An update on Vortex development

ozoak · January 4, 2018

On 1/4/2018 at 6:16 PM, Ethreon said:

In response to post #56499046.

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ErusPrime wrote:

On 1/4/2018 at 12:08 PM, sopmac45 said:

In response to post #56492581.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:
Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.
FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

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Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

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Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

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Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

Quote
FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

I don't understand the argument against a system that only adds functionality. Literally nothing is being taken away. Your ability to play with whatever mods you want is still there. The only thing that changes is now you can spend all that time and share it with other people without breaking the rules. Because I guarantee there are a lot of people who have put their files on a jump drive and installed their mod setup for someone else. Because 20 minutes of that vs. hours/days/weeks of walking them through the process is f***ing stupid when we absolutely have the technology to allow it through controllable channels.
Learn to use a spoiler, it won't bite you.

Here is why modpacks are not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

And the response by Arthmoor below that succinctly summarises why they're not the end of the world either. May not work in the current NMM, may not be on the radar for Nexus at all, but that doesn't mean they're not something with merit and minimal risk. And in any system that does do them, they're not forced on any user, which means those who like to pick and choose still can, whilst those who download a 'pack' assume the risk.

Thandal · January 4, 2018

It's been the authors who's mods were include in "packs" who were the most vocal about forbidding them on the Nexus.

Leaving aside the "rights" issues completely, one of the major problems they had was that whenever either a patch to a game or OS, or mod handling tool (lookin' at you, Frosty) made the original version of a mod incompatible, the users who got their mods from a "pack" that had incorporated such a mod were baffled, frustrated, and abusive about things breaking. And they wouldn't necessarily know which mod caused the problem.

The "packagers" (can't really call them "authors") would ignore the issue, or simply couldn't keep track of all the variations/updates across all the files in the pack. The original mod authors would fix the compatibility problems (or not) but were being still being bombarded with vitriolic outbursts because the "pack users" had no idea how to handle mod updates, or uninstalls, individually.

ozoak · January 4, 2018

I know this may be unpopular, but...deal with the vitriol? I don't mean 'suck it up' I mean, that's what rules are for right? User breaks them, user get a temp or perm ban.

I understand that issue, because people can be thoughtless navel-gazing stupid ungrateful jerks, but if rules exist that say 'play nice' and then they don't, the rules should take care of them.

However despite thinking that 'modpacks' or whatever they would be termed have a place, I can understand how "no modpacks!" as a stance deals with one cause of a symptom.

Thandal · January 5, 2018

On 1/4/2018 at 11:50 PM, ozoak said:
I know this may be unpopular, but...deal with the vitriol? I don't mean 'suck it up' I mean, that's what rules are for right? User breaks them, user get a temp or perm ban.
I understand that issue, because people can be thoughtless navel-gazing stupid ungrateful jerks, but if rules exist that say 'play nice' and then they don't, the rules should take care of them.
However despite thinking that 'modpacks' or whatever they would be termed have a place, I can understand how "no modpacks!" as a stance deals with one cause of a symptom.

The Nexus has a long history of, when faced with what players want vs. what mod authors want, siding with the authors.

tajetaje · January 5, 2018

In response to post #56508056.

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ozoak wrote:

On 1/4/2018 at 6:16 PM, Ethreon said:

In response to post #56499046.

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ErusPrime wrote:

On 1/4/2018 at 12:08 PM, sopmac45 said:

In response to post #56492581.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:
Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.
FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

Quote
Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

Quote
Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

Quote
Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

Quote
FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

I don't understand the argument against a system that only adds functionality. Literally nothing is being taken away. Your ability to play with whatever mods you want is still there. The only thing that changes is now you can spend all that time and share it with other people without breaking the rules. Because I guarantee there are a lot of people who have put their files on a jump drive and installed their mod setup for someone else. Because 20 minutes of that vs. hours/days/weeks of walking them through the process is f***ing stupid when we absolutely have the technology to allow it through controllable channels.
Learn to use a spoiler, it won't bite you.

Here is why modpacks are not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

And the response by Arthmoor below that succinctly summarises why they're not the end of the world either. May not work in the current NMM, may not be on the radar for Nexus at all, but that doesn't mean they're not something with merit and minimal risk. And in any system that does do them, they're not forced on any user, which means those who like to pick and choose still can, whilst those who download a 'pack' assume the risk.

Yes, perhaps an opt-out for mod authors if they don't want users skipping their pages.

MarchinBunny · January 5, 2018

On 1/4/2018 at 12:08 PM, sopmac45 said:

In response to post #56492581.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:
Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

You caring doesn't mean they should not include the option. All that means is you just don't use it. You continue to mod the way you want to. It doesn't hurt to include more options though.

On 1/4/2018 at 6:16 PM, Ethreon said:

In response to post #56499046.

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ErusPrime wrote:

In response to post #56492581.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:
Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

""""People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

I don't understand the argument against a system that only adds functionality. Literally nothing is being taken away. Your ability to play with whatever mods you want is still there. The only thing that changes is now you can spend all that time and share it with other people without breaking the rules. Because I guarantee there are a lot of people who have put their files on a jump drive and installed their mod setup for someone else. Because 20 minutes of that vs. hours/days/weeks of walking them through the process is f***ing stupid when we absolutely have the technology to allow it through controllable channels.
Learn to use a spoiler, it won't bite you.

Here is why modpacks are not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

Ya, you should probably read further down on the reddit before acting like you are right.

In plus, I have to disagree with a lot of what Dark0ne even said. There are quite a few ways to go about this.

Here is one of the ways that I personally think is the best and takes care of all the problems. I am going to call it a mod list btw, instead of a mod pack to eliminate confusion.

1. When a mod is included in a mod list and the author deletes the version, it will send a notification to the author of the mod list to let them know. This will help list authors keep their list up to date.

2. When a user downloads a list, if one of the versions is deleted for the mod it needs, ti will pop up a notification. This will give the person the option to exclude the mod, or download the new version. This way a person is more aware of which mods this occurs for and they can double check themselves that the new version will not cause problems. Or if it will, they can decide to just not download it. These two options would work for most cases.

Now as for mod authors having issues with people not visiting their page when mod lists are involved, I feel that is entirely unnecessary anyway. If a person runs into a problem they are likely to either go to the list authors page or the specific mod that is causing the issue. If they go to the list author, they are likely to refer them to the mod page or they may even be able to help without sending them to the mod page. Maybe they know the problem. This also in a sense can eliminate a lot of the smaller issues that occur and lighten the load a bit for mod authors.

Not to mention when you download a decent pack it's more likely to work than if the person tried to make their own and failed. Which means again mod authors have less to deal with. People not visiting their page isn't a good excuse because the only time people need to do that is if they are the ones putting together the pack, or if a person runs into a problem which they will absolutely be referred to the correct page if need be by the list authors. Also, the list should include links to all the mods pages in the description.

It's honestly not nearly as complicated as Dark0ne wrote in that post.

MarchinBunny · January 5, 2018

On 1/4/2018 at 11:42 PM, Thandal said:
It's been the authors who's mods were include in "packs" who were the most vocal about forbidding them on the Nexus.

Leaving aside the "rights" issues completely, one of the major problems they had was that whenever either a patch to a game or OS, or mod handling tool (lookin' at you, Frosty) made the original version of a mod incompatible, the users who got their mods from a "pack" that had incorporated such a mod were baffled, frustrated, and abusive about things breaking. And they wouldn't necessarily know which mod caused the problem.

The "packagers" (can't really call them "authors") would ignore the issue, or simply couldn't keep track of all the variations/updates across all the files in the pack. The original mod authors would fix the compatibility problems (or not) but were being still being bombarded with vitriolic outbursts because the "pack users" had no idea how to handle mod updates, or uninstalls, individually.

As long as the mods are not coming from any other source other than Nexus itself, there are no rights issues.

I feel like compatibility issues are already dealt with between mods often enough for it to not really ever be a huge problem. Mod lists that don't work correctly will likely just fall down the list never to be seen again by most people. While the mod lists that do work well and are updated frequently are the ones that are going to rise to the top.

Also, personally I think it's wrong to always side with the authors on everything, with the exception if it's violating their rights. The users are a part of the community too, and without them, the mod authors wouldn't be here.

And yes, without the mod authors there would not be any content. But when it comes to progressing Nexus as a whole and making things easier for everyone, you sometimes have to step your foot down somewhere even if it does ruffle some feathers in the beginning.

Sorry for double post btw .. tried including this in an edit, but it just was not working well.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Brabbit1987

Behelit79 · January 6, 2018

In response to post #56492581. #56493356 is also a reply to the same post.

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Brabbit1987 wrote:

On 1/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Behelit79 said:

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

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Quote
tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.

Quote
Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.

Quote
Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.

Quote
Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.

Quote
FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

Quote
sopmac45 wrote: """"People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.

Wow, it really warms my heart seeing how you reply to other people. "So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares." So you didn't understand just the simplest thing, who cares. This is Skyrim not Minecraft, i very well know what a modpack is since the Morrowind modpacks fiasco era. You like to assume too much and this is usually a sign of ignorance but let me tell you that i prey developers will give you this feat before the vein in your head could explode... cause you know, who cares. Edited January 6, 2018 by Behelit79

MarchinBunny · January 6, 2018

On 1/6/2018 at 1:32 AM, Behelit79 said:

In response to post #56492581. #56493356 is also a reply to the same post.

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Quote
Brabbit1987 wrote:
Your argument is that people have different tastes like as if that makes mod packs not a good idea. it's a terrible argument because people enjoy games every single day that may not necessarly have everything exactly to their tastes. It's still fun regardless to msot people even if not every single portion is perfect.

Your argument shows a major lack in understanding even about mod packs. I am guessing you never actualyl tried a mod pack before for any game. I am guessing you didn't even do a single amount of research on the matter. You decided it was a bad idea based on your own ignorance. You disregard the fact mod packs exist and are successful in other games. For example Minecraft.

How is it that mod packs for Minecraft is the msot popular way to mod? If your conclusions here were correct, this would not be the case.
I don't thin kyou realize what people are willing to sacrifice for ease of use. People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares.

I would argue they are more likely to try out more mods because it's easier to do. Sure it will be in the form of mod packs, but they are likely to come across mods they may have other wise never found because they would have never spent the time to do so.

I really wish someone against mod packs would actually provide a good argument, but it seems no one who is against it is capable of doing research on the matter and rather present their own ignorance to the world like as if it was something to show off as a trophy.

In response to post #56088421. #56101751, #56306091, #56315431, #56327811 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

FalloutNewb wrote: Well if it's made as easy as possible then the modding elitists don't have a single thing up on anybody.

IMO they're the type of people whose only talent is organizing load orders. Ultros7 wrote: Modpacks are a good idea and would vastly improve the accessibility of modding Skyrim.

The compatibility issues that would arise aren't a good argument against it simply because that work would fall on modpack authors, they'd have to sort all of that out including their own patches if necessary, then the end user can just install it. It's better than the current system of having every single end user go through the nightmare of getting a stable load order, it's the one thing preventing people from getting into modded Skyrim. You have no idea how many people I've seen who just play vanilla or only use texture/ENB mods because they'd rather not deal with the hassle.
The best "install guides" out there like STEP are still too complicated for most people, and too time consuming. A real infrastructure on a mod client to automate the biggest chunks of the process, or ANY of it at all, would be greatly welcome.

This pushback against progress is not healthy, and I hope whatever's driving people to be selfish and/or elitist like this fades out eventually. If it doesn't, well you're going to have competitors rising up and no amount of bitching about people "stealing mods" will stop them.
Users want the most convenient way of doing things, if it exists they'll go for it and if it doesn't exist someone will be motivated to create it. You either move with the times or get left behind.Brabbit1987 wrote: +Behelit79
It's not about being lazy, it's about ease of use. Not everyone has the time to create extensive load orders checking for problems and such reading through tons of documentation just to make sure one mod is compatible with another,

Yes, you are right people who download these packs are unlikely to read any documentation, but that is fine because that is meant to be done by the pack creator. The best example I can show of such a system like this working is for Minecraft. They have been literally doing it for years. Curse Forge. Keeping in mind Minecraft is far more difficult to mod than Skyrim is and the system works absolutely fine.Behelit79 wrote: Don't know, all this "modpack" thing seems to me just an extreme lazy feat. No offense but there is already an horde of people that doesn't even read mod descriptions, give them a list with just direct download links and they wouldn't even visit the mods pages anymore.tajetaje wrote: OK, this is kind of a repost/summation of all the "modpack" comments so far but here it goes:
It seems that the most functional application of this idea is to have a simple text file or the like, formatted so that vortex can read it, with direct download links that could simply be fed into vortex's download manager. A simple handler for mods that have been removed is all that might be required to address the problem of pulled mods. I, as a semi-decent programmer, see no issue with this whatsoever, nor a rule conflict present.
Modpacks may seem a good idea but no, they aren't. So you all simply just tell me that you want your game based on preferences of another player? Really? I'll show you just a few simple examples: Mod Package Author choose just a single house mod, you blindly donwload its pack as it is, not knowing there are many alternatives and not even caring to search something that would better suit your taste. Mod Package Author 1 choose Realistic Needs and Diseases as a base for its realism gameplay, you download its pack and would not know there is iNeed as a great alternative; Mod Package Author 2 has iNeed in its pack but it lacks others, what would you do? There are countless grass mods, many weather mods and these are the simplest outcomes, when you start to throw in complex gameplay mods there would be many more variables. It's not a matter of not wanting to help people get their life easier, it's a matter to let you know that maybe there are better mods you would enjoy more.

Quote
sopmac45 wrote: """"People don't care if things are not exactly to their tastes if it means saving several days and headaches of trying to get a load order to work which they may never acocmplish when they could just download a mod pack that works right out of the box and just get to playing. """"

... well I do care. I would not like to download a mod pack which is coming with a mod that I do not like at all. I do choose, one by one, the mods that I want to use in my game play and I really do not care about how long it takes for me to download / install it. There are thousands of mods but not all of them are good mods and not all of them are of my taste. With all respect to whoever made that mod, for example, for me, the mod Better Mama Murphy chair is not a mod that I will install ever and if this mod would be included in a mod pack, I would not download / install that mod pack.

What I really do care about VORTEX is to allow us to :
- Sort automatically our load order to the best possible order
- Do what LOOT does automatically
- Be able to delete / add a mod mid game without affecting the game so we would not have any CTD
- Have different profiles so we can switch from one to another in our own game without affecting any performance
- Automatically update mods
- .... this is something that probably would not be possible but I would love that Vortex be able to resolve mod conflicts ... yes, this is probably not possible but again, it is something I would love Vortex to have ... or .... give some very good tutorial ( that explain to me step by step all the details ) about how to resolve mod conflicts using FO4Edit and I will be happy to learn and apply it in my game.

Back to mod pack ... again, I do not like that idea my friend but I do respect yours. I am very specific of what I want in my game and I am very demanding about mods. Just to give you an idea, I only have 70 mods in my FO4 game because for me, quality mods are much better than quantity, so if mod packs are about quantity, it is something not for me. I do not like that idea at all but if they have it as an optional feature, by all means, it is welcome so it will help some other players that love that idea.
Wow, it really warms my heart seeing how you reply to other people. "So, there is a house they may not use. Who cares. So they may not use iNeed. Who cares." So you didn't understand just the simplest thing, who cares. This is Skyrim not Minecraft, i very well know what a modpack is since the Morrowind modpacks fiasco era. You like to assume too much and this is usually a sign of ignorance but let me tell you that i prey developers will give you this feat before the vein in your head could explode... cause you know, who cares.

I replied perfectly fine, not really sure what you have an issue with.

As for not understanding the simplest things? I don't even understand what you are trying to say because that is a blank statement. My point is, not everyone cares about whether or not another mod exists. If they cared they would look. It's really not complicated. To me, you just sound pissy about my argument because you don't know how to refute what I said and you just don't want to admit I have a point.

Yes, this is Skyrim, not Minecraft. That doesn't negate the point. Which seems to have flown right over your head. The point was if it works perfectly fine for one game, there is very little reason why it wouldn't work fine for another. There isn't some huge significant difference in modding between these two games for it to be an issue for Skyrim. Literally, the only issue is people like you who want to fight over this for absolutely no other reason than to disagree because you personally don't like the idea even though plenty do. I got news for you, the world does not revolve around you. If you don't like the idea of mod packs, then don't use them. No one is forcing it on you, so, calm down.

Morrowind is such an old game, I don't think that really counts because mod packs likely have changed quite significantly since then. Plus I have no idea what fiasco you are even talking about. How about something more recent? Also, I am not assuming anything it is called making an educated guess. You make a guess based on evidence. The probability was extremely high that you don't know anything about mod packs based on your arguments. The fact Morrowind is what you decided to bring up, it seems I was correct in this guess. You have very little knowledge of mod packs in more recent times with more recent games.

It's important to understand that an assumption is pretty much a guess without any evidence or proof.

As for my head exploding. You are being silly. Just because I happen to disagree with you and refute you, doesn't really give any reason to believe my head will explode due to some vein. Seriously, I question why you even decided to write such a post. Not a single part of it refuted anything I said. It's like you wanted to argue without actually providing an argument.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Brabbit1987

acidzebra · January 6, 2018

Is he still going? I put him on ignore after it became clear he has no idea about what making mods for either Skyrim or Minecraft entails or why the internals of one game would be more complex than the other, he just wants his one-click toys and to hell with what anyone else wants, even the creators of those toys. What a great member of the 'community'.

An update on Vortex development

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