Trump

[Mktavish]

Here are some important pieces of information to aid this discussion.

 

America is a signatory to the 1951 Convention on Refugees and the following elements and protocols are defined in that Convention.

• /snip

 

You don't seriously think those bullet points are going to aid a "Discussion" do you ?

It is pretty much the equivalent of building a wall (of words) or line in the sand that is not to be crossed.

 

And it is only from a mere 70 years ago , that is then stated as if was carved in a couple rocks back in 1500 BCE .

(at least with the seems to me method reading your tone)

 

With the laws of physics giving clear evidence , that it would eventually fail. Because more people being more connected continuing , means the individual life and right to it , is worth less to society as a whole.

It is just not possible to accommodate every person and point of view equally in one box.

 

At some point the aspirational attempt to do so becomes a detriment to the mechanism which facilitates equity in the first place.

[Mktavish]

No, the wall won't solve the problem. But, it will go a long way toward reducing it.

 

How long has the US been building border security ? What is the chances of it really making a dent , and at what cost ?

Is it a real thing that is possible , or just a pipe dream placebo.

Do you really see it as a secure investment ?

 

 

Eliminating the reasons that folks come here illegally is NOT our problem. It is not our job to solve other countries problems.

 

Apparently it is OUR problem , because we live on the same side of the border , and CANNOT agree.

Are you saying with a wall in place ... we will now start to agree ?

Laissez-faire capitalism , is the problem of why people come here.

 

The US has a proven track record of being absolutely terrible at Nation Building.

 

Are you sure we have given it enough of an effort ? Or even the right effort ?

 

We don't have the money, the military, the political will, or citizen backing for any more of it. We need to address our problems right here at home, including illegal immigration, and get OURSELVES back on track. Once that happens, maybe THEN we can turn our eyes outward again, and see what we can do for those less fortunate.

 

If we are ready to drop 30 billion plus for a wall . How do we not have the money to invest more wisely in curbing the problem. And you know as well as I do , the motivation is at least 50% to poke our political enemies in the eye. Both ways ... So if we have the money for eye poking , we certainly have the money for eye patches ;P

 

But, ARE we going to get ourselves back on track? Looking at the current situation, I don't see it happening any time soon. The political divide is just too great, and it is getting wider. With the current direction the democrats are heading, all they are going to accomplish is to further divide the people. We are heading for a fall, and its gonna be a big one. Things simply cannot continue as they are. Something is going to give, and when it does, the entire world will be affected. I fully expect to see civil war in the US again, within the next 20 years. If not sooner.

 

It's gona be sooner than 20 years for sure if the next prez elect isn't near a 60% win ... AND , the centrists don't step up shaking the hands of their counter parts across the isle in favor of letting the extremes causing us to circle the cesspool toilet bowl. But I think for that to happen ... we will need a serious look at separation for a reality check on just what exactly we would be losing by letting it go all the way to armed conflict. Which I'm pretty sure most people thinking it's a good idea ... would get over it in about a week faced with the realities of it.

 

And I take it back that I don't see me and you ever seeing eye to eye. I'd be willing to bet we could see eye to eye on a great many things if given the chance ;)

[Deleted67195711User]

 

Here are some important pieces of information to aid this discussion.

 

America is a signatory to the 1951 Convention on Refugees and the following elements and protocols are defined in that Convention.

• /snip

 

You don't seriously think those bullet points are going to aid a "Discussion" do you ?

It is pretty much the equivalent of building a wall (of words) or line in the sand that is not to be crossed.

 

And it is only from a mere 70 years ago , that is then stated as if was carved in a couple rocks back in 1500 BCE .

(at least with the seems to me method reading your tone)

 

With the laws of physics giving clear evidence , that it would eventually fail. Because more people being more connected continuing , means the individual life and right to it , is worth less to society as a whole.

It is just not possible to accommodate every person and point of view equally in one box.

 

At some point the aspirational attempt to do so becomes a detriment to the mechanism which facilitates equity in the first place.

 

 

The thing about American Laws and Treaties is that they remain in effect until someone repeals them. So although the treaty was ratified my America in 1954, it is still in effect in 2019, Sixty-five years later. And until the treaty is repealed, it is, for all practical purposes, etched in stone. :D

 

Those bullet points are fact and law. I presented them to summarize the contents of the Treaty and the impact which that treaty has on the discussion. Nothing more and nothing less. It is always better to deal with the facts, don't you think?

 

Facts have no tone, and I presented the facts without judgement or commentary. Any interpretation you apply to my "tone" is based solely on your biases and prejudices and have no basis in reality.

 

The rest of your post is unintelligible. I can only ask "WTF are you talking about? Did you leave something out? Did your make an intuitive leap that no one else can follow"? :confused:

Edited April 1, 2019 by Guest

[sopmac45]

 

 

Here are some important pieces of information to aid this discussion.

 

America is a signatory to the 1951 Convention on Refugees and the following elements and protocols are defined in that Convention.

• /snip

 

You don't seriously think those bullet points are going to aid a "Discussion" do you ?

It is pretty much the equivalent of building a wall (of words) or line in the sand that is not to be crossed.

 

And it is only from a mere 70 years ago , that is then stated as if was carved in a couple rocks back in 1500 BCE .

(at least with the seems to me method reading your tone)

 

With the laws of physics giving clear evidence , that it would eventually fail. Because more people being more connected continuing , means the individual life and right to it , is worth less to society as a whole.

It is just not possible to accommodate every person and point of view equally in one box.

 

At some point the aspirational attempt to do so becomes a detriment to the mechanism which facilitates equity in the first place.

 

 

The thing about American Laws and Treaties is that they remain in effect until someone repeals them. So although the treaty was ratified my America in 1954, it is still in effect in 2019, Sixty-five years later. And until the treaty is repealed, it is, for all practical purposes, etched in stone. :D

 

Those bullet points are fact and law. I presented them to summarize the contents of the Treaty and the impact which that treaty has on the discussion. Nothing more and nothing less. It is always better to deal with the facts, don't you think?

 

Facts have no tone, and I presented the facts without judgement or commentary. Any interpretation you apply to my "tone" is based solely on your biases and prejudices and have no basis in reality.

 

The rest of your post is unintelligible. I can only ask "WTF are you talking about? Did you leave something out? Did your make an intuitive leap that no one else can follow"? :confused:

 

 

 

Obviously it seems to me that you have never been in any country but here. I do not think that you ever been in Mexico or any other country in Central America, living in any of those during perhaps 6 months for you to kind of understand what is going on in there, so you only base your post on laws, but not on reality. By the way, do not go there so probably will be kidnapped or killed.

 

Just for your information, the former president of Mexico Pena Nieto, became a multi-millionaire after he finished his terms and owns more than 6 private jets and 35 luxury cars and more than 200 millions dollars in his personal checking account and Mexico have a lot of natural resources like oil and several others plus tourism, so the population of this country is poor not because US but because the thieves in that government. If the population is ok with that is because they have a way out by coming to US as if they were walking in the park. Closing the border will not stop them immediately but will definitely push them back and think about resolving their own business in their own territory.

 

For the way that you are talking, looks to me like you do not really care at all about people crossing illegally the border and why in the 7 heavens you do not open the doors of your house ( if you have one ) or apartment and give shelter and food to a mexican family ?

 

If we continue leaving the border open, in about 15-20 years probably US will have more hispanic people than black and white, so I am pretty sure that you will love that and you would love to probably see more senators and congressman hispanics than not and probably several running to be president of this country.

 

Try to understand the basic concept of a family, you as a father ( if you are a father and I doubt that you are ) must support your family first, supply to them with everything they need and prepare your children for their future. If you have enough resources, after you first take care of your wife and kids, you can help the rest of your family, parents, brother and sisters, rest and probably friends. Then, you can think about helping a neighbor if you have something left.

 

The day our senators and congressman focus on having us ( all legal citizens of this country so we are the family and they are the parents ) in a better situation than we are : free health, free superior education, etc, etc, .... then we should think about helping others. Doing the opposite is killing us for the sake of others to live here and even in better conditions than us, because they come for free, get a job without even a social security, get food stamps and medicaid ( I see this in my job everyday my friend ) while I do not have that at all and I have to work 40 hours, pay taxes and still must have to pay to the IRS. Nice right ?

 

And on the top of that, if you understand Spanish language ( I do really doubt it ), you should watch Univision TV channel. Everyday they are agitating the hispanic masses to demand from the government to allow them to live here. They are not asking nicely, they are demanding to the government and I can see how everyday hispanics are falling in the trap to really believe it is their right to not just cross the border illegally, but to get the permanent residency, jobs and help from the government in a country that is not theirs ? This is ridiculous, absolutely awful and unacceptable. Hispanics are saying that without them, this country will collapse because they are helping the economy and that they have the right to bring their families from Central America and if US do not let them do so, US is evil by not allowing them to be together. Really ?

 

Why don't you go to Guatemala and go to the street and scream out of your lungs that the government must give you shelter, food, job and the citizenship of that country ? You will be killed or kidnapped in a blink of an eye. If you try the cross the border and they let you, you will be paying thousands of dollars or probably take your money and then kill you. You have not idea how the situation is over there because you have never been there my friend so it is easy to talk. You will see the government head living like a millionaire, his/her family and friends and the majority, the rest, in a very poor conditions. Well, when a human being feels trapped, he / she will become a warrior and fight for his/her life with everything he/she got. But when not, when that human being finds a way out ( coming to US ) then obviously, he will take the easy route at the cost of those living in that country and paying with our taxes all the benefits they are getting for free.

[HeyYou]

 

No, the wall won't solve the problem. But, it will go a long way toward reducing it.

 

How long has the US been building border security ? What is the chances of it really making a dent , and at what cost ?

Is it a real thing that is possible , or just a pipe dream placebo.

Do you really see it as a secure investment ?

 

 

Eliminating the reasons that folks come here illegally is NOT our problem. It is not our job to solve other countries problems.

 

Apparently it is OUR problem , because we live on the same side of the border , and CANNOT agree.

Are you saying with a wall in place ... we will now start to agree ?

Laissez-faire capitalism , is the problem of why people come here.

 

The US has a proven track record of being absolutely terrible at Nation Building.

 

Are you sure we have given it enough of an effort ? Or even the right effort ?

 

We don't have the money, the military, the political will, or citizen backing for any more of it. We need to address our problems right here at home, including illegal immigration, and get OURSELVES back on track. Once that happens, maybe THEN we can turn our eyes outward again, and see what we can do for those less fortunate.

 

If we are ready to drop 30 billion plus for a wall . How do we not have the money to invest more wisely in curbing the problem. And you know as well as I do , the motivation is at least 50% to poke our political enemies in the eye. Both ways ... So if we have the money for eye poking , we certainly have the money for eye patches ;P

 

But, ARE we going to get ourselves back on track? Looking at the current situation, I don't see it happening any time soon. The political divide is just too great, and it is getting wider. With the current direction the democrats are heading, all they are going to accomplish is to further divide the people. We are heading for a fall, and its gonna be a big one. Things simply cannot continue as they are. Something is going to give, and when it does, the entire world will be affected. I fully expect to see civil war in the US again, within the next 20 years. If not sooner.

 

It's gona be sooner than 20 years for sure if the next prez elect isn't near a 60% win ... AND , the centrists don't step up shaking the hands of their counter parts across the isle in favor of letting the extremes causing us to circle the cesspool toilet bowl. But I think for that to happen ... we will need a serious look at separation for a reality check on just what exactly we would be losing by letting it go all the way to armed conflict. Which I'm pretty sure most people thinking it's a good idea ... would get over it in about a week faced with the realities of it.

 

And I take it back that I don't see me and you ever seeing eye to eye. I'd be willing to bet we could see eye to eye on a great many things if given the chance :wink:

 

Folks emigrate to the US for "A better life". Referring to the illegals specifically here, they are looking for opportunity..... to be taken care of. Free food, free housing, free education, and whatever money they make, (under the table) they send back to family 'at home'. This is a drain on our resources, that could be better spent helping folks that are here legally, or, heaven forfend, are actually citizens...... We send money to the countries that most of our illegals are coming from, to ostensibly 'help' them, so they will actually stay in their own country. That obviously isn't working. The powers-that-be in those countries live well, and get rich of amercian aid dollars. You know, american tax dollars from the folks that actually work for a living. (or, simply money the government produces out of thin air.......) So, effectively, all we are doing is enriching a very few at the top of the power ladder in those countries, while the citizens of those countries are still living in abject poverty.

 

Quite frankly, closing the border, and telling them all "no", is a viable option here. As is cutting off those aid dollars. (since they aren't helping the folks they were intended for anyway.) We also need to get rid of birthright citizenship. We are the ONLY country that does that. Go into ANY other country illegally, have your baby, and you will ALL be deported, as soon as you are discovered. if not imprisoned.

 

And no. It is NOT our job to 'fix' other countries problems. We simply can't afford it. I have already mentioned that we are downright terrible at it. Most of those places have been dealing with the same issues for decades, or longer.... it is ingrained in their culture. The only fix for that is going to have to come from within their own community. If they aren't willing to put forth the effort to solve their own problems, how does that make it OUR problem?????

[Mktavish]

Here are some important pieces of information to aid this discussion.

 

 

Your tone was inserted here , most notably with the word "aid".

Which I found your intention to aid the discussion , disingenuous , or hollow at best.

But remember I did qualify it with saying I used a seems to me method.

 

The rest was describing entropy , and how it is at work in our society with the din of voices devaluing each individual.

Where as the attempt to actually aid discussion would be of more importance because of that.

 

Just my 2cp for some advice to use how ever you will , or not ^shrug^

Other than that , I can't say I find any disagreement with your bullet points.

[Mktavish]

 

Folks emigrate to the US for "A better life". Referring to the illegals specifically here, they are looking for opportunity..... to be taken care of. Free food, free housing, free education, and whatever money they make, (under the table) they send back to family 'at home'. This is a drain on our resources, that could be better spent helping folks that are here legally, or, heaven forfend, are actually citizens...... We send money to the countries that most of our illegals are coming from, to ostensibly 'help' them, so they will actually stay in their own country. That obviously isn't working. The powers-that-be in those countries live well, and get rich of amercian aid dollars. You know, american tax dollars from the folks that actually work for a living. (or, simply money the government produces out of thin air.......) So, effectively, all we are doing is enriching a very few at the top of the power ladder in those countries, while the citizens of those countries are still living in abject poverty.

 

Hmmm ... all I can really say to that is . Nothing in life is free ... we all pay for it one way or another. And that rule of life applies to them just as much.

And actually the Mexican labor started out in this country as nearly a slave class , which their wages simply do not support them in our economy , even though they do live rather frugally.

The welfare they receive is what makes it possible for us to benefit from their labors. And to say they do not work and struggle in life here , is an out right lie.

The real problem is in the criminal enterprises ... that is the money that is getting sucked out of our economy. And you know damn well they are full well aided by American people.

 

 

Quite frankly, closing the border, and telling them all "no", is a viable option here. As is cutting off those aid dollars. (since they aren't helping the folks they were intended for anyway.) We also need to get rid of birthright citizenship. We are the ONLY country that does that. Go into ANY other country illegally, have your baby, and you will ALL be deported, as soon as you are discovered. if not imprisoned.

 

And no. It is NOT our job to 'fix' other countries problems. We simply can't afford it. I have already mentioned that we are downright terrible at it. Most of those places have been dealing with the same issues for decades, or longer.... it is ingrained in their culture. The only fix for that is going to have to come from within their own community. If they aren't willing to put forth the effort to solve their own problems, how does that make it OUR problem?????

 

I don't think we can afford not to do something about it ... But honestly there is no point in attempting to fix it while our " United " part of the country is in shambles.

Might it be easier for those of the nationalist persuasion to just move north if ya'll want to stay out of fixing the real problems of the world.

Idaho , Montana & North Dakota with those oil fields could be a good start in setting up a government free from democrat influence ? See if it grows or shrinks from there ?

 

[Deleted67195711User]

 

[ chop ]

 

 

It is painfully obvious that you do not deal in facts. You deal in emotions, invective, assumption and insults in a effort to incite an argument. I will not play such an infantile game. Bye.

[MrJoseCuervo]

[Mktavish]

Yeppers ... what did it achieve ... what did it cost ?

 

Guacamole aint cheap )))>