Big changes for the Nexus Mod Manager and the introduction of Tannin42, our new head of NMM development

abbyshire · October 15, 2016

I am SO excited to see this! Tannin42 and his Mod Organizer are amazing -- I can't wait to see what he dreams up for NMM. Such great news!

Dark0ne · October 15, 2016

In response to post #43256435.

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I would argue that MO is indeed much more popular, and even perhaps more widely used than NMM as far as Skyrim/FO4 modding goes.

More people login to NMM to download Skyrim mods each month than have downloaded MO through the entire course of its life on the Nexus. MO is indeed popular, especially with the active users in the community who actually comment (but who represent a small fraction of the total user base of the site). But the majority are still using NMM.

While I understand you said you download MO through GitHub and therefore your download stats won't have been added to the Nexus (although, if you downloaded MO at least once from the Nexus, it will have been counted), I'd wager that there are more people who use NMM without logging in each month (whose stats, likewise, wouldn't be counted) than there are people who download MO from GitHub rather than through the Nexus, so it balances that discrepancy out.

This doesn't negate what else you've said in your post. It just seems to be a common myth that MO is more widely used than NMM, which simply isn't true. Edited October 15, 2016 by Dark0ne

Tannin42 · October 15, 2016

In response to post #43236125. #43237275, #43237355, #43239080, #43258065 are all replies on the same post.

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No, as PirateZ86 said it is impossible. MO v2 may work with Skyrim SE with very little extra work but even that would have to be done by someone else.

@Eman17j: I assume you're talking about a dotNet application like the papyrus compiler. Those are actually multi-platform executables that support both 32bit and 64bit but you can force them to run in 32bit mode even on a 64bit systems.

Both SkyrimSE and MO are native applications that can't simply be toggled, they support either one or the other. SSE will run be 64-bit only and thus not work with MO v1.

elezraita · October 15, 2016

In response to post #43254180. #43255095, #43255410 are all replies on the same post.

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Sharlikran wrote:
This is best viewed from the forum.

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If you think MOs vfs is useless or if you think symbolic / hard links are wrong or direct installation is bad you just don't have all the facts or haven't considered how others want to mod.

Which is why I want to offer alternatives with the new manager and not presume to know what's best for each individual.

For me it's not about whether or not vfs or SymLinks are better, worse, or more efficient. Sometimes when I share an opinion it's not to convince someone I am right. I'm not always trying to prove anything one way or another. I just explain how I feel about it, and leave it at that.

I'm seeing a lot of good reasons about why people like things and what they want or don't want in a mod manager. Which is fine because everyone has their personal preference. My personal preference is that the files are copied directly to the data folder. However, that has nothing to do with the features of the mod manager itself.

What I'd like to suggest is to watch Gopher's video titled The ELDER SCROLLS Formula #1: Why do people love TES? Because in the video Gopher is suggesting that Bethesda needs to go back and look at all the things about Elder scrolls that people loved. People always talk about what they want added because they feel it's missing or what needs to be removed because they hate it. However, Gopher says that it's a sad fact that people don't talk about the things they are really happy with. So what things about mod managers am I happy with? What things are you happy with? What really provides you with what you need to install and manage mods?

All features in yellow are not offered by my current mod manager and would be nice features to have.

What I like when managing my mods:
Download the file form the nexus by clicking on the webpage
Enable or completely disable how files are installed to the Data folder (vfs as mentioned)
Move a file higher or lower in the list of installers to overwrite files. Because uninstalling files and overwriting files in a certain order is difficult and can easily be done wrong. Which means you have to start over. Not to mention that it is easier to know where to drag the file and which files need to be overwritten when you can visually see conflicting files.
See at a glance from the list of installers (colored indicator or icon) when files from the archive differ from the files in the data folder
Manual way to refresh the CRC tracking of files in the Data folder, installer folders, and archives
Tracking mod to monitor an external installation (EXE installer or manual install) when finished all new files tracked are converted into an archive or organized into a folder for instalation. Eliminating the need for the external installer.
Report of all installed plugin files (copied to clipboard)
Localization via Poedit
Report of all installed mods downloaded from the nexus (name of the mod installed - copied to clipboard)
Add my own custom categories I can use to organize my mods
Organize mods by pre-determined categories like those used on the Nexus. Hide empty categories to avoid clutter.
Double click the mod to view the archive's contents.
Open the location of the archive or folder in the windows explorer
Unpack the archive into a folder and install the files from the folder instead (without closing the mod manager)
Rename or Delete the archive or folder
Tell the mod manager what folder should be considered the Data folder (Where the plugin and resources are) Because I sometimes see archives with nested folders that I'm not interested in like "My Mod\it has a name\I want to have screen shots\then the plugin and other files"
Option to remove superfluous folders previously mentioned but to the mod manager it's still considered the same file and same version I downloaded from the Nexus.
A way to indicate which file and version it is if the information wasn't or isn't available to suppress warnings
Display a list of all the files (from the installer folder or archive) with their directories that I can cut and paste anywhere I may need (copy to clipboard)
A way to specify any files (not pre-determined, my choice) just anything I don't want (advanced users only)
Suggested options offered to skip certain file types (readme files for example)
Track orphan files in the data folder but not part of an installer (the ck built a new face gen file or topic info file)
Tabs or some way to see at a glance
all the files in the archive
which files match what is in the data folder and the archive or folder
which files are missing (I didn't skip them)
which files are not the same in the data folder and the archive or folder (I edited the plugin in the CK so it changed or the CK compiled a script)
a list of all files with the same name and extension (they will conflict) from any folder, archive, or BSA/BA2 file
any skipped files
A way to install files by
folder - no script - (00 Main, 01 Textures, 02 Alt Textures, 03 Body Slide, 04 Script Extender Plugins)
Install BAIN package
by OBMM
by C based scripts
NMM XML or Fomod
any other format that has been previously available
A wysiwyg installer creator (BAT) that lets me
create a complex install archive by specifying folders and dragging and dropping files
a way to add pics and descriptions as needed
Complex enough to cover any situation and provide one file for users to download
A way to detect any plugin, texture, or file and only offer certain install options based on installed files (don't show a patch for Moda when it isn't installed)
I don't want to manually edit an xml or script file I want it built for me
Ways to link to programs I find useful for modding such as LOOT, xEdit, NifSkope, Photoshop, Blender (create custom links as well as default options)
A watchdog of sorts (not necessarily a DLL of the same name) that will notice when a file is added or removed from in the data folder and updates my list of plugins. The routine wouldn't auto activate the mod but would cleanse my load order
alters plugins.txt or loadorder.txt when applicable
loadorder.txt not used by Fallout 4 and future games with star load order
If a mod author or user changes the ESM flag (of an ESP file) of a plugin the mod manager automatically moves the plugin into the ESM group above all the ESP files and alters load order files
A watchdog that sees I removed an installer (file or folder) but the files are in the data folder and removes the files. Only tracks files installed with the mod manager and any remaining files become orphaned files.
A way to clean out the data folder of all files that are not installed by the game or Construction Kit (vanilla install) Also leaving behind all files currently in the data folder from an active installer archive or folder
A way to see the save game and which files were installed at the time the save game was made
A way to build a report of which mods were used in the save game (copy to clipboard)
A way to make different folders for my save games (set SLocalSavePath in game's INI to avoid copying files)
Copy save games to other folders I have created (Other play through)
Colored indicators to show
which mods in the save game are present and in the same location as the save game's header
present but at a different location
missing from my load order
separate color to show all files are present and have the exact same load order as the save game's header
A report that shows mods that have been added or removed from my load order compared to the save game's header
Activate only the files in the save game's header
Sort the mods (excluding missing mods) in the same order as indicated in the save game header. Remaining files append to end of the list.
Rename the mod in the save game header (When mod author changes the name but it's the same mod) unless author indicates not to because of extensive changes (doing the same to script extender co-saves)
Display the screen shot from the save game header so I know how I want to organize the file
A way to alter the INI files with commonly suggested settings that I can check and uncheck to apply them without knowing where the files are located on my HD
A way to restore the default INI files
FO4Edit, TES5Edit, xEdit for short, just does what it does well. It doesn't sort or install files. I don't think Wrye ever preferred that Wrye Bash had mod management features. He and I only talked a few times and I don't remember for sure. However, some people wanted features not available from other mod managers. What if Wrye Bash just built the Bash Patch and did it well?

Currently "ONE" volunteer is refactoring Wrye Bash and has darn near completely rewritten the entire program. However, none of that has anything to do with building the Bash Patch. The current volunteer looks for ways to remove binaries and unneeded features in ways to benefit the program and its functionality. I wouldn't want to see all the development that has gone into Wrye Bash go to waste. What if Wrye Bash was separated into Mod Manager and Bash Patcher? While I can't write in Python and although I am not a current Wrye developer, I do work on the Wrye iterations for all the various games both for personal benefit and to benefit those who enjoy using Wrye. I know for the most part what files have to do with the the Patcher routines having dome some work on it.

Do you want to start from scratch? How long would it take to start form scratch and provide the above features? Could you use existing code and add to it?

Quote
elezraita wrote: Sharlikran, while I'd say that about 95% of these features are available in MO, interestingly enough, it was fairly apparent that you were referring to Bash. I have an unrelated question though. I was under the impression that the xEdit scripting language was something related to Python. I'd heard that somewhere. Obviously, I was mistaken, as you claim not to know python. So, what language is it, and where does one go to learn it?

Quote
Sharlikran wrote: Irrespective of what I am talking about I listed features I like, that's it. Hard not to use examples of what I am familiar with.

I don't know Python but I can manipulate the code to do extremely basic things to maintain Wrye. Mainly I update record definitions from xEdit to Wrye Bash/Smash/Flash.

The scripting in xEdit is Delphi/Pascal syntax not Python. No way to learn it really unless you refer to Delphi references I suppose. The scripting functions available are listed here.

Thank you.

MissLys · October 15, 2016

Greetings!

I've done a bit of modding for my own gameplay of Skyrim and having just gotten into Fallout recently, I've already considered a few things for FO4. Still, I'm an infant when it comes to modding in the grand scheme of things and I've done what I've done in an effort to learn. I've learned much about CK but am nowhere near acceptable to the majority of advanced modders where scripting is concerned.

Still...

I think there is one factor that might be being overlooked in the whole "new NMM" discussion and it is thus:

If someone wants some cool whizbang in their game that can only be gotten through a mod then, guess what? They either do without it or they LEARN how to use mods in their game. We all know what that means, don't we? As soon as you decide to tackle the foreign (to a newbie) idea of modding a game, you must inevitably begin to learn how mods interact with each other because, like it or not, there will be conflicts from load order to whatever else. Yes, I know MO handles things differently in an effort to minimize this but you get the point. You want it? It might cost you a little time to learn how to use your new toy...

Here's the rub...in learning how to make your mods work and getting all of them to play nicely, you begin to learn a bit about the internals of the game that someone who doesn't and would never mod a game (such as my fiance) would never know or care to understand. I know people who don't know the difference between a texture and a mesh and think I am insane for "wasting my energy" picking apart some problem I've developed for myself rather than just play the game as the creator of said game intended, warts and all.

So, in the end, yes, we need to consider a polishing of NMM that will be user-friendly all the way around. As you do so, however, please remember that "user-friendly" to a brand new modder and someone who is even a few weeks - and quite possibly one or two conflicts - into it are drastically different skill sets. I go back to what I said in the beginning...if you want the shiny doo-dad in your game, you learn what is required in order to use it properly.

It is in this light that I suggest the development team strongly considers an upgrade in what knowledge base they expect from their consumers. We are savvy enough to have figured out how to wade through the eel-infested waters to get that shiny new mod to work on our base game and added more mods in the process than we ever realized existed only a few short hours/days/weeks ago. While it would be fabulous to have everything as idiot-proof as possible in a new manager, it is the inevitable idiot part of that phrase that is important because that's where we learn. In other words, no matter how simple or user-friendly you try to make the thing, there will still be a learning curve and there will still be that small group of people who can't even handle the simplified version. Perhaps those are the few who don't care enough to learn what is required to mod a game?

Raise your expectations of our knowledge of whatever game it is that we love so much! Expect that our wish to embellish said game will drive us to try new things and, in doing so, learn. When it comes down to it, the community needs a new manager and y'all are expecting that new manager to do much more than the old one. This only means that we consumers need to step up our game a little and follow you through the passage into the new land.

Shoot, if we've already been tempted by shiny new things for our game, we're certainly going to be tempted by a shiny new souped-up system to handle our mod collections!

My suggestion to the end of how to make this easier on the consumer is multi-fold and, I think, utilizes much of what we already enjoy in the community:

1. Gather a group of volunteers from your beta testing who are willing to be a Q&A team when the rollout happens. Modders, even the most grumpy, are amazing when it comes to explaining things to people when asked in a polite manner. Use the willing talent in the community to help everyone learn the new system's ins and outs. The more I, for instance, learn by asking a question or two, the more I'll be able to help someone else, etc.

2. Someone mentioned Gopher in the comments and he is a perfect example for this point. Grab a few willing folks to put together a step-by-step video which explains how the new system works. Like it or not, those of us who want that shiny new mod know that we will end up watching a video, or 30, at some point in order to learn something that strikes our fancy. Trial and error when in the trenches as I was learning the CK and a few videographers who were good at breaking processes down to the core in order to teach them were invaluable. Gopher is a good example of this, as are a number of others.

3. This isn't something I have noticed except with relation to Bethesda's help files for the CK, but, put together a real manual for the new manager. I understood NMM quickly enough because I'd already used Steam for some of my first Skyrim mods but when I was first learning the CK, I used Bethesda's site quite often to do tutorials and track down answers...it was of immeasurable help. So dedicate a little space to a written (online, of course) version of what someone does in a VLOG and support both with a Q&A team that can point to this section or that to help us find our own answers. This saves the bulk of their time for the special needs cases such as the bug that pops up and takes days to track down.

I hope y'all find this useful! I look forward to seeing the new manager :)

Warsadle · October 15, 2016

In response to post #43224730. #43229715, #43231195, #43231225, #43234520, #43237900, #43238095, #43248580, #43248780, #43256345, #43256845, #43258870 are all replies on the same post.

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NMO = Nexus Mod Organiser is a straight foreword combination of the names, okay.

NNMM = New Nexus Mod Manager, too many repeated letters in the acronym to be used as a short hand name.

NexMO = Nexus Mod Organiser, good name and it rolls of the tong easy.

NeMO = Nexus Mod Organiser, also a good name, and the acronym is good.

NOMM = Up to readers interpretation of how the acronym works, mine would be
Nexus Organising Mod Manager, funny name though!

What I would use?

Mod Library Organiser (MLO (pronunciation: EM-Low))

captainoftheobvious · October 15, 2016

Ack. I just hope it works more like NMM, not MO. I tried using MO for a long time with skyrim, but I never got to grips with it. It's not just difficult to use, but difficult to get to grips with too.

Lets see how this pans out, however. Cautious optimism is the order of the day here.

captainoftheobvious · October 15, 2016

In response to post #43260485.

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MissLys wrote: Greetings!

I've done a bit of modding for my own gameplay of Skyrim and having just gotten into Fallout recently, I've already considered a few things for FO4. Still, I'm an infant when it comes to modding in the grand scheme of things and I've done what I've done in an effort to learn. I've learned much about CK but am nowhere near acceptable to the majority of advanced modders where scripting is concerned.

Still...

I think there is one factor that might be being overlooked in the whole "new NMM" discussion and it is thus:

If someone wants some cool whizbang in their game that can only be gotten through a mod then, guess what? They either do without it or they LEARN how to use mods in their game. We all know what that means, don't we? As soon as you decide to tackle the foreign (to a newbie) idea of modding a game, you must inevitably begin to learn how mods interact with each other because, like it or not, there will be conflicts from load order to whatever else. Yes, I know MO handles things differently in an effort to minimize this but you get the point. You want it? It might cost you a little time to learn how to use your new toy...

Here's the rub...in learning how to make your mods work and getting all of them to play nicely, you begin to learn a bit about the internals of the game that someone who doesn't and would never mod a game (such as my fiance) would never know or care to understand. I know people who don't know the difference between a texture and a mesh and think I am insane for "wasting my energy" picking apart some problem I've developed for myself rather than just play the game as the creator of said game intended, warts and all.

So, in the end, yes, we need to consider a polishing of NMM that will be user-friendly all the way around. As you do so, however, please remember that "user-friendly" to a brand new modder and someone who is even a few weeks - and quite possibly one or two conflicts - into it are drastically different skill sets. I go back to what I said in the beginning...if you want the shiny doo-dad in your game, you learn what is required in order to use it properly.

It is in this light that I suggest the development team strongly considers an upgrade in what knowledge base they expect from their consumers. We are savvy enough to have figured out how to wade through the eel-infested waters to get that shiny new mod to work on our base game and added more mods in the process than we ever realized existed only a few short hours/days/weeks ago. While it would be fabulous to have everything as idiot-proof as possible in a new manager, it is the inevitable idiot part of that phrase that is important because that's where we learn. In other words, no matter how simple or user-friendly you try to make the thing, there will still be a learning curve and there will still be that small group of people who can't even handle the simplified version. Perhaps those are the few who don't care enough to learn what is required to mod a game?

Raise your expectations of our knowledge of whatever game it is that we love so much! Expect that our wish to embellish said game will drive us to try new things and, in doing so, learn. When it comes down to it, the community needs a new manager and y'all are expecting that new manager to do much more than the old one. This only means that we consumers need to step up our game a little and follow you through the passage into the new land.

Shoot, if we've already been tempted by shiny new things for our game, we're certainly going to be tempted by a shiny new souped-up system to handle our mod collections!

My suggestion to the end of how to make this easier on the consumer is multi-fold and, I think, utilizes much of what we already enjoy in the community:

1. Gather a group of volunteers from your beta testing who are willing to be a Q&A team when the rollout happens. Modders, even the most grumpy, are amazing when it comes to explaining things to people when asked in a polite manner. Use the willing talent in the community to help everyone learn the new system's ins and outs. The more I, for instance, learn by asking a question or two, the more I'll be able to help someone else, etc.

2. Someone mentioned Gopher in the comments and he is a perfect example for this point. Grab a few willing folks to put together a step-by-step video which explains how the new system works. Like it or not, those of us who want that shiny new mod know that we will end up watching a video, or 30, at some point in order to learn something that strikes our fancy. Trial and error when in the trenches as I was learning the CK and a few videographers who were good at breaking processes down to the core in order to teach them were invaluable. Gopher is a good example of this, as are a number of others.

3. This isn't something I have noticed except with relation to Bethesda's help files for the CK, but, put together a real manual for the new manager. I understood NMM quickly enough because I'd already used Steam for some of my first Skyrim mods but when I was first learning the CK, I used Bethesda's site quite often to do tutorials and track down answers...it was of immeasurable help. So dedicate a little space to a written (online, of course) version of what someone does in a VLOG and support both with a Q&A team that can point to this section or that to help us find our own answers. This saves the bulk of their time for the special needs cases such as the bug that pops up and takes days to track down.

I hope y'all find this useful! I look forward to seeing the new manager :)

TL: DR. Edited October 15, 2016 by captainoftheobvious

marmo1233 · October 15, 2016

Good luck with your new job!

I cannot wait to see your work

hex77x · October 15, 2016

In response to post #43224730. #43229715, #43231195, #43231225, #43234520, #43237900, #43238095, #43248580, #43248780, #43256345, #43256845, #43258870, #43261500 are all replies on the same post.

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Gaming Extras Tool Designed As Totally Awesome Stuff Stuffer.

Big changes for the Nexus Mod Manager and the introduction of Tannin42, our new head of NMM development

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