Vortex Annoyances or Bugs? Question #1.

[babalooch23]

Hi all. First: I've been using Vortex/modding Skyrim Se for about 4 months. I have extensive IT experience, which helps, especially when it comes to finding/fixing. It also allows me to recognize 90% of what the MO2 ranters say about Vortex as babbling idiocy.

 

That said, my biggest annoyance is not with Vortex, but with the amount of awful "documentation" that surrounds it. This problem is not specific to Vortex. For Skyrim et al it is pervasive. This range of disorganized, to flat out childish, technical writing is as wide-spread as it is unacceptable.

 

However, almost the entire modding neighborhood being an unmitigated documentation/testing disaster doesn't prevent Vortex/Nexus from cleaning up its front yard. The "Knowledge Base": isn't. It would be better to delete most of the Knowledge Base, than keep it as is. The screen shots alone are alien to the current Vortex version.

 

The worst is: I know some of this is out of Vortex's control. The nonsense info about Vortex, even the well-meaning efforts, clog up the internet, making it doubly hard to find the good stuff.

 

Moving on, I have 3 questions about odd Vortex behaviors I see, and 1 about a "feature". This post has the first question. I have written my other questions and may post them later...we'll see how it goes.

 

Regarding FNIS: I followed the FNIS steps(eventually, given the awful docs), it is set up correctly, and animations work. Also, I have a bashed patch(may matter). I think all is well, but given the following I'm not sure:

 

1. Vortex seems to know when FNIS needs to run at the end of a mod deployment, and when it doesn't. Cool. That seems to track with the type of mod change being made. Also cool.

 

Why then, for example, when I "Deploy Mods" 3 times in a row, does FNIS run on the 2nd, and not on the 1st and 3rd deployment: when no mods/plugins have changed? I'm asking this due to my #3 question, and not because I'm pressing "Deploy Mods" multiple times for laughs. Besides, it shouldn't matter even if I were.

 

If I do it 2 times in a row, with nothing changing: it may run, it may not. I have run "Deploy Mods" 1-5 times in a row with no mod changes, as a test, and FNIS will run each time, sometimes, or not at all. This appears to be random. Why?

 

After a deployment that runs FNIS, sometimes I get a modal that pops up and asks me if I want to save FNIS files(delete files, etc. from the created FNIS Data mod), but not every time. Why? It makes sense that running FNIS at the end of a deployment would change files, necessitating another deployment. But, it's 50/50 on whether or not I will see a "Deploy Mods" message bar after a deployment chooses to run FNIS, and if I do, whether it will stick around if I don't click it near immediately. And, again, the save files modal shows up rarely, and without explanation on one deployment but not another, even when both follow FNIS deployments. Something ain't right here.

 

It makes me think there are left-over changes that were missed on deployment 1, and deployment 2..or 3, or 5, catches them. How do we know that deployed...means deployed? Should I deploy again, after a deployment that runs FNIS, every time, just to be sure? If there is reason behind any of this, why not message the user?

 

....

 

It's as I said in the title. These are annoyances mostly. But maybe they aren't. It's possible this or my other questions point to major bugs in their early stages. I say that because these behaviors I'm asking about only began with the last 2 versions.

 

I am willing to help in any way I can. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

[Zanderat]

I agree about the Vortex documentation and UI. Some of of it is confusing as heck to inexperienced folks. Also agree that the anti-Vortex propaganda is inaccurate and irrational (some experienced modders who should know better are leading the charge here. One highly regarded modder is especially guilty of this, going so far as to call Vortex "not a real mod manager". He once accused me of being a shill for Vortex because I corrected him on a misstatement about it. I have no idea what he even means, except that his own stubbornness is preventing him from having actually trying it out.)

[Pickysaurus]

Hey! Thanks for the detailed (and constructive feedback).

 

 

Hi all. First: I've been using Vortex/modding Skyrim Se for about 4 months. I have extensive IT experience, which helps, especially when it comes to finding/fixing. It also allows me to recognize 90% of what the MO2 ranters say about Vortex as babbling idiocy.

I have to say, this is refreshing :D

 

 

 

That said, my biggest annoyance is not with Vortex, but with the amount of awful "documentation" that surrounds it. This problem is not specific to Vortex. For Skyrim et al it is pervasive. This range of disorganized, to flat out childish, technical writing is as wide-spread as it is unacceptable. ~

However, almost the entire modding neighborhood being an unmitigated documentation/testing disaster doesn't prevent Vortex/Nexus from cleaning up its front yard. The "Knowledge Base": isn't. It would be better to delete most of the Knowledge Base, than keep it as is. The screen shots alone are alien to the current Vortex version.

If you can point out the weak/outdated points in our wiki I'll definitely look at improving them. That said, it is a wiki so anyone in the community can help by updating the info. As you can imagine it's quite hard to keep up with a constantly evolving app. If you think the Knowledge Base is no help at all, how would you recommend we preset help to the user?

 

 

1. Vortex seems to know when FNIS needs to run at the end of a mod deployment, and when it doesn't. Cool. That seems to track with the type of mod change being made. Also cool.

Why then, for example, when I "Deploy Mods" 3 times in a row, does FNIS run on the 2nd, and not on the 1st and 3rd deployment: when no mods/plugins have changed? I'm asking this due to my #3 question, and not because I'm pressing "Deploy Mods" multiple times for laughs. Besides, it shouldn't matter even if I were.

 

Are you able to provide a list of a few FNIS mods you have installed? I'll give this a try and see if I get the same result. I did look at this briefly the other day. There are specific circumstances where a FNIS deployment would happen, perhaps something is a bit off with the checks.

 

 

After a deployment that runs FNIS, sometimes I get a modal that pops up and asks me if I want to save FNIS files(delete files, etc. from the created FNIS Data mod), but not every time. Why? It makes sense that running FNIS at the end of a deployment would change files, necessitating another deployment. But, it's 50/50 on whether or not I will see a "Deploy Mods" message bar after a deployment chooses to run FNIS, and if I do, whether it will stick around if I don't click it near immediately. And, again, the save files modal shows up rarely, and without explanation on one deployment but not another, even when both follow FNIS deployments. Something ain't right here.

It makes me think there are left-over changes that were missed on deployment 1, and deployment 2..or 3, or 5, catches them. How do we know that deployed...means deployed? Should I deploy again, after a deployment that runs FNIS, every time, just to be sure? If there is reason behind any of this, why not message the user?

 

This probably shouldn't be happening. But I'd need to test it and see. On a normal FNIS deployment Vortex will update the files in a way that shouldn't prompt this dialogue.

 

I think, as I said, it's best to start with a list of your animation mods to give me a base for understanding/reproducing the issue.

[babalooch23]

I agree about the Vortex documentation and UI. Some of of it is confusing as heck to inexperienced folks. Also agree that the anti-Vortex propaganda is inaccurate and irrational (some experienced modders who should know better are leading the charge here. One highly regarded modder is especially guilty of this, going so far as to call Vortex "not a real mod manager". He once accused me of being a shill for Vortex because I corrected him on a misstatement about it. I have no idea what he even means, except that his own stubbornness is preventing him from having actually trying it out.)

Shill? This is not politics, but that's what these MO2 people's screeds bring to mind. Professional IT people don't resort to these tactics...unless they have a lot of insecurity about their own work/job security. That insecurity usually means that their work is awful, or, they are in serious fear of the other system and the changes it brings. That's what I see here, because I've seen it before: they know enough to know that objectively, Vortex has the superior design. They live in the space between that design's definition and its proper and full execution, and panic/lash out as that space grows steadily smaller. They spread FUD(Fear Uncertainty Doubt) about the other approach, because they can't win feature or merit arguments against it. That's why ultimately this is boring for me: I've seen it too many times.

[babalooch23]

Hey! Thanks for the detailed (and constructive feedback).

 

Hi all. First: I've been using Vortex/modding Skyrim Se for about 4 months. I have extensive IT experience, which helps, especially when it comes to finding/fixing. It also allows me to recognize 90% of what the MO2 ranters say about Vortex as babbling idiocy.

I have to say, this is refreshing :D

 

I call them as I see them. This is the way.

 

That said, my biggest annoyance is not with Vortex, but with the amount of awful "documentation" that surrounds it. This problem is not specific to Vortex. For Skyrim et al it is pervasive. This range of disorganized, to flat out childish, technical writing is as wide-spread as it is unacceptable. ~

 

However, almost the entire modding neighborhood being an unmitigated documentation/testing disaster doesn't prevent Vortex/Nexus from cleaning up its front yard. The "Knowledge Base": isn't. It would be better to delete most of the Knowledge Base, than keep it as is. The screen shots alone are alien to the current Vortex version.

If you can point out the weak/outdated points in our wiki I'll definitely look at improving them. That said, it is a wiki so anyone in the community can help by updating the info. As you can imagine it's quite hard to keep up with a constantly evolving app. If you think the Knowledge Base is not help at all, how would you recommend we preset help to the user?

Let's begin with getting rid of everything NMM. Early on I was fooled into reading X, only to realize it was for NMM, multiple times. If you've moved on, then do it. Nobody is being served by preserving any of that. The people that still use NMM don't need it, and new people can't use it. My advice: purge it all.

 

I am sorry but I don't agree that it is hard to keep up with an app at all. Many firms(mine even) do it without issue even on an evergreen schedule. Forgive me if I don't understand your relationship to the dev team correctly and if so, ignore the next 2 paras:

 

It's on the dev team to at least provide you correct, long form documentation of every single feature/update of Vortex as it is deployed (technically you should have it before coding starts, as a result of the design spec being updated). That's the professional standard. If they aren't doing that, raise hell.

 

Every professional programmer knows that they have at least 2 responsibilities besides coding: documentation and unit testing(creation if not execution). I was a project manager/technical architect before what I am now, so I've heard all the excuses, and kicked many asses in response. They remain: excuses. They need to do the job. Their boss needs to do his/hers. If you are the public face, then they need to support your efforts properly. Period.

 

It is in no way my job, as a user, to maintain Vortex's documentation. With that said, sure, I'll take a look, and post my changes here in a new thread. But you/the programmers cannot rely on me or anyone else long term. The problems above won't go away because I help you out. They'll only get worse.

 

I'd love to tell you how we do it. It beats the hell out of everything. But, I created that system personally, it's mine and you can't have it. :tongue: I can give you few hints: the cookbook approach(google it) is always good, but especially in this situation. People need functional instructions, not a book/TOC/index/bibliography/footnotes model. Step by step with easily modifiable steps and a small change log attached at the bottom to distinguish/remove/update steps per version may be ideal. Use colors. It's better than youtube-->can't be changed once deployed, and worse, misinforms users as things chance. Wikis-->disorganized book model whose disorganization only increases as things change. Forums don't work because the good gets buried by the noise, or by more good, as things change. One must think in terms of steps, not full outcomes or end to end processes or...books.

 

Design: pretend you have a spreadsheet for each recipe of your cookbook and each entry goes in a cell. Like a recipe: one side is ingredients the other, steps. If you wanna get slick: make the ingredient pieces highlight when a step that involves them is selected/moused over and vice versa. Bread crumb supported versions at the top, have the same mouseover behavior change relevant pieces on each side, but hold when version is clicked. Each little piece in a cell. Easy to modify as things change. Easy to come back to and recall wtf you/somebody did last time, and what needs to change. Let people comment on each piece, but tell them you'll ignore their comments if they aren't step-specific or ingredient-specific, then modify accordingly. You'll find that you benefit from this approach as much or more than users.

 

That's how I'd do this. Then again, I can do this. I don't know if you guys can due to budget, skill, 1000 other reasons.

1. Vortex seems to know when FNIS needs to run at the end of a mod deployment, and when it doesn't. Cool. That seems to track with the type of mod change being made. Also cool.

 

 

 

Why then, for example, when I "Deploy Mods" 3 times in a row, does FNIS run on the 2nd, and not on the 1st and 3rd deployment: when no mods/plugins have changed? I'm asking this due to my #3 question, and not because I'm pressing "Deploy Mods" multiple times for laughs. Besides, it shouldn't matter even if I were.

Are you able to provide a list of a few FNIS mods you have installed? I'll give this a try and see if I get the same result. I did look at this briefly the other day. There are specific circumstances where a FNIS deployment would happen, perhaps something is a bit off with the checks.

Sure:

1. FNIS

2. FNIS Sexy Moves

 

Tee hee. Hey, you asked. Honestly, what constitutes a FNIS mod? I have no other PC "moves" mods. But I suspect something like: "No BS AI Projectile Dodge" could be counted as a FNIS mod. Then again, I've seen Vortex run a FNIS update just for a single bodyslide mod.

 

I have "The Lost Valley"(for others: needs Quick Clean, then manual edit of 2 UDRs, PM me for steps). This is a player home, but it has side features like: the PC summons dragons. Animations may come from it, or they may just be reused from elsewhere. I have a few like that. Do they count? I also have things like Beyond Bruma and Reach, which I haven't seen yet, because I've been debugging, fixing, then starting new games this whole time(Everybody in Riverwood is sick of seeing me). No idea what goes on there and the potential effects on FNIS.

 

I have Amorous Adventures, because realism requires it. As PCs that kill most of the people we meet, and take their stuff, we are then supposed to freak out if we see a naked woman? Obtuse. Sorry, off-topic. Sexlab and its requirements: what a mess. I've spent a ton of time getting that to work, but now it is fully functional. All animations work, and I've used their very handy Tools mod to test them. (Yes, unintentional hilarity in that last sentence, but it stays)

 

Anyhow, beyond that, I don't know more than what the FNIS window shows re: animations loading, and guessing at which mods are responsible. I'm nowhere near the FNIS limits for animations or the sexlab limits.

 

I have created a 2 smaller, and 2 large zMerges(in order: landscape, water, armors, NPC replacers/fixers/adders). I have a tiny merged patch, 32k,(hence the zMerges) and a small 2mb bashed patch. Before I did the zMerges my bashed patch was near 1 GB and I couldn't get under 255 for a merged patch. I have made extensive use of Vortex's hilariously awesome "Mark as Light" feature. That feature alone makes Vortex superior. Nearly everything than can be marked, is, except for things that I think are hinky, and I want them to follow the rules I have set up exactly. I don't want them chucked in with the rest of the ESLs because right now my understanding of that system == black box.

 

I have what I think is a stable game. I don't see many CTDs. ILS is far more likely, and I think I've solved that. As I've said: The things I see are annoyances. My workaround: hit Deploy Mods again. Please, before you spend any dev time on me, help people who have bigger problems than I. These things don't stop me from playing: but they do activate my radar.

 

I think the best next step is for me to post my other questions soon, I gotta work too :smile:, because they are related. Rather than testing anything, please read them first, as they may shake loose something you can see. Again, this may all be nothing other than something I've done wrong with 1 of 300+ mods.

 

After a deployment that runs FNIS, sometimes I get a modal that pops up and asks me if I want to save FNIS files(delete files, etc. from the created FNIS Data mod), but not every time. Why? It makes sense that running FNIS at the end of a deployment would change files, necessitating another deployment. But, it's 50/50 on whether or not I will see a "Deploy Mods" message bar after a deployment chooses to run FNIS, and if I do, whether it will stick around if I don't click it near immediately. And, again, the save files modal shows up rarely, and without explanation on one deployment but not another, even when both follow FNIS deployments. Something ain't right here.

 

 

 

It makes me think there are left-over changes that were missed on deployment 1, and deployment 2..or 3, or 5, catches them. How do we know that deployed...means deployed? Should I deploy again, after a deployment that runs FNIS, every time, just to be sure? If there is reason behind any of this, why not message the user?

This probably shouldn't be happening. But I'd need to test it and see. On a normal FNIS deployment Vortex will update the files in a way that shouldn't prompt this dialogue.

 

I think, as I said, it's best to start with a list of your animation mods to give me a base for understanding/reproducing the issue.

 

See above.

Edited July 15, 2020 by babalooch23

[Pickysaurus]

Alright I installed some of the mods you mentioned and was able to replicate it.

 

For reference:

Mod Showcase: Animations Test

 

Exported from Vortex by Pickysaurus

 

Skyrim Special Edition Mods

 

 

 

 

Fores New Idles in Skyrim SE - FNIS SE - FNIS Behavior SE 7_6 v7.6

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from Nexus Mods

Created by fore for skyrimse (Animation)

No custom animation possible for Skyrim? Wrong. FNIS Behaviors allows to add different types of animations to the game: idles/poses, sequenced, furniture, paired, killmoves, creatures, and others.

 

FNIS Sexy Move SE vV7.2

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from Nexus Mods

Created by fore for skyrimse (Animation)

Tired of all females NPCs moving the same uninspired way? All females? No, not even that. Because your Housecarl and spouse Lydia even walks like men do. Argh! <br /><br />Now here is your solution:FNIS Sexy Move SE. FNIS Sexy Move will randomly select 1 out of 9 available walk and run animations for any female NPC that i

 

SexLabFrameworkSE_v163_BETA8

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from unknown source

Created by Unknown Author for skyrimse (Unknown)

 

 

Flower Girls SE and VR - Amorous Adventures FG SSE 3.4.1 v3.4.1

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from Nexus Mods

Created by Xider for skyrimse (Animation)

Provides adult themed content for the dragonborn. In a world beset by violence, Flower Girls aims to share love. It can be considered an all-in-one solution for those looking for both lighthearted entertainment, or the immersion of giving your character an active love life.

 

Flower Girls SE and VR v3.0.2

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from Nexus Mods

Created by Xider for skyrimse (Animation)

Provides adult themed content for the dragonborn. In a world beset by violence, Flower Girls aims to share love. It can be considered an all-in-one solution for those looking for both lighthearted entertainment, or the immersion of giving your character an active love life.

 

XP32 Maximum Skeleton Special Extended - XPMSSE v4.72

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from Nexus Mods

Created by Team XPMSE for skyrimse (Animation)

XP32 Maximum Skeleton Special Extended is the update of XP32 Maximum Skeleton Extended for Skyrim Special Edition.

 

Fores New Idles in Skyrim SE - FNIS SE - FNIS Creature Pack SE 7.6 v7.6

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from Nexus Mods

Created by fore for skyrimse (Animation)

No custom animation possible for Skyrim? Wrong. FNIS Behaviors allows to add different types of animations to the game: idles/poses, sequenced, furniture, paired, killmoves, creatures, and others.

 

FNIS Data v1.0.0

 

Installed 16/07/2020 from unknown source

Created by Unknown Author for skyrimse (Unknown)

 

 

 

 

 

After speaking with Tannin and checking the Vortex log files it seems it's not really a bug, but each time you deploy Vortex will read the animation files that exist and see if there are new ones or if their checksum values have changed since last time. Sometimes Vortex is denied access to the file (usually due to the VM having not closed unused files yet), so the best guess it can make is the animations may have changed and re-running FNIS is the safest way to ensure we don't leave you with potentially broken animation mods. The more animations you have, the more likely this is to happen. Although I had to spam deploy several times before it did.

 

You'll see an error a little like this in your Vortex.log file when it happens:

Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:04:28 GMT - error: failed to checksum path=meshes\actors\troll\animations\SexLabCreature\Troll_Holding_A2_S2.hkx, error=EBADF: bad file descriptor, read

 

I've not been able to replicate the "external changes" window popping up though. Thanks for the documentation feedback too :smile:

[rmm200]

I will say I turn of the auto-run FNIS on Deploy, and run it manually when I think it is needed based on what I have added.

But then I like to think I know what I am doing. Not the best path for everyone.

 

 

Consequences:

 

FNIS run not needed but runs. Lost time if it runs.

FNIS run needed but missed. T-Pose in game and immediately obvious. Fix: Stop and run FNIS. Never saw a crash from this.

 

Worse issue: Using invalid animation. Note: All Skyrim LE .hkx files are invalid on Skyrim SE until converted.

[HadToRegister]

I leave Auto Run FNIS OFF and have never turned it on.

It's enough to run it ONCE and be done with it.
Unless you install new animations, you never need to run it again

[AugustaCalidia]

Following rmm200 and HTR's advice, I run FNIS Auto Run only once and then turn it off. Only if I install a new animation do I run it again. Since I have very few animation mods, I recognize that OP may have issues which this solution does not address. However, this has worked very well for me.

Edited July 16, 2020 by AugustaCalidia