Trying to understand

[MarchinBunny]

gaslighting 101 right there (above).

Says the one who calls literally everything that is disagreeable as trollish or gaslighting. I sometimes wish you would just stop doing that and learn to just ignore comments you dislike or disagree with instead of making crap up.

[showler]

 

gaslighting 101 right there (above).

Says the one who calls literally everything that is disagreeable as trollish or gaslighting. I sometimes wish you would just stop doing that and learn to just ignore comments you dislike or disagree with instead of making crap up.

It's easier if you just put them on ignore.

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

gaslighting 101 right there (above).

Says the one who calls literally everything that is disagreeable as trollish or gaslighting. I sometimes wish you would just stop doing that and learn to just ignore comments you dislike or disagree with instead of making crap up.

 

you're having a pop at me for calling you out on trolling and gaslighting? there isn't a single post from you in 90 pages where you haven't attempted to troll people, derail the conversation or gaslight.

 

not a single one.

 

you don't contribute to discussions, you derail them because you are a contrarian. i've stated this before, because it's true.

 

you argue minutae that is nothing to do with the topic at hand. you do this, relentlessly. it's what you do.

 

*shrug*

Edited July 31, 2021 by 1ae0bfb8

[xrayy]

the value of trust and the consequences of cancelling a partnership over a decade seems to me clearly undererstimated by nexumods. we will see if i'm wrong with my estimate in the next months and years. it is easy to destroy a glass, full with good, unique wine. but it is very difficult to fix it and to fill it again with the same or at least comparable wine. you can drink a can with coca cola and red bull, but it will never be the same as if you drink this wine or if it is simply missing or not available.

 

it seems that the time has come that people need coke and red bull instead of good wine. ok, i respect that and i wish you a good time with this crap :wink: many must and will drink their wine in future without nexusmods...

this change of taste was just a bit surprising for many mod authors.

[Arthmoor]

If you actually paid attention to the point of my comment, you would know it doesn't matter what part you disagree with. The point still stands. This is the system they want to put in place, and you disagree with that system or it's requirements that they feel they need. You disagree that it's required, and they disagree with you and feel it is required. It's not spite, you and they just disagree. And rather than pulling the abort switch before they hit the start line because some disagree which they already knew some would, they would rather at least get it out the door, because maybe it will become more apparent to some of you why they made the choices they have when it's actually being used.

 

Edit: Also, me mentioning collections in my last comment was more about past negativity about them, even before the information about not being able to delete mods fully. This is only the newest argument against collections in the way they want to implement them. And that isn't me pointing to anyone specific. Just that they are here. There are people who disagree with collections as a whole ... that is a fact. And I can even prove it simply by going back and quoting some mod authors. There have even been some mods removed where their reasoning specifically says as much. Not everyone here is just mad about not being able to delete files, some never liked the idea of collections at all.

The point of your comment was to erect strawmen and then light them on fire for all to see. A bit like the Burning of King Olaf ritual in Solitude. A fantastic and entertaining display, but ultimately pointless and only serves to inflame things (pun intended).

 

I think I've been pretty clear that for most of the folks who are angry that the issue is solely about the right to delete files, which a site's ToS cannot legally prevent you from doing. If Collections (aka modpacks) themselves were the issue, this exodus of users would have happened 3 years ago when they first told us of their intentions to impose such a system on everyone. Indeed, some mod authors who are very strongly opposed to the idea did leave at the time. Were they just being crybabies or did they see this coming at the time and got out quietly while they knew they could?

 

I doubt I need to tell you that I personally do not support the implementation of Collections as Nexus has described them. They're not "lists" as the staff is trying to portray them. They're not "collections" as defined by how Steam Workshop does them. They are in essence actual modpacks, at least as far as BGS games are concerned.

 

None of the arguments they've made about how the system is set up are compelling on a technical level. Actual DBAs I've worked with in the past have told me flat out that anyone who says an "arbitrary" file deletion will damaged the integrity of the database is a liar. The only exception being if the site in question is storing files as actual blob data in the database, but that practice fell out of favor in the late 90s. So Nexus trying to tie the issue of file deletions to the Collections system is a bogus issue. It's a red herring. It has no technical validity. THEY created this association, not me, not other authors, THEM.

 

All I want and all I continue to want is the rightful ability to decide which versions of my work are available to the public. That's it. It's not a lot to ask, and the fact that they're legally obligated to retain the ability to delete files in certain cases means they do indeed have the technical means to accomplish this. Scale has no impact on that. If deletions damage the database, the scale of those deletions is irrelevant. But we all know this isn't about the integrity of the database. It's about control, and mod author rights. Quite literally, as others have pointed out, it's about who actually owns the files. Does Nexus? Or do the mod authors? When you can honestly answer this question then you know where the problem truly lies.

 

In any case, you've made it abundantly clear you are not here to seek understanding. You're here to drown people in words the way Nexus did by defending their every move even though you have to know they're in the wrong here.

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

gaslighting 101 right there (above).

Says the one who calls literally everything that is disagreeable as trollish or gaslighting. I sometimes wish you would just stop doing that and learn to just ignore comments you dislike or disagree with instead of making crap up.

It's easier if you just put them on ignore.

 

Ya, honestly ... I normally don't like doing that because generally I try to see the good in all people, as I know some can just get certain ways over certain subjects and they normally wouldn't be like that ... but they are just so ridiculous at this point and just literally see every disagreement as trolling. So they will be the first I will add to that list. Shame I actually have to use it here, but I am tired of their crap.

 

 

 

The point of your comment was to erect strawmen and then light them on fire for all to see. A bit like the Burning of King Olaf ritual in Solitude. A fantastic and entertaining display, but ultimately pointless and only serves to inflame things (pun intended).

What I said wasn't even refuting anything. So I don't know what you mean when you are mentioning straw men, without a refutation there can be no fallacy. The only thing I was pointing out was how they, as in ... the site owners likely view things and their choice on how they are approaching things likely has nothing to do with spite.

 

 

 

I think I've been pretty clear that for most of the folks who are angry that the issue is solely about the right to delete files, which a site's ToS cannot legally prevent you from doing.

And I think I have been pretty clear, there isn't really a difference on what part you disagree with, in the point I was making. Whether you disagree with collections entirely, or just the ability to not delete files, their goals and views do not align with yours. They are not going to just change their mind without actually getting it out the door for it to be tried first and get feedback from those who are willing to try it. As for the ToS, I actually already looked it up myself, it's not illegal ... at least no that I could find.

 

 

 

They're not "lists" as the staff is trying to portray them.

Assuming it works in the way I believe it does, it would technically literally be a list, and when I say literal ... I do mean literal.

 

 

 

They are in essence actual modpacks, at least as far as BGS games are concerned.

If you consider all lists of mods to be modpacks, then sure. Call them whatever you want. But your mod ... as in the actual contents of it, isn't included in such a list. And so making this kind of argument seems pretty irrelevant to me. A text file with a list of mod URLs that is used to function as a "modpack" ... is still just a list of URLs.

 

 

 

So Nexus trying to tie the issue of file deletions to the Collections system is a bogus issue.

Or at least as far as you know. Personally, while I do run my own site and it does have a database, my knowledge outside of simple maintenance of it is pretty thin. I do know however, that installing a ton of plugins in wordpress, and then uninstalling them ... can be bad for the database, at least .. so I have heard. It's tough to really say anything on this matter as I have never run a site like Nexus that stores 2TBs of data every month, 1000+ files per day. I would also hesitate to just ask someone and instantly believe them even if they do work with databases, there is no guarantee they are correct or even have experience with such a large file systems. Personally, I would have to get many views on the matter before claiming it's bogus.

 

 

 

Quite literally, as others have pointed out, it's about who actually owns the files. Does Nexus? Or do the mod authors? When you can honestly answer this question then you know where the problem truly lies.

Owners can give permission to others to redistribute their content. They can even give a perpetual license to do so. They can give permissions to edit, perform, display .. etc. Giving someone those permissions doesn't give them ownership, but it does give them the right to do what you gave them permission to do. And if you gave permission perpetually ... then it means you can't take it back so easily, at least not legally or without breaking the contract.

 

This is one of those cases where, you should read the contract before you decide to use a site. In fact, even facebook has a clause in their ToS that is very similar and allows them to use whatever content you have posted, even after you have deleted it. This isn't nearly as uncommon as you seem to think.

 

 

 

In any case, you've made it abundantly clear you are not here to seek understanding. You're here to drown people in words the way Nexus did by defending their every move even though you have to know they're in the wrong here.

You are right, I am not here to seek understanding, and neither are you. Pot calling the kettle black.

(Edit: I am just giving my views on the matter, as you are.)

[Guest deleted34304850]

gaslighting 101, right there.

[showler]

 

Assuming it works in the way I believe it does, it would technically literally be a list, and when I say literal ... I do mean literal.

From the limited information we have so far we know of at least three components to a Collection:

 

1. A list of specific files for the Mod Manager to download.

 

2. Instructions on how to install those files (Order to install, FOMOD options to choose, or whatever other means of controlling the installation are needed)

 

3. Instructions regarding conflict resolution rules to implement (what mods need to override other mods, what specific files in the mod need to override other mods contrary to the overall mod override rules, files that need to be hidden if needed).

 

So far, that's all we know, I think. It could go much deeper than that if they include the ability to automate the use of tools like Merge Plugins, Wrye Bash, Nemesis, DyndoLOD, etc. But they've said they will not go deeper into the functioning of Collections until their own testing is done and the beta period approaches.

 

There's been a lot taken out of context, a lot said that is taken as an absolute rule when it is actually intended to be a guideline. The confusion is deep regarding all this. Personally I put most of the blame on Nexus for screwing up the announcement and some of the blame on the people who went full paranoia immediately.

 

As for file deletion restrictions. They aren't needed to make Collections work, they're needed to make Collections keep working.

[Arthmoor]

You are right, I am not here to seek understanding, and neither are you. Pot calling the kettle black.

(Edit: I am just giving my views on the matter, as you are.)

Then you have nothing of value to contribute to this thread other than obviously shilling for Nexus and 1ae0bfb8 is 100% correct about your intentions here.

 

For example:

 

 

I do know however, that installing a ton of plugins in wordpress, and then uninstalling them ... can be bad for the database, at least .. so I have heard.

In even making this comparison you demonstrate zero knowledge of the subject. Wordpress plugins are not at all the same thing as a file uploaded to a site. The plugin is designed to operate on the site itself and not on the arbitrary files uploaded to it.

 

As for me, I seek to understand why Nexus is employing draconian measures that are not technically necessary if the system is being run competently. So far they have given nothing to show they're running it competently.

[Neonsquare]

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Personally I put most of the blame on Nexus for screwing up the announcement and some of the blame on the people who went full paranoia immediately.Â

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Let's stick to facts. There was no announcement, not until after ~100 pages of discourse in the mod author restricted section of the forum. The changes were implemented stealthily, and no amount of damage control can change that.