An update on Vortex development

[ozoak]

I was covering 1 reason given that I disagreed with, and I acknowledged there are some valid and reasonable arguments against them [modpacks].

I don't remember telling anyone that they were naive. Nor implying anyone wasn't worth hearing an opinion from.

Certainly not derisively laughing at anyone, having a go at anyone personally, commenting on their traits or sarcastically denigrating their worth.

 

Of course this attracts the typical dismissive and derogatory responses.

These are the reasons that 'regular' people don't bother with this "community" very much, the reason the place grabs monikers like "Noxiousmods".

 

I'm unfollowing the topic, so go ahead and claim whatever victory you want and continue to ignore rational debate with people of a different mind.

 

p.s. @Thandal in case you take that as referring to your post, it was not. You disagree, state a point and do it respectfully. Others seem incapable of such things.

[Thandal]

People arguing for "mod packs" seem to forget that Dark0ne has far more experience dealing with the consequences of allowing such collections than they do. Far more.

 

They are arguing hypotheticals. His stance is based on what happens/has happened in the real world.

[ErusPrime]

People arguing for "mod packs" seem to forget that Dark0ne has far more experience dealing with the consequences of allowing such collections than they do. Far more.

 

They are arguing hypotheticals. His stance is based on what happens/has happened in the real world.

 

According to his reddit post his stance is based on the idea that his implementation isn't good enough to meet everyone's needs. I agree with him. It's really close though. We have the CDN and the client. We have users that are great at creating and troubleshooting mod lists. And there's obviously a demand for it. We're right there in the realm of possibility. This is one of those arguments that can go on forever because there are so many good points on both sides. Right now, this is just users arguing back and forth. There's a huge disparity in experience with all the moving parts of a system like this and it all kind of boils down to opinion. There are a lot of questions that need answers still. I think what everyone is arguing for is not the actual implementation but serious consideration.

[Yinepuhotep]

I really hope Vortex gets released soon. I want to start modding Fallout 4 with it :smile:

 

I'd like to know this, too. Although in my case, it's because I'd like to be able to mod ANYTHING without the need to edit and install things by hand. I've spent the last year using Bash for my mod installs, and while it's a very useful and powerful tool, it's not as convenient as NMM and Mod Organizer were when they worked.

[sopmac45]

In response to post #56849606.

Yinepuhotep wrote:

I really hope Vortex gets released soon. I want to start modding Fallout 4 with it :smile:

 

I'd like to know this, too. Although in my case, it's because I'd like to be able to mod ANYTHING without the need to edit and install things by hand. I've spent the last year using Bash for my mod installs, and while it's a very useful and powerful tool, it's not as convenient as NMM and Mod Organizer were when they worked.

In the Year to Review article by Dark0ne, he explained that Vortex will be out in Alpha state by the end of January or the first two weeks of February. We are just 2 weeks away from that. It will be out soon but not totalized. They are expecting some bugs and our feedback will help Tannin to fix / improve it.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #56820681. #56821561 is also a reply to the same post.

Thandal wrote: @ozoak; You don't understand. One "broken" mod can make everything in the pack break. And the users most likely to install "packs" are those least likely to understand why, or be able to tell which one was the problem, or what to do about it.

They'll complain loudly and repeatedly, and to any and all authors associated with the pack.

We know. We've seen it. That's why such collections are not allowed on the Nexus.

Ethreon wrote: Well obviously all your hard evidence and past experiences pale in front of these folks' arguments, eh? /s

You say "we know." "we've seen it."
Well, I say. I have too. I have seen it done right. Look at Curse ... it's literally the exact system we are talking about. You can't sit there and tell me you have the experience and know it can't work when there is a site that is literally doing it just fine.

It does work, it's just no one here wants to make it work they just want to complain about it not working and use every little excuse for why it shouldn't exist. I don't get how steam could make a workshop with collections, but nope .. Nexus ... somehow Nexus is stumped by this issue. It just doesn't work they say while everyone around them clearly shows it does.

No one is saying there will be no problems. Of course, there will be, just as there are problems with people creating their own load orders. This is just a simple fact about modding in general. You all are pointing out problems that plague modding even without mod packs and then using it as an excuse for not having them.

One broken mod that breaks a mod pack would break everyone's load order who has that mod. It literally has nothing to do with mod packs. That is an issue with that mod, not the mod pack. If it has to do with compatibility issues, then that again is a problem that would occur with anyone's load order even without a mod pack. A lot of you are under the impression it makes things worse, and I hear to tell you it does not. It's actually the complete opposite.

Mod packs are the equivalent of having a friend who knows what they are doing come over to create a load order for you. You are likely going to run into far fewer problems with a load order they made than the one you tried to make yourself.That is the point of mod packs. It's the same reason when you don't know what you are doing you have other people do it for you. Building computers, making food, building a house, etc.We leave it up to our betters.

If you have 100 people who have no idea what they are doing trying to put together a load order.
And 100 p[eople who download a mod pack that has been tested by someone who knows what they are doing.

Which 100 people do you expect to run into more problems? The first option is going to take ages for them, and they are going to likely run into so many issues that they are going to have to go on each individual mod authors page saying. Hey, this isn't working. Only to eventually give up entirely or just install a few mods as they can. The other option they click a button it download and it installs a load order that is known to work. And trust me, if it didn't it wouldn't be one of the highest rated mod packs the ones that most will be installing.

I think it's incredibly unlikely you will come across a pack that does not work without first know it does not work simply based on how many use it and or the complaints in the comment section of that pack.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #56826921. #56876151 is also a reply to the same post.

Thandal wrote:

People arguing for "mod packs" seem to forget that Dark0ne has far more experience dealing with the consequences of allowing such collections than they do. Far more.

 

They are arguing hypotheticals. His stance is based on what happens/has happened in the real world.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Oh, one last thing. The reason it may seem like there are more people with problems with mod packs might just be the fact mod packs makes modding more accessible so you end up with more people willing to mod. More people modding equals more people that may require support.

Again, I point you in the direction of other websites and games that do mod packs successfully. Yes, I mean obviously it's not entirely the same thing, different games after all. But the problems listed here are indeed problems that exist for all mod packs for all games. A single mod in Minecraft for example, could technically break an entire pack. Funny though how that isn't actually that big of a problem for that community. Huh. Wonder why?

I can easily explain why. Because mod packs that don't work, eventually die. While the mod packs that do work exist and continue to get downloaded. If a mod pack has a good rating and is super popular, you can likely rest assured it's going to work fine. If a mod updates and breaks a popular pack like that, it's going to be a lot more people than just those who use mod packs who have a broken game.It will be anyone who also has updated that mod in their load order. Again, it's an issue with the mod, not the mod pack.

In such a case what is likely to happen is people freak out for a bit both on the mod pack page and on that particular mod. It will get fixed and things will continue like they always do. Although I would argue most of the complaints is less likely to come from those who used the mod pack because, to be honest, it's rare for people to update mod packs. I would argue it's safer to not to update in the middle of your game unless there is a game breaking bug, but I doubt the mod pack would be as popular as it is if that was the case.

Also .. not arguing hypotheticals ... because Curse exists in the real world. I am sorry, but you can't say it's based on hypotheticals like that. >.>My stance is based just as much on the real world as his is. But at least I actually can point to a physical example of it working just fine somewhere else.,

Edit: I would like to also mention that just because a person has tried something and failed at it doesn't mean it isn't possible. It could very well be that person just did it wrong. Edited January 19, 2018 by Brabbit1987

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #56822411.

alt3rn1ty wrote:

Well, this is quite the circular argument isn't it.

As has also been pointed out before, not all mods requiring updates will make a set of mods, be that a 'pack', 'collection' or just all the mods currently in use invalid or cause wailing.

Will some collections of mods be broken by a single mod within the pack being updated? Yeah, probably.

Will all collections of mods be broken by a single mod within the pack being updated? No, not likely.

 

And here's the thing. If someone installs a 'collection' and it's got some awful bug in it due to one mod, they can identify which mod it is causing the problem (and individually update it), or they'll lack the skills to identify which mod it is (in which case they'll wail at the 'collection' maker, not the individual mod maker), or they'll simply remove the 'collection' and either try to build their own (based on the mods they saw in the collection) or try a new 'collection'. All of which will be exactly the same as it is with individual mods.

 

I can accept a few arguments against mod packs/collections as being 100% valid, but the whole "A user who uses one is going to come across a mod that gets updated and breaks their pack, and then they'll *censored* at the individual mod author" argument is not amongst them.

 

:teehee: :laugh: .. Couldn't find enough ROFL type emotes to convey the message

 

Every single forum topic that turns into a mod pack discussion always develops and ends the same = Inconclusive complex issue where there is lots of desire for simple, and lots of argument against, no matter how strong either side puts forth all the relevant bullet points and counter arguments.

 

 

If you think the individual mod authors will not be harrassed to death because of the ineptitude of the pack author to solve issues beyond his knowledge (which usually equates to throwing the mods together and has no clue about modding intricacies) .. You are a bit green about the gills.

 

The various TES communities over the last 12 years have seen some pretty concerted and respectful attempts at creating mod packs, getting all permissions from all angles (even where an individual mod author sought permission from third parties resources, those were re-affirmed for the purpose of the mod pack), and those projects were attempted by some pretty dedicated individuals with a lot of technical know-how ..

 

.. All of whom eventually gave up. The few that made an actual mod pack, soon realised that there were many technical hitches which were not anticipated, and regretfully could not support fixing the issues (which obviously then the crowd goes "Hmm, I have a bright idea, wouldn't the original author help .. lets go and ask"). Skill / knowledge fade by third parties is a foregone conclusion.

 

 

There are many legendary mod authors who simply will not agree to having their mods included purely because they know of all the crap that will ensue and inevitably will be directed their way because they are the experts in their chosen field of modding.

 

Once you start giving people tools to make mod packs easier, along will come the people who care less about intricate permissions and intellectual property / copyright, who will just bang packs together without any concern for peoples long term save games getting messed up to hell.

 

 

Right now Skyrim Special Edition Nexus is filling up with newbie mod authors who thought they could take on someone elses project for the new game .. Who become surprisingly busy RL when asked questions they do not understand that the original author would have had a bank of Q and A ready for. Times that circumstance by how big a mod pack grows.

 

 

Dark0ne has already covered all the appropriate reasons as to why there will not be support for mod packs in a few other news articles recently, here's one on Reddit

Mod packs are not expected to be put together by people who have no idea what they are doing. People who have no idea, are not going to have mod packs with high ratings or a large number of downloads. They are just going to sink into the abyss never to be seen again. Just like any mod that does not work.

The fact it's possible to even put together a stable load order means it's possible to make a mod pack. All that is required is copying a set of files and information from one computer over to another. Pretty sure we have that technology today. The only barriers that exist are the mod authors, Nexus, and those like you who like to make fallacious arguments against it that don't actually hold up to scrutiny.

There are games who already do what you are stating is impossible or cannot be done. And they have done it rather succesfully I might add.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #56826921. #56875916 is also a reply to the same post.

Thandal wrote:

People arguing for "mod packs" seem to forget that Dark0ne has far more experience dealing with the consequences of allowing such collections than they do. Far more.

 

They are arguing hypotheticals. His stance is based on what happens/has happened in the real world.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Again, I point you in the direction of other websites and games that do mod packs successfully. Yes, I mean obviously it's not entirely the same thing, different games after all. But the problems listed here are indeed problems that exist for all mod packs for all games. A single mod in Minecraft for example, could technically break an entire pack. Funny though how that isn't actually that big of a problem for that community. Huh. Wonder why?

I can easily explain why. Because mod packs that don't work, eventually die. While the mod packs that do work exist and continue to get downloaded. If a mod pack has a good rating and is super popular, you can likely rest assured it's going to work fine. If a mod updates and breaks a popular pack like that, it's going to be a lot more people than just those who use mod packs who have a broken game.It will be anyone who also has updated that mod in their load order. Again, it's an issue with the mod, not the mod pack.

In such a case what is likely to happen is people freak out for a bit both on the mod pack page and on that particular mod. It will get fixed and things will continue like they always do. Although I would argue most of the complaints is less likely to come from those who used the mod pack because, to be honest, it's rare for people to update mod packs. I would argue it's safer to not to update in the middle of your game unless there is a game breaking bug, but I doubt the mod pack would be as popular as it is if that was the case.

Also .. not arguing hypotheticals ... because Curse exists in the real world. I am sorry, but you can say it's based on hypotheticals like that. >.>My stance is based just as much on the real world as he is. But at least I actually can point to a physical example of it working just fine somewhere else.,

Edit: I would like to also mention that just because a person has tried something and failed at it doesn't mean it isn't possible. It could very well be that person just did it wrong.

Oh, one last thing. The reason it may seem like there are more people with problems with mod packs might just be the fact mod packs makes modding more accessible so you end up with more people willing to mod. More people modding equals more people that may require support. Edited January 19, 2018 by Brabbit1987

[Deleted21585644User]

(hmm, how is this thread become a mod pack discussion?)

 

Any way, so I see the open alpha will be available in this month? :huh:

Guess I wait a bit for it before coming back to mod Skyrim from scratch again.