Sorry to see more great mods removed

[Crimsomrider]

 

A mod with a price tag is not a mod anymore, it's a product. Then the one who created such product is no longer entitled to "Oh, I'm sorry guys. My grandma died and I have to take 3 eternities to recover. Update will come in 2067". It means that once your work is a product, you are expected to respect your customers and you are expected to ditch out constant support and troubleshooting. No matter how rude a customer is or how annoying and stupid they are, you no longer have a right to just ban someone if they're rude.

 

Does that sound like fun to you ? The minute you make a product with a price tag, the customers own you. THEY... OWN... YOU! The customer is always right.

It's rather clear that you don't seem to fully grasp the relationship between customer and content producer. Companies are free to refuse service to anyone, so long as the reason for that refusal of service is not deemed discrimination against a protected class. Further, companies are not required, in any way, to continually update or offer continual support for a product at all. You don't see Bethesda offering patches and updates to the original Skyrim (the last patch was released in March 2013) despite there still being bugs in the game.

 

If a customer is rude and/or stupid, a company can ban them from their products and services. Amazon does it. Delta Airlines does it. Shopping malls do it. And so do game developers. So, no, customers do not "own" a company simply because they buy products or services the company produces. Nor would mod users "own" mod authors who create paid mods. The customer is not always right.

 

Yeah, sorry. I guess I sugar-coated it a bit. I didn't mean that they'll literally own you, but more in a sense that there's already more than enough entitled brats in the gaming community who see mod authors as factory machines that just pump out mods so that little Timmy and Jimmy can play with new toys, who already have certain expectations of you. If you don't meet their expectations, they go haywire and start throwing insults and threats.

 

For the last three weeks I've been heavily insulted and called out for not giving into demands from users who think I make mods for them, instead of myself. Simple answers such as "no" resulted in heavy and rude insults thrown at me, just for saying no or explaining why I won't/can't do it.

 

Imagine the scenario now where real money is involved. They pay me, I take a break for 3 months from modding or simply say no to what they want me to do. Can you even imagine the shitstorm that would happen ? I mean, you don't even have to imagine it. It already happened when Bethesda tried to do it with Skyrim and look how that turned out. So many trolling mods, so many mod authors who can't evaluate the proper price for their mod, so much anger, hate and insults thrown at everyone involved. Mod authors who offered their mods for free, suddenly locked them behind a paywall.

 

5$ for a mod ? It better offer 10% of content that the real game offers. That's how I see a mod with a price. If someone is going to put a price of 5$, I want that 5$ to be equivalent to the 5$ of the original game.

 

Or imagine where a user is not happy with what you did with the mod, but he paid for it. Do you accept his criticism or deny it ?

 

For example, my "1950s Feminine Outfits". So many people didn't like that I turned the Army Fatigues into a skirt. Such a shitstorm for something that people are given for free. The situation got so bad, that I had to make a special image just for people to shut up about it. Now... what happens if the mod costs 0.50$ ? In a hypothetical situation, that is what I evaluate the price of my mod if it were a paid mod, because I worked on it for a full week, with 18 hours a day and comes with Bodyslide and CBBE support. So 1 outfit out of 100 outfits that I changed and a lot of people are not happy. What do I do ? Do I deny them or succumb to their complaints ? You can probably imagine the amount of entitlement and rude comments that I'd get for not wanting to remove the Army Fatigues. 1 outfit out of 100. 1% of the mod is not to their liking and a shitstorm happens.

 

But 0.50$ is too low if my mod is using EVB or CBBE body. If I'm using someone else's content, it means that I also need to pay the original mod author a portion of my earnings because without him, my mod wouldn't exist. If it also uses assets from 5 other mods, I also need to split those 0.50$ equally. And so it goes on and on. See my point ?

 

My point is, paid mods is an awful idea and anyone who thinks it's a good one, needs to think deeply about the pros and cons. It would most definitely kill the modding community. It wouldn't even be a community anymore, but instead a business where everyone is a competitor. Back then I didn't say anything because anyone who wasn't a mod author and said that it was a bad idea, was called out as freeloader. Well, I'm a mod author and I am 110% against paid mods.

 

For me personally, Bethesda games are only great because of mods. Take mods away and what you have is an average game that gets boring very fast, just like any other game that is single-player. The whole reason why I'm even modding so extensively is because of myself. I want to make the game more fun for me, not for someone else. I never expected to even get a single donation, let alone such a huge one that I received, but it happens. Just like people on Twitch donate to people just because they find the content entertaining and meaningful.

 

If people find your content fun and meaningful, some will donate for sure. But going into modding and expecting money is the wrong way to go about it.

[Deleted31005User]

 

If I'm using someone else's content, it means that I also need to pay the original mod author a portion of my earnings because without him, my mod wouldn't exist. If it also uses assets from 5 other mods, I also need to split those 0.50$ equally. And so it goes on and on. See my point ?

So correct, right now everything is in the open and people are 'mostly' free to use assets from other modders as long as they have permission to do so, so mods literally build on top of each other and they become better as time goes on.

If paid mods is a thing, then people become compeditors indeed, and then things will not be open anymore and modders will most likely no longer give free permission for anyone to use their assets nor will they discuss issues/solutions with other modders, which in turn causes overall mod progression to be much worse and I fear that in the end all you get are junk-mods, equivalent to that famous Horse Armor DLC.

 

Mods are like idea's, they are meant to be shared freely because that's when they flourish the most, put them behind a paywall and it will be the opposite.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Guest

[Ethreon]

"Mods are like idea's, they are meant to be shared freely because that's when they flourish the most."

 

Up to each modder. While I don't like this discussion about paid mods on this, they'll come back regardless of our wishes.

[AGreatWeight]

For gods sake let them look at mod authors with distrust i mean do you download everything and anything willy nilly? If so what the hell is wrong with you? All it means is that they should verify the sources they get their mods from and not be a part of the problem but a part of the solution. pc master race and console peasants s*** be damned, no one has time for that kinda mentality and if you do, get a life. Stealing though, is wrong. Do it in rl go to jail do it online? get a virus. Big woop. bought stolen good from someone in rl? Go to jail. Bought stolen goods from someone online get a virus. And would they distrust the mod author or the pirate who uploaded the mod authors content? if thieving stopped more mods would get released to console by mod authors. But again why listen to me on this, this modding community has been around for about 10 years, everything for the most part has gone hunky dory in that time till console users without any prior knowledge joined the ranks. Sit down shut up and get educated. As for the rest, protect your stuff or jut quit it's your option really The rest of us will try to pick up the slack. As for the paid mods, I'm very active on Patreon and would totally be down to support some of my favorite mod authors on it especially since that would drive them to update more and leave less frequently.

I think your misinterpreting me attacking your suggestion with me attacking you personally. Look into the history of DRM - It doesn't work, and someone determined enough always finds a way to circumvent it. It becomes an endless circle of small victories on either side, but no winner.

Besides, if this code became widely available, who's to say that it wouldn't be used in a malicious way through modification. I'd rather stay away from that rabbit hole.

The onus for the theft isn't on the user who unknowingly downloaded the stolen mod, it's on the person who stole it in the first place; in all likelihood, with this code added, they'll still steal and either attempt to pass it off as their own work, or openly proudly flaunt it in defiance.

So why even attempt to impliment a measure that doesn't even work at deterring the theft? The thief isn't being punished by the save-destroying code, it's just ammunition for these idiots to use on those easily swayed by that pointless PCMR/Elitist crap.

Theft happening was unfortunately an inevitability thanks to a combination of the initial novelty of mods for consoles, and Bethesda's turgid site design/lack of safeguards for mod authors (plus their unwillingness to work with those with years of experience with mod hosting)

Punitive measures that punish everyone except the individual who commited the crime is not the solution.

Edited December 30, 2016 by AGreatWeight

[Reneer]

Imagine the scenario now where real money is involved. They pay me, I take a break for 3 months from modding or simply say no to what they want me to do. Can you even imagine the shitstorm that would happen ? I mean, you don't even have to imagine it. It already happened when Bethesda tried to do it with Skyrim and look how that turned out. So many trolling mods, so many mod authors who can't evaluate the proper price for their mod, so much anger, hate and insults thrown at everyone involved. Mod authors who offered their mods for free, suddenly locked them behind a paywall.

 

5$ for a mod ? It better offer 10% of content that the real game offers. That's how I see a mod with a price. If someone is going to put a price of 5$, I want that 5$ to be equivalent to the 5$ of the original game.

This "problem" you highlight regarding prices has an easy, simple fix: Don't buy a mod that you don't think is worth the price tag on it. And all that anger, hate, and insults have been pretty par for the course in the modding world. Well before paid mods were a thing I was getting nasty e-mails and comments and PMs on my mods. Those don't faze me anymore after 10 years of it and an uptick in insults due to paid modding isn't going to hurt me.

 

Or imagine where a user is not happy with what you did with the mod, but he paid for it. Do you accept his criticism or deny it ?

 

For example, my "1950s Feminine Outfits". So many people didn't like that I turned the Army Fatigues into a skirt. Such a shitstorm for something that people are given for free. The situation got so bad, that I had to make a special image just for people to shut up about it. Now... what happens if the mod costs 0.50$ ? In a hypothetical situation, that is what I evaluate the price of my mod if it were a paid mod, because I worked on it for a full week, with 18 hours a day and comes with Bodyslide and CBBE support. So 1 outfit out of 100 outfits that I changed and a lot of people are not happy. What do I do ? Do I deny them or succumb to their complaints ? You can probably imagine the amount of entitlement and rude comments that I'd get for not wanting to remove the Army Fatigues. 1 outfit out of 100. 1% of the mod is not to their liking and a shitstorm happens.

 

But 0.50$ is too low if my mod is using EVB or CBBE body. If I'm using someone else's content, it means that I also need to pay the original mod author a portion of my earnings because without him, my mod wouldn't exist. If it also uses assets from 5 other mods, I also need to split those 0.50$ equally. And so it goes on and on. See my point ?

Sure I see your point: You're basically saying that it's too much work for you. That you have to do more work (split revenue between you and other mods your work uses) and you don't want that kind of hassle. That's all fine. My mods, unlike yours, have absolutely no outside dependencies aside from what comes with the Bethesda games. So I would get 100% of whatever profit my mods would make, minus what cut Bethesda takes. I don't need to worry about profit-sharing with anyone else. So while that issue is one you are concerned about, I'm not.

 

And if someone isn't happy with the product that you created, give them a refund and be on your merry way. Just because you create a product does not mean you are beholden to the people who buy that product. If a lot of people aren't happy with your product and want refunds, give them refunds so long as they complain within a set period of time. If a lot of people complain about one specific thing that you won't / can't change, then tell them why you won't / can't and offer refunds to anyone who cares enough to request one. Simple enough.

 

My point is, paid mods is an awful idea and anyone who thinks it's a good one, needs to think deeply about the pros and cons. It would most definitely kill the modding community. It wouldn't even be a community anymore, but instead a business where everyone is a competitor. Back then I didn't say anything because anyone who wasn't a mod author and said that it was a bad idea, was called out as freeloader. Well, I'm a mod author and I am 110% against paid mods.

This may come off as me sounding like a bit of a jerk, but oh well. I've been doing this whole mod author thing a long time. I've seen horrible mod users before. And, believe it or not, I've thought long and hard about the pros and cons of paid mods.

 

You think paid mods would kill the community because everyone would suddenly be a competitor. But here's the problem with your argument: Not every mod author wants to sell their mods. Remember when paid mods were a thing? And mod authors began putting up those "Forever Free" banners? Those mod authors won't be selling their work. Those mod authors will continue to distribute their creations and allow others to build off of their work (likely so long as that new creation isn't a paid mod). And that includes tools like the Script Extenders and Nifskope and TESEdit (last I checked).

 

In essence, you're making the assumption that the vast majority of mod authors will suddenly want to sell their mods. And perhaps that is true. But there is also clear evidence that there are numerous mod authors who do not want to sell their work and will continue to release their work for free.

 

And even if some mod authors, like myself, want to sell their mods that doesn't mean that those same mod authors won't want to continue helping others in the community. I've been helping people with scripts since the Oblivion days and even if paid mods come to pass I'm not going to stop doing that. Simply because I want to get paid for my hard work doesn't mean I'm going to stop helping others.

 

If people find your content fun and meaningful, some will donate for sure. But going into modding and expecting money is the wrong way to go about it.

That's your opinion on the matter. Mine is obviously different. If you want to keep your mods free and never put a price on them, go right ahead. But don't tell me what I can do with my hard work.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Reneer

[Ethreon]

You want the mod to offer you content worth of $5? OK, I'll make 3 workshop sets and I'll sell it for half the price. IS that good enough?

[damanding]

Huzzah! Both Friffy's Rugs and Ad3do's Snap'N Build are back up! :dance:

[JimmyRJump]

Huzzah! Friffy's Rugs are back up! :dance:

Been curling my toes in 'em the whole day :D

 

(Forgive me for the selective quoting)

[Deleted31005User]

If I could earn money for mods I wouldn't spend time and love into it anymore and I would just make it as clickbait as possible with a ton of naked pics and boobies, after all, who wants to spend time on a fantastic mod that is directed at a certain small niche when you could just as well make a junkmod that every teen wants to download and they would gladly pay for it as well.(sex sells the best)

If I mod now I do it for fun, but if money is involved I would most certainly drop that 'fun' part and creativity goes out the door, and instead I would try to market mods to horny teens which are by far the largest audience out there, just look at the number of download and endorsements on any mod that involves anything related to nude. (body mods, house mods with tons of half-naked ladies running around, female follower mods, and on it goes...)

 

Quality versus quantity, I would go down the China Market route.

 

Anyone thinking this won't affect the quality and diversity of mods needs a reality check, once money/greed is involved the whole game changes.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Guest

[chucksteel]

If I could earn money for mods I wouldn't spend time and love into it anymore and I would just make it as clickbait as possible with a ton of naked pics and boobies, after all, who wants to spend time on a fantastic mod that is directed at a certain small niche when you could just as well make a junkmod that every teen wants to download and they would gladly pay for it as well.(sex sells the best)

If I mod now I do it for fun, but if money is involved I would most certainly drop that 'fun' part and creativity goes out the door, and instead I would try to market mods to horny teens which are by far the largest audience out there, just look at the number of download and endorsements on any mod that involves anything related to nude. (body mods, house mods with tons of half-naked ladies running around, female follower mods, and on it goes...)

 

Quality versus quantity, I would go down the China Market route.

 

Anyone thinking this won't affect the quality and diversity of mods needs a reality check, once money/greed is involved the whole game changes.

 

I just have to say that this entire comment is very short sided and sad.

 

Sure there would be an influx of click bait mods but, there has always been and always will be click bait mods!

 

Payed mods however would also open up the real possibility for things like "Total Conversions", "DLC" sized mods or "Re-works" of the older games on the newer engines with large teams combining skills and resources.

 

The mods would probably not be cheap maybe even costing as much as the original games but, this is something we will probably never see happen without payed modding!

 

Many of us who support the idea of payed mods would Never just stoup to the lowest common denominator only to make a buck and would try our best to put out top notch mods worth the money!

 

Edit: Your thinking about Nickels and Dimes and others of us are thinking about a bigger picture where (I'll call them) Micro-Studio's can spring up developing New content and making a real living. With console modding starting to take off there is a market and a potential here.