my drag and drop in WB. Vortex won't mess with your LO, as long as auto-sort is off.

And in having to resort to using Wrye Bash to accomplish this, you have invalidated any reason to be using Vortex for games Wrye Bash supports. So why bother? You already have the feature you seek in Wrye Bash.

 

 

Gee, now where have I heard argument methods like this before..... oh right. 2nd grade!

 

 

An upgrade from 1st grade, where you point fingers at people and make things up, eh! Brilliant.

 

We've all been there, where someone has misconstrued something someone else has said on the internet. I won't hold it against you.

 

Ah, the old "NO U!" meme in disguise. I'm sure we could go at this all day, but why?

 

For the record, I did not misconstrue anything. Your employee has simply been so stubborn he doesn't see his own preconceptions as a problem and would rather ague with everyone about it for 90 pages. We're up to 21. Got a long way to go I think.

 

In the end, doesn't affect me. Wrye Bash does all I ever need done and if I should desire playing with LOOT, I can do so without being forced to stick to it despite the LOOT authors themselves saying in their own documentation that it is NOT the final solution to load order.

 

 

 

How do you think LOOT sorts plugins for which it has no rules? For plugins for which there are no entries in the masterlist? Willynilly? Or maybe with the help of an algorithm? That´s why the devs of LOOT say that it is only the beginning to a working loadorder. And you shouldn´t take working as meaning only stable. It also means that the game looks and behaves to your wishes. Hard to do when a visual change of mod a, which you want, is overridden by mod b, that you didn´t know overrides the change. And all because mod b has one record less than mod a.

This.

 

LOOT was conceived because of shortcomings in how BOSS had to operate to fulfill its goals at the time. Someone else mentioned it, not in the mood to quote it all back for them, but if BOSS had no masterlist entry, a mod would be dumped at the end of the load order. So what did the user then need to do? Move it manually and then pester the BOSS devs to do something about it. Thousands of mods made this situation untenable.

 

Now we have tool devs seriously trying to bring those days back by insisting that something LOOT gets wrong be added to the masterlist to correct it. OK. Fine. Who is qualified to assess this? The user? The mod author? Vortex devs? LOOT devs? The answer is nobody. Imposing one group's decision on the other groups is just plain arrogant. The solution is staring everyone in the face. Let the user move it manually and be done with it.

 

The addition of user based rules for LOOT has not simplified any of this. It's made it orders of magnitude more complex. The longer this is allowed to go on, the more users will start asking about it. Mod authors are not the ones who should get stuck dealing with the consequences of bad design decisions. I for one will simply tell people not to use Vortex at all if it starts coming to that.

[Grestorn]

Maybe, Arthmoor, you're the one to be stubborn? Ever thought of that?

 

Especially since you never even TRIED to use the tool like it was supposed to (and neither has your comrade "Hey You"), I can't really take you seriously. Especially since your arguments are not rational to me.

 

I don't know why you hate rules so much. Especially since they're mostly community made. A mod author could also add his own understanding of the correct load order into the LOOT masterlist, if he has a good reason for a certain order. Isn't that the perfect thing for any mod author? Less hassle and support problems because user mess up the load order themselves?

 

 

With one thing you're right, though: Using an external tool to mess with the load order because Vortex doesn't allow to do it with drag-and-drop (you'd have to click on the "group" selector instead) is really a bad idea.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

The case you stumbled over was a DEPENDENCY. You cannot overrule a dependency. Not even with manual ordering (misordering a mod with a dependency, i.e. having the plugin a mod depends on lower in the list, will just result in the plugin not being loaded at all).

 

 

The case I found, was a mod that had 4 different RULES ADDED TO IT BY THE MASTERLIST

IT WASN'T A DEPENDENCY LIKE IN FO4EDIT

 

I'm getting REALLY tired of you putting words in my mouth and Reading EVERYTHING I post Incorrectly.

 

YES I'm Using CAPS the Way everybody seems to think they work, for this particular response.

 

Because I'm sick of my responses being "interpreted" incorrectly, therefore wasting MORE POSTS, and MORE space in this thread because I have to RE-EXPLAIN myself after one person purposely misrepresents what I'm trying to say.

 

 

 

[Grestorn]

Actually, this is what YOU wrote in the other thread:

 

"*Think I found it, the Better Settlers replacement patch from Unique NPCS - Creatures and Monsters has Better Settlers.esp as a master, and Better Settlers CCA pack has Eli_Armour_Compendium as a master"

 

How else can this interpreted please? Defining "a Master" is exactly what a dependency in the way you define them in FOEDIT is. Nothing else.

 

I don't try to consciously misunderstand you. Maybe I do, maybe I don't, but I always try to argue rationally. Which is not easy with you, because you always lose it right away if someone writes something you don't like.

 

 

By the way, I still don't understand why you're so surprised that there are groups in Loot and that they can be used to achieve most of the things you were looking for in the first place. Because I've been suggesting looking into groups to you many days ago already. But you chose not to read my postings, obviously.