What's new with Vortex? - 1.2.14 Update

DarkDominion · July 6, 2020

In response to post #82644678. #82648508, #82649243, #82649413, #82650088, #82650933, #82705298, #82712143 are all replies on the same post.

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Lindaleff wrote: Look at the thing for Mount And Blade, how you can drag mods up and down in the load order. Did you ever do that for Skyrimr? The lack of such a button or mechanic means several Skyrim mods will not work. For that reason, I uninstalled Vortex, and continued using the old Nexus Mod Manager. Skyrim is simply not playable otherwise.

And before anyone says anything, LOOT also does not allow you to manually move mods. LOOT is simply a rough guideline, but you are stuck with what it gives you, so mods will still break.

So, if you have not already, do the same thing for Skyrim, and add a button or mechanic to manually move mods up and down in Skyrim load order.

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acidzebra wrote: this is mostly you not taking the 2 minutes to understand how this program works
https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/Managing_your_Load_Order

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Lindaleff wrote: That is almost word-for-word what someone told me when Vortex replaced the old Nexus Mod Manager. I looked at that page then, and looked at the thing in Vortex, and it was entirely too complex to understand. It literally wants you to learn how to program something, which I did not have the computer know-how to do then, and I still don't have now. It was not a "2 minutes" thing as you describe it. I spent hours on it, and could not figure out how to program it, much less program 150+ mods to work together.

The old Nexus Mod Manager has two simple arrow buttons, up and down. Click the up arrow to move the mod up, or click the down arrow to move the mod down. Easy to understand. Easy to use. Effective. This is what I want in Vortex. This article says the Mount And Blade section has been given a similar mechanic. Now we need the Skyrim section to have that same mechanic.

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Pickysaurus wrote: I suspect you're messing with your load order more than is actually required. Most of the time you don't even need to look at the plugins tab. And even then in my 600-ish mod install I probably had about 10 custom rules or group changes for however many plugins I ended up with.

NMM drilled a bunch of bad habits into a lot of modders. If you let Vortex do it's thing and only adjust the load order if it's actually necessary you'll find it much easier.

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Lindaleff wrote: Exactly the opposite. I was not able TO change the load order, which is why mods were conflicting with each other. I did not have a way to move stuff up or down to resolve those conflicts.

Those simple up and down arrows in NMM allowed me to resolve any conflicts without needing to learn a complex programming language, which is exactly what Vortex wants me to do.

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Pickysaurus wrote: You can double click a plugin and use the group drop-down to reassign it. I'm not sure why you feel it's like a "programming language" but if you have constructive feedback please feel free to submit to through the app.

I would suggest reading this first though: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

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DarkDominion wrote: I really like Vortex, but it’s dependency on LOOT ( or rather it being a shell for LOOT ) has always been the beef I had with it. LOOT isn’t infallible. One needs to go through more hassle than necessary to manually adjust something.

I really wish the developers ( yes, looking at you Tannin42 :) ) would give us a choice:
LOOT version of Vortex
Non LOOT version of Vortex

I bet a lot more people would want to use Vortex because besides being tool for LOOT it really has some great features
Cheers
-=DD=-

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acidzebra wrote: The flip side of "LOOT is not infallible" is that neither are you (or me). In general, I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion. However, if you have a mod that you consistently want somewhere other than where LOOT wants to place it (and in a list of ~300 skyrim VR mods I have about 5 or 6), just create a rule. Done. Now every time you deploy/sort, your mods will be placed in the exact same place you want them to.

I made a separate post because I felt I hijacked this topic.... Edited July 6, 2020 by DarkDominion

DarkDominion · July 6, 2020

@acidzebra,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.

Quote
[...] "LOOT is not infallible" [...] neither are you (or me) [...]

True, because I also never said that or mention that. But that's the typical reaction for someone who is a fan of the thing people frown upon.

One thing is for sure, and that is that it's my game and I would like to mod it via my ( load-order ) rules. Even if that isn't the perfect load order ( and assuming it didn't break my game, dôh ), it's still my load order for my game.

Your quote:

Quote
[...] I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion [...]

Quote from Pickysaurus a few posts back:

Quote
[...] chances are what you perceive as "correct" is not so or based on faulty advice. The LOOT masterlist is maintained by the entire Bethesda modding community so their combined knowledge is likely to be "more correct" that whatever you're basing your load order on [...]

Picky in contradicting himself by saying I as a member of said (Bethesda) modding community, and part of that group that has combined their knowledge, is more correct than I as an individual... My perception of a good load order is automatically false by his standards, because it's not from LOOT, so it must be based on faulty advise, advice which comes from that same (Bethesda) modding community who made LOOT into what it is. Actually Picky just says LOOT is build upon faulty advice.

( And if by "based on faulty advice" Picky means anything not from the Nexus....that would be..wow :blink: )

Looking at your quote you are just echoing what the moderators say. Individual thoughts have been replaced by group thoughts or so it seems....

Sorry, but no-one besides me knows what my load-order is, so the "general consensus" that has been build in LOOT as to what my load-order should be doesn't cut it completely : every load order is unique. Some of the mods I have installed are tweaked to my liking but put back in the load-order manually ( through Vortex, using their standard Nexus ID ). How is LOOT going to tell me where that tweaked mod should go if it can't detect what I have done to the mod?

Quote
[...] just create a rule [...]

Just pick it up and move it to the place I want, quicker, cleaner, less hassle.

It's borderline delusion of grandeur to think one has created the perfect mod manager, just by building it around a sorting mod ( which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT ). Nobody has an absolute monopoly on wisdom, I do not have that either, but I frown upon the method of LOrtex/VoOt telling how I should mod my game.

Moderators and ( the ) developer(s) are tired of us bringing this up every time they are trying to shut us down by saying (quote/un-quote) "Ultimately, this is a discussion that has been done to death, [...] not going to discuss the load order approach any further".

It's been discussed to death, shouldn't that just be a reason to listen to the people discussing it and maybe implement some of their ideas instead of brushing it under the carpet or shutting it down by ending discussions with a show stopping one-liner ?

( somewhere down the line I see Tannin42 jumping in and saying : can't change it, because otherwise Vortex and LOOT can't work together....sure. seperate them, that's all I want :) )

Love to hear everyone's thoughts on my opinion.

Cheers

-=DD=-

Edited July 6, 2020 by DarkDominion

acidzebra · July 6, 2020

In response to post #82737178. #82738688 is also a reply to the same post.

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DarkDominion wrote: @acidzebra,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.

Quote
[...] "LOOT is not infallible" [...] neither are you (or me) [...]
True, because I also never said that or mention that. But that's the typical reaction for someone who is a fan of the thing people frown upon.
One thing is for sure, and that is that it's my game and I would like to mod it via my ( load-order ) rules. Even if that isn't the perfect load order ( and assuming it didn't break my game, dôh ), it's still my load order for my game.

Your quote:

Quote
[...] I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion [...]

Quote from Pickysaurus a few posts back:

Quote
[...] chances are what you perceive as "correct" is not so or based on faulty advice. The LOOT masterlist is maintained by the entire Bethesda modding community so their combined knowledge is likely to be "more correct" that whatever you're basing your load order on [...]
Picky in contradicting himself by saying I as a member of said (Bethesda) modding community, and part of that group that has combined their knowledge, is more correct than I as an individual... My perception of a good load order is automatically false by his standards, because it's not from LOOT, so it must be based on faulty advise, advice which comes from that same (Bethesda) modding community who made LOOT into what it is. Actually Picky just says LOOT is build upon faulty advice.
( And if by "based on faulty advice" Picky means anything not from the Nexus....that would be..wow o_O )
Looking at your quote you are just echoing what the moderators say. Individual thoughts have been replaced by group thoughts or so it seems....

Sorry, but no-one besides me knows what my load-order is, so the "general consensus" that has been build in LOOT as to what my load-order should be doesn't cut it completely : every load order is unique. Some of the mods I have installed are tweaked to my liking but put back in the load-order manually ( through Vortex, using their standard Nexus ID ). How is LOOT going to tell me where that tweaked mod should go if it can't detect what I have done to the mod?

Quote
[...] just create a rule [...]
Just pick it up and move it to the place I want, quicker, cleaner, less hassle.

It's borderline delusion of grandeur to think one has created the perfect mod manager, just by building it around a sorting mod ( which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT ). Nobody has an absolute monopoly on wisdom, I do not have that either, but I frown upon the method of LOrtex/VoOt telling how I should mod my game.

Moderators and ( the ) developer(s) are tired of us bringing this up every time they are trying to shut us down by saying (quote/un-quote) "Ultimately, this is a discussion that has been done to death, [...] not going to discuss the load order approach any further".
It's been discussed to death, shouldn't that just be a reason to listen to the people discussing it and maybe implement some of their ideas instead of brushing it under the carpet or shutting it down by ending discussions with a show stopping one-liner ?

( somewhere down the line I see Tannin42 jumping in and saying : can't change it, because otherwise Vortex and LOOT can't work together....sure. seperate them, that's all I want :smile: )

Love to hear everyone's thoughts on my opinion.
Cheers
-=DD=-

Quote
Pickysaurus wrote: I'm not sure why you think my statement is contradictory. I am saying that your own opinion or the recommendations from a mod page are posted by one person with limited knowledge, whereas the LOOT masterlist is curated by users pooling their combined knowledge of modding from experience. If you feel you know better than LOOT, I suggest you help the community out by telling the LOOT team what's wrong.

We often see posts like "I have this plugin and it says it must load last.". No. It doesn't. It has to load after anything that it conflicts with, yes, but beyond that, it doesn't have to be dead last. Here's an example. I was always under the impression that my bashed patch for Skyrim had to be last, but I am able to load my Dyndolod plugin after it without issues because the Dyndolod plugin doesn't touch any of the lists modified in the bash. Had I not used LOOT I'd still be pointlessly moving my bashed patch to the very bottom of the load order.

Vortex will let you adjust your load order using rules and groups. You may prefer the "bad habits" from the NMM days, but you barely need to mess with your plugins when using Vortex, as acidzebra said you can have a full load order with less than 10 custom rule/group assignments. You have to also consider that a lot of extra headaches for our mod authors come from users who think they know best and load things in a silly order. So we're making it easier on both users and authors by providing an auto-sort solution.

Could have created a ton of rules in the time you took to write this and never have to worry about that part of your load order again. Maybe write your own mod manager?

Dark0ne · July 6, 2020

In response to post #82737178. #82738688, #82745643 are all replies on the same post.

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Quote
DarkDominion wrote: @acidzebra,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.

Quote
[...] "LOOT is not infallible" [...] neither are you (or me) [...]
True, because I also never said that or mention that. But that's the typical reaction for someone who is a fan of the thing people frown upon.
One thing is for sure, and that is that it's my game and I would like to mod it via my ( load-order ) rules. Even if that isn't the perfect load order ( and assuming it didn't break my game, dôh ), it's still my load order for my game.

Your quote:

Quote
[...] I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion [...]

Quote from Pickysaurus a few posts back:

Quote
[...] chances are what you perceive as "correct" is not so or based on faulty advice. The LOOT masterlist is maintained by the entire Bethesda modding community so their combined knowledge is likely to be "more correct" that whatever you're basing your load order on [...]
Picky in contradicting himself by saying I as a member of said (Bethesda) modding community, and part of that group that has combined their knowledge, is more correct than I as an individual... My perception of a good load order is automatically false by his standards, because it's not from LOOT, so it must be based on faulty advise, advice which comes from that same (Bethesda) modding community who made LOOT into what it is. Actually Picky just says LOOT is build upon faulty advice.
( And if by "based on faulty advice" Picky means anything not from the Nexus....that would be..wow :blink: )
Looking at your quote you are just echoing what the moderators say. Individual thoughts have been replaced by group thoughts or so it seems....

Sorry, but no-one besides me knows what my load-order is, so the "general consensus" that has been build in LOOT as to what my load-order should be doesn't cut it completely : every load order is unique. Some of the mods I have installed are tweaked to my liking but put back in the load-order manually ( through Vortex, using their standard Nexus ID ). How is LOOT going to tell me where that tweaked mod should go if it can't detect what I have done to the mod?

Quote
[...] just create a rule [...]
Just pick it up and move it to the place I want, quicker, cleaner, less hassle.

It's borderline delusion of grandeur to think one has created the perfect mod manager, just by building it around a sorting mod ( which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT ). Nobody has an absolute monopoly on wisdom, I do not have that either, but I frown upon the method of LOrtex/VoOt telling how I should mod my game.

Moderators and ( the ) developer(s) are tired of us bringing this up every time they are trying to shut us down by saying (quote/un-quote) "Ultimately, this is a discussion that has been done to death, [...] not going to discuss the load order approach any further".
It's been discussed to death, shouldn't that just be a reason to listen to the people discussing it and maybe implement some of their ideas instead of brushing it under the carpet or shutting it down by ending discussions with a show stopping one-liner ?

( somewhere down the line I see Tannin42 jumping in and saying : can't change it, because otherwise Vortex and LOOT can't work together....sure. seperate them, that's all I want :) )

Love to hear everyone's thoughts on my opinion.
Cheers
-=DD=-

Quote
Pickysaurus wrote: I'm not sure why you think my statement is contradictory. I am saying that your own opinion or the recommendations from a mod page are posted by one person with limited knowledge, whereas the LOOT masterlist is curated by users pooling their combined knowledge of modding from experience. If you feel you know better than LOOT, I suggest you help the community out by telling the LOOT team what's wrong.

We often see posts like "I have this plugin and it says it must load last.". No. It doesn't. It has to load after anything that it conflicts with, yes, but beyond that, it doesn't have to be dead last. Here's an example. I was always under the impression that my bashed patch for Skyrim had to be last, but I am able to load my Dyndolod plugin after it without issues because the Dyndolod plugin doesn't touch any of the lists modified in the bash. Had I not used LOOT I'd still be pointlessly moving my bashed patch to the very bottom of the load order.

Vortex will let you adjust your load order using rules and groups. You may prefer the "bad habits" from the NMM days, but you barely need to mess with your plugins when using Vortex, as acidzebra said you can have a full load order with less than 10 custom rule/group assignments. You have to also consider that a lot of extra headaches for our mod authors come from users who think they know best and load things in a silly order. So we're making it easier on both users and authors by providing an auto-sort solution.

Quote
acidzebra wrote:
In response to post #82737178. #82738688 is also a reply to the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
DarkDominion wrote: @acidzebra,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.

Quote
[...] "LOOT is not infallible" [...] neither are you (or me) [...]
True, because I also never said that or mention that. But that's the typical reaction for someone who is a fan of the thing people frown upon.
One thing is for sure, and that is that it's my game and I would like to mod it via my ( load-order ) rules. Even if that isn't the perfect load order ( and assuming it didn't break my game, dôh ), it's still my load order for my game.

Your quote:

Quote
[...] I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion [...]

Quote from Pickysaurus a few posts back:

Quote
[...] chances are what you perceive as "correct" is not so or based on faulty advice. The LOOT masterlist is maintained by the entire Bethesda modding community so their combined knowledge is likely to be "more correct" that whatever you're basing your load order on [...]
Picky in contradicting himself by saying I as a member of said (Bethesda) modding community, and part of that group that has combined their knowledge, is more correct than I as an individual... My perception of a good load order is automatically false by his standards, because it's not from LOOT, so it must be based on faulty advise, advice which comes from that same (Bethesda) modding community who made LOOT into what it is. Actually Picky just says LOOT is build upon faulty advice.
( And if by "based on faulty advice" Picky means anything not from the Nexus....that would be..wow o_O )
Looking at your quote you are just echoing what the moderators say. Individual thoughts have been replaced by group thoughts or so it seems....

Sorry, but no-one besides me knows what my load-order is, so the "general consensus" that has been build in LOOT as to what my load-order should be doesn't cut it completely : every load order is unique. Some of the mods I have installed are tweaked to my liking but put back in the load-order manually ( through Vortex, using their standard Nexus ID ). How is LOOT going to tell me where that tweaked mod should go if it can't detect what I have done to the mod?

Quote
[...] just create a rule [...]
Just pick it up and move it to the place I want, quicker, cleaner, less hassle.

It's borderline delusion of grandeur to think one has created the perfect mod manager, just by building it around a sorting mod ( which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT ). Nobody has an absolute monopoly on wisdom, I do not have that either, but I frown upon the method of LOrtex/VoOt telling how I should mod my game.

Moderators and ( the ) developer(s) are tired of us bringing this up every time they are trying to shut us down by saying (quote/un-quote) "Ultimately, this is a discussion that has been done to death, [...] not going to discuss the load order approach any further".
It's been discussed to death, shouldn't that just be a reason to listen to the people discussing it and maybe implement some of their ideas instead of brushing it under the carpet or shutting it down by ending discussions with a show stopping one-liner ?

( somewhere down the line I see Tannin42 jumping in and saying : can't change it, because otherwise Vortex and LOOT can't work together....sure. seperate them, that's all I want :smile: )

Love to hear everyone's thoughts on my opinion.
Cheers
-=DD=-

Quote
Pickysaurus wrote: I'm not sure why you think my statement is contradictory. I am saying that your own opinion or the recommendations from a mod page are posted by one person with limited knowledge, whereas the LOOT masterlist is curated by users pooling their combined knowledge of modding from experience. If you feel you know better than LOOT, I suggest you help the community out by telling the LOOT team what's wrong.

We often see posts like "I have this plugin and it says it must load last.". No. It doesn't. It has to load after anything that it conflicts with, yes, but beyond that, it doesn't have to be dead last. Here's an example. I was always under the impression that my bashed patch for Skyrim had to be last, but I am able to load my Dyndolod plugin after it without issues because the Dyndolod plugin doesn't touch any of the lists modified in the bash. Had I not used LOOT I'd still be pointlessly moving my bashed patch to the very bottom of the load order.

Vortex will let you adjust your load order using rules and groups. You may prefer the "bad habits" from the NMM days, but you barely need to mess with your plugins when using Vortex, as acidzebra said you can have a full load order with less than 10 custom rule/group assignments. You have to also consider that a lot of extra headaches for our mod authors come from users who think they know best and load things in a silly order. So we're making it easier on both users and authors by providing an auto-sort solution.
Could have created a ton of rules in the time you took to write this and never have to worry about that part of your load order again. Maybe write your own mod manager?

Quote
which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT

By that logic, NMM, MO2 and Wrye Bash are simply "shells" for the plugin.txt file and Bethesda's built-in plugin management system. But obviously calling them that is disingenuous to the myriad other features and functions they have. The exact same can be said of Vortex.

Your whole comment leans heavily on the idea of the "loss of control". You're in no more or less control with Vortex than you are with any of the other mod managers for Bethesda games, simply the method by which you control your load order and plugin management has changed. If you don't like that change or you don't want to change your way of thinking then that's your prerogative but don't paint it as something that it isn't. All the mod managers have the same level of control - your issue is with how you can exercise that control. The idea behind Vortex is to reduce the amount of work people need to do to get a working and stable modded setup of their favourite games. If that's not as important to you as "drag and drop" mod management then you are not forced to use it and in fact, we'd rather you didn't use it because you're only going to make things worse for yourself (and by proxy, us) if you try and enforce your old modding standards on Vortex's.

You have plenty of choices available to you and we believe we've made the right decision in the path we've taken. Indeed, the vast uptake in Vortex over the past couple of years helps us to know we've taken the right path. Edited July 6, 2020 by Dark0ne

DarkDominion · July 7, 2020

In response to post #82737178. #82738688, #82745643, #82746293 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
DarkDominion wrote: @acidzebra,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.

Quote
[...] "LOOT is not infallible" [...] neither are you (or me) [...]
True, because I also never said that or mention that. But that's the typical reaction for someone who is a fan of the thing people frown upon.
One thing is for sure, and that is that it's my game and I would like to mod it via my ( load-order ) rules. Even if that isn't the perfect load order ( and assuming it didn't break my game, dôh ), it's still my load order for my game.

Your quote:

Quote
[...] I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion [...]

Quote from Pickysaurus a few posts back:

Quote
[...] chances are what you perceive as "correct" is not so or based on faulty advice. The LOOT masterlist is maintained by the entire Bethesda modding community so their combined knowledge is likely to be "more correct" that whatever you're basing your load order on [...]
Picky in contradicting himself by saying I as a member of said (Bethesda) modding community, and part of that group that has combined their knowledge, is more correct than I as an individual... My perception of a good load order is automatically false by his standards, because it's not from LOOT, so it must be based on faulty advise, advice which comes from that same (Bethesda) modding community who made LOOT into what it is. Actually Picky just says LOOT is build upon faulty advice.
( And if by "based on faulty advice" Picky means anything not from the Nexus....that would be..wow :blink: )
Looking at your quote you are just echoing what the moderators say. Individual thoughts have been replaced by group thoughts or so it seems....

Sorry, but no-one besides me knows what my load-order is, so the "general consensus" that has been build in LOOT as to what my load-order should be doesn't cut it completely : every load order is unique. Some of the mods I have installed are tweaked to my liking but put back in the load-order manually ( through Vortex, using their standard Nexus ID ). How is LOOT going to tell me where that tweaked mod should go if it can't detect what I have done to the mod?

Quote
[...] just create a rule [...]
Just pick it up and move it to the place I want, quicker, cleaner, less hassle.

It's borderline delusion of grandeur to think one has created the perfect mod manager, just by building it around a sorting mod ( which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT ). Nobody has an absolute monopoly on wisdom, I do not have that either, but I frown upon the method of LOrtex/VoOt telling how I should mod my game.

Moderators and ( the ) developer(s) are tired of us bringing this up every time they are trying to shut us down by saying (quote/un-quote) "Ultimately, this is a discussion that has been done to death, [...] not going to discuss the load order approach any further".
It's been discussed to death, shouldn't that just be a reason to listen to the people discussing it and maybe implement some of their ideas instead of brushing it under the carpet or shutting it down by ending discussions with a show stopping one-liner ?

( somewhere down the line I see Tannin42 jumping in and saying : can't change it, because otherwise Vortex and LOOT can't work together....sure. seperate them, that's all I want :) )

Love to hear everyone's thoughts on my opinion.
Cheers
-=DD=-

Quote
Pickysaurus wrote: I'm not sure why you think my statement is contradictory. I am saying that your own opinion or the recommendations from a mod page are posted by one person with limited knowledge, whereas the LOOT masterlist is curated by users pooling their combined knowledge of modding from experience. If you feel you know better than LOOT, I suggest you help the community out by telling the LOOT team what's wrong.

We often see posts like "I have this plugin and it says it must load last.". No. It doesn't. It has to load after anything that it conflicts with, yes, but beyond that, it doesn't have to be dead last. Here's an example. I was always under the impression that my bashed patch for Skyrim had to be last, but I am able to load my Dyndolod plugin after it without issues because the Dyndolod plugin doesn't touch any of the lists modified in the bash. Had I not used LOOT I'd still be pointlessly moving my bashed patch to the very bottom of the load order.

Vortex will let you adjust your load order using rules and groups. You may prefer the "bad habits" from the NMM days, but you barely need to mess with your plugins when using Vortex, as acidzebra said you can have a full load order with less than 10 custom rule/group assignments. You have to also consider that a lot of extra headaches for our mod authors come from users who think they know best and load things in a silly order. So we're making it easier on both users and authors by providing an auto-sort solution.

Quote
acidzebra wrote:
In response to post #82737178. #82738688 is also a reply to the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
DarkDominion wrote: @acidzebra,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.

Quote
[...] "LOOT is not infallible" [...] neither are you (or me) [...]
True, because I also never said that or mention that. But that's the typical reaction for someone who is a fan of the thing people frown upon.
One thing is for sure, and that is that it's my game and I would like to mod it via my ( load-order ) rules. Even if that isn't the perfect load order ( and assuming it didn't break my game, dôh ), it's still my load order for my game.

Your quote:

Quote
[...] I'd take large group consensus over individual opinion [...]

Quote from Pickysaurus a few posts back:

Quote
[...] chances are what you perceive as "correct" is not so or based on faulty advice. The LOOT masterlist is maintained by the entire Bethesda modding community so their combined knowledge is likely to be "more correct" that whatever you're basing your load order on [...]
Picky in contradicting himself by saying I as a member of said (Bethesda) modding community, and part of that group that has combined their knowledge, is more correct than I as an individual... My perception of a good load order is automatically false by his standards, because it's not from LOOT, so it must be based on faulty advise, advice which comes from that same (Bethesda) modding community who made LOOT into what it is. Actually Picky just says LOOT is build upon faulty advice.
( And if by "based on faulty advice" Picky means anything not from the Nexus....that would be..wow o_O )
Looking at your quote you are just echoing what the moderators say. Individual thoughts have been replaced by group thoughts or so it seems....

Sorry, but no-one besides me knows what my load-order is, so the "general consensus" that has been build in LOOT as to what my load-order should be doesn't cut it completely : every load order is unique. Some of the mods I have installed are tweaked to my liking but put back in the load-order manually ( through Vortex, using their standard Nexus ID ). How is LOOT going to tell me where that tweaked mod should go if it can't detect what I have done to the mod?

Quote
[...] just create a rule [...]
Just pick it up and move it to the place I want, quicker, cleaner, less hassle.

It's borderline delusion of grandeur to think one has created the perfect mod manager, just by building it around a sorting mod ( which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT ). Nobody has an absolute monopoly on wisdom, I do not have that either, but I frown upon the method of LOrtex/VoOt telling how I should mod my game.

Moderators and ( the ) developer(s) are tired of us bringing this up every time they are trying to shut us down by saying (quote/un-quote) "Ultimately, this is a discussion that has been done to death, [...] not going to discuss the load order approach any further".
It's been discussed to death, shouldn't that just be a reason to listen to the people discussing it and maybe implement some of their ideas instead of brushing it under the carpet or shutting it down by ending discussions with a show stopping one-liner ?

( somewhere down the line I see Tannin42 jumping in and saying : can't change it, because otherwise Vortex and LOOT can't work together....sure. seperate them, that's all I want :smile: )

Love to hear everyone's thoughts on my opinion.
Cheers
-=DD=-

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Pickysaurus wrote: I'm not sure why you think my statement is contradictory. I am saying that your own opinion or the recommendations from a mod page are posted by one person with limited knowledge, whereas the LOOT masterlist is curated by users pooling their combined knowledge of modding from experience. If you feel you know better than LOOT, I suggest you help the community out by telling the LOOT team what's wrong.

We often see posts like "I have this plugin and it says it must load last.". No. It doesn't. It has to load after anything that it conflicts with, yes, but beyond that, it doesn't have to be dead last. Here's an example. I was always under the impression that my bashed patch for Skyrim had to be last, but I am able to load my Dyndolod plugin after it without issues because the Dyndolod plugin doesn't touch any of the lists modified in the bash. Had I not used LOOT I'd still be pointlessly moving my bashed patch to the very bottom of the load order.

Vortex will let you adjust your load order using rules and groups. You may prefer the "bad habits" from the NMM days, but you barely need to mess with your plugins when using Vortex, as acidzebra said you can have a full load order with less than 10 custom rule/group assignments. You have to also consider that a lot of extra headaches for our mod authors come from users who think they know best and load things in a silly order. So we're making it easier on both users and authors by providing an auto-sort solution.
Could have created a ton of rules in the time you took to write this and never have to worry about that part of your load order again. Maybe write your own mod manager?

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Dark0ne wrote:

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which is what Vortex basically is : a shell for LOOT

By that logic, NMM, MO2 and Wrye Bash are simply "shells" for the plugin.txt file and Bethesda's built-in plugin management system. But obviously calling them that is disingenuous to the myriad other features and functions they have. The exact same can be said of Vortex.

Your whole comment leans heavily on the idea of the "loss of control". You're in no more or less control with Vortex than you are with any of the other mod managers for Bethesda games, simply the method by which you control your load order and plugin management has changed. If you don't like that change or you don't want to change your way of thinking then that's your prerogative but don't paint it as something that it isn't. All the mod managers have the same level of control - your issue is with how you can exercise that control. The idea behind Vortex is to reduce the amount of work people need to do to get a working and stable modded setup of their favourite games. If that's not as important to you as "drag and drop" mod management then you are not forced to use it and in fact, we'd rather you didn't use it because you're only going to make things worse for yourself (and by proxy, us) if you try and enforce your old modding standards on Vortex's.

You have plenty of choices available to you and we believe we've made the right decision in the path we've taken. Indeed, the vast uptake in Vortex over the past couple of years helps us to know we've taken the right path.

( Some how I had to read the

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post on @acidzebra's comment to see this : )
"Pickysaurus wrote:[...]If you feel you know better than LOOT, I suggest you help the community out by telling the LOOT team what's wrong.[...]"
I did , many times, they wouldn't listen when I said that whole extended groupthingy they had thought up wasn't going to work....but now it's gone. Yeah, but mostly they don't listen, because they are... well LOOT.

"You have to also consider that a lot of extra headaches for our mod authors come from users who think they know best and load things in a silly order"
Most headaches come from people who don't read the description page concerning how to install a mod. Some come running to the page asking about load order, but not many.

@acidzebra

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Could have created a ton of rules in the time you took to write this and never have to worry about that part of your load order again. Maybe write your own mod manager?

Not even bothering to respond any further on such a childish remark. Goodbye

@Dark0ne

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[...] The exact same can be said of Vortex [...]

Vortex is also being a shell for the plugin.txt file and Bethesda's built-in plugin management system on top of being a shell for Vortex.

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[...] Your whole comment leans heavily on the idea of the "loss of control" [...]

No it's not, it's what you assume.
I use Vortex and I really like it when it does the great chunks for me, I like the profile system, I like that it can handle so many games from the Nexus ( congrats btw on the 1000+, well deserved ! ), but I would like to have the final word on my own load order, just by dragging and dropping a few mods in the spot I want them, and not having to make a bunch of rules first. Just pick up, move, drop. That's it. Shouldn't be that hard to implement ?

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[...] You have plenty of choices available to you [...]

Yup, and I will certainly try those ( MO2 for instance ) out.

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[..] you are not forced to use it and in fact, we'd rather you didn't use it because you're only going to make things worse for yourself (and by proxy, us)[...]

Uhm, I have never bothered anyone with questions if I ran into a problem with Vortex ( except for bugs I found ), I fix it myself, and I help other members of the community out with issues they have thank-you-very-much....

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[...] we believe we've made the right decision in the path we've taken. Indeed, the vast uptake in Vortex over the past couple of years helps us to know we've taken the right path. [...]

And right you are Robin, the Nexus has grown and so has Vortex and I'm happy to be a part of this community. I only ask for a more tweakable ( is that even a word ) Vortex for us "veteran" modders.

Thank you for your time and please keep up the good work.
Cheers
-=DD-

Edited July 7, 2020 by DarkDominion

wilcar · July 7, 2020

darn it I had to remove a bunch of my mods ,because of update

ctuck61 · July 8, 2020

In response to post #82787568.

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The new version of Vortex required me to manage dozens of mod file conflicts for readme.txt and .ini files. I reinstalled the previous version and turned off the auto update and I am back to playing again.
Previous versions can be found at https://www.nexusmods.com/site/mods/1?tab=files
I still plan on using Vortex, it has been a very good manager for me with my 550 mods. Every once in a while they put out an update that makes me go.....hmmmmm Edited July 8, 2020 by ctuck61

Pickysaurus · July 8, 2020

In response to post #82787568. #82799968 is also a reply to the same post.

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You should never roll back to an old version of Vortex unless explicitly told to by one of our staff members, otherwise, this can cause damage to Vortex's internal data and create problems for you.

We have released 1.2.19 to fix this bug, please update and the extra conflict messages will no longer appear.

ctuck61 · July 8, 2020

In response to post #82787568. #82799968, #82808553 are all replies on the same post.

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That is interesting, anyway I have learned something new, thank you. Done this before and have not noticed an issue, maybe I got lucky. Regardless, I have shut off my automatic updates since roll back can apparently do some damage. Pretty sure Vortex will tell me when I am a bad boy, plus I will watch the change logs on the dashboard. Will bring in updates after they have been out for a couple of days.
Thank you for the fix. Have a great day.

zone22 · July 23, 2020

In response to post #82627708. #82643083 is also a reply to the same post.

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I can understand those reservations. Perhaps a different solution rather than directly supporting alternative packaging formats.

Perhaps Vortex could detect abnormal packaging and allow the user to rectify through an interface its structure before install. ModOrganizer 2 has a system that works pretty well for this.

What's new with Vortex? - 1.2.14 Update

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