Vortex 1.0 Release

SeleenAvathea · August 6, 2019

In response to post #72348273.

HadToRegister wrote:

In response to post #72321343.

ravernware wrote: I used to be a Votex Hater. Seriously. Or was it that I had become so comfortable with NMM? 3 days ago I made my third attempt over a few months period to move FO4 from NMM to Vortex as NMM was seriously showing its age. Well after some mega frustrations (I just could not migrate all my d/l'd mods from NMM into Vortex) and a few F-bombs I finally got it. I mean I REALLY got it. I feel I now understand how vortex works. Frankly, imo it works great. I basically created a new folder for my FO4 mods, and set that as the Vortex mod install folder. Then installed each one manually. It took a while to load 204 mods into vortex. Then set up the load rules to clear the mod conflicts Vortex id'd. But once I got the hang of it, it became relatively simple. Created an F4SE game profile and then set up the correct file paths for the tools (Loot, FOEDIT, F4SE, Bodyslide, etc.).
So.. now I find I am a Vortex lover. Yes. I now love Vortex. I used to blame the extreme slow loading times of FO4 had before on Win10. But now that I am running Vortex I realize it was old man NMM. FO4 starts up super fast now (under 60 sec) in F4SE mod and 204 active mods. Runs way more stable too. So all that said, I really recommend to my fellow NMM holdouts to take the plunge, work through the frustrations, READ the knowledge base, and migrate to Vortex. I am sooo glad I finally did.
Huge happy face!! :smile:
First of all, yeah, maybe you can do manually import 204 mods in a reasonable time, but at around ~500 it just gets ridicolous, and we'll never talk about the grief you have importing 1000+ mods manually.
And for the rules: You may find that simple, but a lot of people just don't care to learn what technically amounts to a basic programming language just to get their game working smoothly. I swear, if i ever read a popup about looping rules again i'll eat 15 wheels of cheese at once.
I'm not a programmer. Mainly because i hate fiddling with syntax in rules and command lines and go on error hunts. I really, really don't want to do just that for 2 weeks just to get my skyrim to a playable state. Especially if your mod list contains finicky stuff that needs a lot of load order love that vortex just won't handle, like for example running requiem, defeat and captured with all their extension mods in just the right order as to not hamper each other. What used to be ~20 minutes of dragging and dropping is now about half a day of nothing more but rudimentary coding, because trial and error is a lot more tedious if you have to write a sentence every time instead of just clicking a thing. it just adds up.
That is, if the rule system works, and vortex doesn't just decide to ignore your custom rules because it thinks it knows better anyway. Which it 99% doesn't do.

That's the most far fetched one I've heard yet.

Is it now? Care to elaborate why writing a catalougue of custom rules, debugging them and in the end still having them ignored by vortex is in any way not analogous to basic programming or tedious as all fehck?

August 6, 2019

okay, I'll humour you, what was the last piece of "basic programming language" you wrote in vortex?

Tannin42 · August 6, 2019

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288, #72342908, #72343558, #72344193, #72347828 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:
its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base
Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.
I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.
its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.
Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.
try this;

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:
they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:
So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Dark0ne wrote:
Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

Arthmoor wrote:
We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

I am aware of the dancing and weaving that caused it to go on for 90 pages as I'm pretty sure it's one of the threads I participated in at the time where at many points during that catastrophe of a thread we tried to explain the position and why it's valid only to be told "no, we're setting out to redefine the standards" and it was basically left at that. Sure, your opinion is your opinion, but that doesn't make it a correct one. Manual load ordering as defined by the community DOES NOT EXIST in Vortext and never did, nor does Tannin say it ever will.

Tannin and I have our disagreements on this, but at least he's honest and his opinion as a result can be respected. His program, his show, so if he just doesn't want to do it, so be it. That doesn't entitle anyone to change the definitions in an attempt to silence the argument.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, the same tired semantics argument again.

Don't bother responding, it's not going to turn into another 90 page thread.

Tannin42 wrote: I wanted to skip this discussion because there is nothing here that hasn't been discussed to death before but sorry, can't...

On the matter of terminology:
The problem is that when you say "manual vs automatic" ordering you're insinuating that Vortex ordering doesn't allow the user to manually affect the order. You personally have claimed in the past Vortex to be (i paraphrase) "automatic and therefore taking control away from the user" which is factually, objectively incorrect. Worst case Vortex makes a detour via rules necessary.
This misinformation campaign is what triggered people to respond by "Vortex allows manual ordering too" which I agree now muddies the discussion a bit.

I've always tried my best to use more precise terminology "rule-based" vs "drag&drop" ordering when the distinction was necessary.
Unfortunately it wasn't picked up by many. On neither side of the discussion. Not by you either.
You are right that many users will interpret "manual ordering" to be the way it was done by older mod managers (although OBMM didn't actually have drag&drop but up/down buttons iirc) but you also know full well that a lot of users will misinterpret "automatic ordering". Actually, I assume you count on that.
And as far as I can tell every time anyone referred to what Vortex does as "manual" ordering they made it clear that it was a different form to what users are used to, whereas those who call Vortex "automatic" make no effort to clarify that it allows for all the customization any user needs.

So how about you give a good example by starting to use unambiguous terminology yourself?

Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

My stance on this is and has always been: If you can demonstrate a use case where a valid load order can't be created with rule-based ordering, we will investigate. (And we did investigate several of these claims and all turned out to be user error, where the user - with drag&drop ordering - would have created an invalid load order because they misinterpreted instructions or referred to outdated instructions)
And we always said: While _we_ aren't going to implement drag&drop ordering unless absolutely necessary, we won't stand in the way of anyone doing it as an extension. (And there was a project to do it (https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6384326-design-considerations-for-a-proposed-extension-to-facilitate-manual-plugin-ordering/) which was abandoned because the initiator realized that rule-based ordering wasn't all that bad after all. hmmm.)

Arthmoor wrote:
Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

Accusations like this are why it's futile to attempt to have a rational discussion with anyone on the Vortex team about these matters. I have not misquoted you, or anyone else in this, I've simply restated what you've all been drumbeating since this whole shitshow began. You have said flat out on several occasions, directly to me and others, that manual load ordering is not going to be included. You know as well as I do that I did not agree with this direction but accepted that it's your shitshow to manage, and left it at that.

You seem to now be playing along with the revisionist game that's being played here, so have at it, you're not going to change the minds of those of us who know what's actually going on here. You certainly aren't going to get us to start recommending a flathead screwdriver for games that are using phillips head screws.

The only misinformation campaign being waged here is the one being conducted by the dev team and Nexus staff.

Revisionist? Practically everything I said on the topic is public.

The only private message I ever sent to you was on "12 February 2018" (referring to a forum discussion):
----------------------------
Hi Arthmoor,
sorry I didn't get to reply to your post on the thread before it was closed. I desperately needed a break for the weekend.

I think we have quite different assessments of who the majority of mod users are, how experienced they are and so on. As a result, we have different expectations of how the Vortex plugin ordering will play out.

Personally I don't really feel it makes a difference whether you tell a user "drag my plugin below plugin b" or "drag my mod onto plugin b and click 'add'" but it
may make a difference how often you have to say it.

Anyhow, I just wanted to assure you: The decision I made was not intended to make the life of unexperienced users easier at the expense of advanced users and mod authors.
I fully expect it to make the life easier for everyone, maybe after a short adaption period and if your expectation turns out to be right and this turns into extra effort for mod authors I will not be satisfied and I will look into fixing it.

All I ask is that you give it a chance and keep me updated if it turns out to be a problem.

Tannin
---------------------------

Needless to say your answer was immediate, dismissive and you never followed up. I can post that too if you like...

How you turn that into a " You have said flat out on several occasions, yadda yadda" is beyond me.

If you're accusing me of trying to revise anything, you better provide some proof because I can shower you in publicly visible posts made by me where I'm asking people for reproducible issues with the rule-based system as a prerequisite to considering alternative solutions.
Everybody inclined can verify that. Everybody can verify that I never got such a response (at least none that didn't turn out to be user-error or fixable bugs).

You expected me to change the load order system simply because *you* demanded it. That is what I rejected.

You seem very sure that you can claim anything here and users are just going to take your word for it but anyone who actually cares for "what's actually going on here" can go and form their own opinion.

SeleenAvathea · August 6, 2019

In response to post #72350133.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:
okay, I'll humour you, what was the last piece of "basic programming language" you wrote in vortex?

and as i said, i'm not a programmer, by choice, because i find this s#*! tedious, and i don't want it to be necesseary in my entertainment software while a way less deliberately complexy alternative exists.

And inb4 'hurr durr that is not an actual programming language durr' hair splitting: It's something i have to write to tell a program how to do its fehcking job, it uses syntax, and it's written out in lines. even if you don't 100% agree that that is analogous to what you think is coding, it's close enough for me to not only make the comparsion but be antsy about a response that basically amounts to 'git gud' if i complain about an issue with a decisively user-unfriendly workaround for a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

August 6, 2019

so no code then. well that's cleared that up.

as i said above, if you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to say nothing. you've said your piece, and offered - oh nothing of value. thanks.

Thandal · August 6, 2019

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288, #72342908, #72343558, #72344193 are all replies on the same post.

<snip>
... I have not misquoted you, or anyone else in this, I've simply restated what you've all been drumbeating since this whole shitshow began..

Excuse me, but "restating" is definitely not "quoting".

So if the original write/speaker believes s/he has been misquoted, and the person accused of doing so admits to "restating", then s/he was, in fact, misquoted. QED.

[EDIT: And a general call to puh-leze learn to use the actual [ quote ] control (see above example) so that the author and date/time of the original post is included. These "unattributed" snippets get confusing.]

Edited August 6, 2019 by Thandal
Added admonition.

SeleenAvathea · August 7, 2019

In response to post #72351168.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:
so no code then. well that's cleared that up.

as i said above, if you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to say nothing. you've said your piece, and offered - oh nothing of value. thanks.

Well, better to offer nothing of value in 3 posts than actively trying to derail what could have been constructive conversation in 2000 posts imho

Vanguarde2017 · August 7, 2019

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288, #72342908, #72343558, #72344193, #72347828, #72350233 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:
its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base
Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.
I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.
its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.
Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.
try this;

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:
they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:
So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Dark0ne wrote:
Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

Arthmoor wrote:
We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

I am aware of the dancing and weaving that caused it to go on for 90 pages as I'm pretty sure it's one of the threads I participated in at the time where at many points during that catastrophe of a thread we tried to explain the position and why it's valid only to be told "no, we're setting out to redefine the standards" and it was basically left at that. Sure, your opinion is your opinion, but that doesn't make it a correct one. Manual load ordering as defined by the community DOES NOT EXIST in Vortext and never did, nor does Tannin say it ever will.

Tannin and I have our disagreements on this, but at least he's honest and his opinion as a result can be respected. His program, his show, so if he just doesn't want to do it, so be it. That doesn't entitle anyone to change the definitions in an attempt to silence the argument.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, the same tired semantics argument again.

Don't bother responding, it's not going to turn into another 90 page thread.

Tannin42 wrote: I wanted to skip this discussion because there is nothing here that hasn't been discussed to death before but sorry, can't...

On the matter of terminology:
The problem is that when you say "manual vs automatic" ordering you're insinuating that Vortex ordering doesn't allow the user to manually affect the order. You personally have claimed in the past Vortex to be (i paraphrase) "automatic and therefore taking control away from the user" which is factually, objectively incorrect. Worst case Vortex makes a detour via rules necessary.
This misinformation campaign is what triggered people to respond by "Vortex allows manual ordering too" which I agree now muddies the discussion a bit.

I've always tried my best to use more precise terminology "rule-based" vs "drag&drop" ordering when the distinction was necessary.
Unfortunately it wasn't picked up by many. On neither side of the discussion. Not by you either.
You are right that many users will interpret "manual ordering" to be the way it was done by older mod managers (although OBMM didn't actually have drag&drop but up/down buttons iirc) but you also know full well that a lot of users will misinterpret "automatic ordering". Actually, I assume you count on that.
And as far as I can tell every time anyone referred to what Vortex does as "manual" ordering they made it clear that it was a different form to what users are used to, whereas those who call Vortex "automatic" make no effort to clarify that it allows for all the customization any user needs.

So how about you give a good example by starting to use unambiguous terminology yourself?

Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

My stance on this is and has always been: If you can demonstrate a use case where a valid load order can't be created with rule-based ordering, we will investigate. (And we did investigate several of these claims and all turned out to be user error, where the user - with drag&drop ordering - would have created an invalid load order because they misinterpreted instructions or referred to outdated instructions)
And we always said: While _we_ aren't going to implement drag&drop ordering unless absolutely necessary, we won't stand in the way of anyone doing it as an extension. (And there was a project to do it (https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6384326-design-considerations-for-a-proposed-extension-to-facilitate-manual-plugin-ordering/) which was abandoned because the initiator realized that rule-based ordering wasn't all that bad after all. hmmm.)

Arthmoor wrote:
Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

Accusations like this are why it's futile to attempt to have a rational discussion with anyone on the Vortex team about these matters. I have not misquoted you, or anyone else in this, I've simply restated what you've all been drumbeating since this whole shitshow began. You have said flat out on several occasions, directly to me and others, that manual load ordering is not going to be included. You know as well as I do that I did not agree with this direction but accepted that it's your shitshow to manage, and left it at that.

You seem to now be playing along with the revisionist game that's being played here, so have at it, you're not going to change the minds of those of us who know what's actually going on here. You certainly aren't going to get us to start recommending a flathead screwdriver for games that are using phillips head screws.

The only misinformation campaign being waged here is the one being conducted by the dev team and Nexus staff.

Tannin42 wrote: Revisionist? Practically everything I said on the topic is public.

The only private message I ever sent to you was on "12 February 2018" (referring to a forum discussion):
----------------------------
Hi Arthmoor,
sorry I didn't get to reply to your post on the thread before it was closed. I desperately needed a break for the weekend.

I think we have quite different assessments of who the majority of mod users are, how experienced they are and so on. As a result, we have different expectations of how the Vortex plugin ordering will play out.

Personally I don't really feel it makes a difference whether you tell a user "drag my plugin below plugin b" or "drag my mod onto plugin b and click 'add'" but it
may make a difference how often you have to say it.

Anyhow, I just wanted to assure you: The decision I made was not intended to make the life of unexperienced users easier at the expense of advanced users and mod authors.
I fully expect it to make the life easier for everyone, maybe after a short adaption period and if your expectation turns out to be right and this turns into extra effort for mod authors I will not be satisfied and I will look into fixing it.

All I ask is that you give it a chance and keep me updated if it turns out to be a problem.

Tannin
---------------------------

Needless to say your answer was immediate, dismissive and you never followed up. I can post that too if you like...

How you turn that into a " You have said flat out on several occasions, yadda yadda" is beyond me.

If you're accusing me of trying to revise anything, you better provide some proof because I can shower you in publicly visible posts made by me where I'm asking people for reproducible issues with the rule-based system as a prerequisite to considering alternative solutions.
Everybody inclined can verify that. Everybody can verify that I never got such a response (at least none that didn't turn out to be user-error or fixable bugs).

You expected me to change the load order system simply because *you* demanded it. That is what I rejected.

You seem very sure that you can claim anything here and users are just going to take your word for it but anyone who actually cares for "what's actually going on here" can go and form their own opinion.

Arthmoor, why do you seem so angry? I have carefully read this entire forum thread and it's obvious you greatly dislike Vortex. I just don't understand why you seem to be on a mission of some sorts to trigger or piss off the developers of Vortex and the staff of the Nexus. Vortex is a masterpiece and is a fantastic tool once you learn it completely. It embarrasses NMM and MO2, and it truly is the mod manager of the future - and beyond. It will revolutionize the way the "everyday man and woman" can enjoy various mods in future games, like the next Elder Scrolls which is going to be massive. The Nexus needs no defending, as it has proven itself to the community via the hard work done by the staff at the Nexus.

The point of my post is I simply don't understand why you are angry. Why not embrace the change and learn to work with it, instead of fighting the future that Tannin and the Nexus are creating for us? Vortex will revolutionize the game when MOD PACK support comes out, opening up modding for so many more people! It's exciting!

HadToRegister · August 7, 2019

In response to post #72351168.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:
so no code then. well that's cleared that up.

as i said above, if you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to say nothing. you've said your piece, and offered - oh nothing of value. thanks.
Well, better to offer nothing of value in 3 posts than actively trying to derail what could have been constructive conversation in 2000 posts imho

Your post offered nothing of value because it wasn't based on anything factual.

There is no "Coding" or "writing a catalog of custom Rules"code or anything thing else for that matter to sort a plugin.

You pick Plugin B that you want to load after Plugin A, you either drag Plugin B's Icon to Plugin A, and pick "LOAD AFTER"

Or you do the same thing in the "Manage Rules" window, where you pick Plugin B, then Pick Plugin A, then pick LOAD AFTER, and hit APPLY

Now, tell me where all of this coding is?

I wouldn't mind the arguments for Manual Load Order Sorting if they all weren't "Argument from Ignorance" Fallacies, from people who barely used Vortex for 2 minutes

I have 279 mods in Fallout 4, I have 8 plugins sorted Manually

You shouldn't need to manually sort an entire load order, if you do, than you're doing something wrong.

Arthmoor · August 7, 2019

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288, #72342908, #72343558, #72344193, #72347828, #72350233, #72355698 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:
its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base
Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.
I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.
its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.
Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.
try this;

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:
they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:
So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Dark0ne wrote:
Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

Arthmoor wrote:
We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

I am aware of the dancing and weaving that caused it to go on for 90 pages as I'm pretty sure it's one of the threads I participated in at the time where at many points during that catastrophe of a thread we tried to explain the position and why it's valid only to be told "no, we're setting out to redefine the standards" and it was basically left at that. Sure, your opinion is your opinion, but that doesn't make it a correct one. Manual load ordering as defined by the community DOES NOT EXIST in Vortext and never did, nor does Tannin say it ever will.

Tannin and I have our disagreements on this, but at least he's honest and his opinion as a result can be respected. His program, his show, so if he just doesn't want to do it, so be it. That doesn't entitle anyone to change the definitions in an attempt to silence the argument.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, the same tired semantics argument again.

Don't bother responding, it's not going to turn into another 90 page thread.

Tannin42 wrote: I wanted to skip this discussion because there is nothing here that hasn't been discussed to death before but sorry, can't...

On the matter of terminology:
The problem is that when you say "manual vs automatic" ordering you're insinuating that Vortex ordering doesn't allow the user to manually affect the order. You personally have claimed in the past Vortex to be (i paraphrase) "automatic and therefore taking control away from the user" which is factually, objectively incorrect. Worst case Vortex makes a detour via rules necessary.
This misinformation campaign is what triggered people to respond by "Vortex allows manual ordering too" which I agree now muddies the discussion a bit.

I've always tried my best to use more precise terminology "rule-based" vs "drag&drop" ordering when the distinction was necessary.
Unfortunately it wasn't picked up by many. On neither side of the discussion. Not by you either.
You are right that many users will interpret "manual ordering" to be the way it was done by older mod managers (although OBMM didn't actually have drag&drop but up/down buttons iirc) but you also know full well that a lot of users will misinterpret "automatic ordering". Actually, I assume you count on that.
And as far as I can tell every time anyone referred to what Vortex does as "manual" ordering they made it clear that it was a different form to what users are used to, whereas those who call Vortex "automatic" make no effort to clarify that it allows for all the customization any user needs.

So how about you give a good example by starting to use unambiguous terminology yourself?

Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

My stance on this is and has always been: If you can demonstrate a use case where a valid load order can't be created with rule-based ordering, we will investigate. (And we did investigate several of these claims and all turned out to be user error, where the user - with drag&drop ordering - would have created an invalid load order because they misinterpreted instructions or referred to outdated instructions)
And we always said: While _we_ aren't going to implement drag&drop ordering unless absolutely necessary, we won't stand in the way of anyone doing it as an extension. (And there was a project to do it (https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6384326-design-considerations-for-a-proposed-extension-to-facilitate-manual-plugin-ordering/) which was abandoned because the initiator realized that rule-based ordering wasn't all that bad after all. hmmm.)

Arthmoor wrote:
Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

Accusations like this are why it's futile to attempt to have a rational discussion with anyone on the Vortex team about these matters. I have not misquoted you, or anyone else in this, I've simply restated what you've all been drumbeating since this whole shitshow began. You have said flat out on several occasions, directly to me and others, that manual load ordering is not going to be included. You know as well as I do that I did not agree with this direction but accepted that it's your shitshow to manage, and left it at that.

You seem to now be playing along with the revisionist game that's being played here, so have at it, you're not going to change the minds of those of us who know what's actually going on here. You certainly aren't going to get us to start recommending a flathead screwdriver for games that are using phillips head screws.

The only misinformation campaign being waged here is the one being conducted by the dev team and Nexus staff.

Tannin42 wrote: Revisionist? Practically everything I said on the topic is public.

The only private message I ever sent to you was on "12 February 2018" (referring to a forum discussion):
----------------------------
Hi Arthmoor,
sorry I didn't get to reply to your post on the thread before it was closed. I desperately needed a break for the weekend.

I think we have quite different assessments of who the majority of mod users are, how experienced they are and so on. As a result, we have different expectations of how the Vortex plugin ordering will play out.

Personally I don't really feel it makes a difference whether you tell a user "drag my plugin below plugin b" or "drag my mod onto plugin b and click 'add'" but it
may make a difference how often you have to say it.

Anyhow, I just wanted to assure you: The decision I made was not intended to make the life of unexperienced users easier at the expense of advanced users and mod authors.
I fully expect it to make the life easier for everyone, maybe after a short adaption period and if your expectation turns out to be right and this turns into extra effort for mod authors I will not be satisfied and I will look into fixing it.

All I ask is that you give it a chance and keep me updated if it turns out to be a problem.

Tannin
---------------------------

Needless to say your answer was immediate, dismissive and you never followed up. I can post that too if you like...

How you turn that into a " You have said flat out on several occasions, yadda yadda" is beyond me.

If you're accusing me of trying to revise anything, you better provide some proof because I can shower you in publicly visible posts made by me where I'm asking people for reproducible issues with the rule-based system as a prerequisite to considering alternative solutions.
Everybody inclined can verify that. Everybody can verify that I never got such a response (at least none that didn't turn out to be user-error or fixable bugs).

You expected me to change the load order system simply because *you* demanded it. That is what I rejected.

You seem very sure that you can claim anything here and users are just going to take your word for it but anyone who actually cares for "what's actually going on here" can go and form their own opinion.

Vanguarde2017 wrote: Arthmoor, why do you seem so angry? I have carefully read this entire forum thread and it's obvious you greatly dislike Vortex. I just don't understand why you seem to be on a mission of some sorts to trigger or piss off the developers of Vortex and the staff of the Nexus. Vortex is a masterpiece and is a fantastic tool once you learn it completely. It embarrasses NMM and MO2, and it truly is the mod manager of the future - and beyond. It will revolutionize the way the "everyday man and woman" can enjoy various mods in future games, like the next Elder Scrolls which is going to be massive. The Nexus needs no defending, as it has proven itself to the community via the hard work done by the staff at the Nexus.

The point of my post is I simply don't understand why you are angry. Why not embrace the change and learn to work with it, instead of fighting the future that Tannin and the Nexus are creating for us? Vortex will revolutionize the game when MOD PACK support comes out, opening up modding for so many more people! It's exciting!

Maybe because literally everyone supporting it is making themselves sound like an infomercial when defending it. "The mod manager of the future is here now" and such. You sound like snake oil salesmen and my experience with the program doesn't change that impression one bit.

Also because people like Tannin make utterly false statements like this:

You expected me to change the load order system simply because *you* demanded it. That is what I rejected.

At no point did any such thing ever happen, but he'll swear up and down it did and that's just wrong. Edited August 7, 2019 by Arthmoor

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