Ethreon Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 In response to post #56746931. Reveal hidden contents Quote ozoak wrote: On 1/13/2018 at 3:39 PM, HeyYou said: ModPacks: Ok, so, a user doesn't have a lot of time to mod his game, but, wants to use mods. So, said user downloads a mod pack, and plays for a few days/weeks/months, and encounters a bug...... the mod pack was updated with the new version of the fixed mod, but, it requires a clean save for it to properly function. Is the user supposed to attempt to load his game with the ENTIRE pack disabled, prior to updating to the new version? Or do you expect the user to follow directions on how to update properly, by only disabling the one mod that is going to be causing issues?Disabling all of them is most certainly going to trash his game. (especially if there's a bunch of settlement mods in there.....) Expecting users to properly follow directions? That's friggin laughable, as most mod authors are already well aware. Users that install their own mods individually are already notorious deficient in their reading skills. (not all, maybe not even most, but, there are more than you would really like to think, and they WILL be coming back with "your update broke my game!") Nope. Mod packs are simply a BAD idea. The mechanics of the game, and modding, simply does not support it. Your hypothetical scenario above is predicated on someone (lets call them the curator) putting together a mod pack which contains a bug bad enough to require patching, it requires the modpack being downloaded and used by someone who presents the combined attributes of not understanding about having to clean save files, of not understanding the risks of modpacks, of blaming the wrong person. Essentially the two individuals who you use as the example represent the worst least involved modders out there, at which point if they've broken their game it wont matter (to them) whether they got the mods from a pack or from someone recommending a list of mods because in either case they will b&@*$ and moan and not take responsibility. ipso facto: whether a modpack was involved at all will not change the resulting annoyance you predict them raining down on the original/individual mod authors.There will always be bugs. And you seem to live with the impression that mod pack users are people that know what they do, which is highly unlikely - most probably mod pack users will be those that don't know how to mod safely and just want a plug n play button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 1/14/2018 at 2:29 PM, Ethreon said: In response to post #56746931. Reveal hidden contents Quote ozoak wrote: On 1/13/2018 at 3:39 PM, HeyYou said: ModPacks: Ok, so, a user doesn't have a lot of time to mod his game, but, wants to use mods. So, said user downloads a mod pack, and plays for a few days/weeks/months, and encounters a bug...... the mod pack was updated with the new version of the fixed mod, but, it requires a clean save for it to properly function. Is the user supposed to attempt to load his game with the ENTIRE pack disabled, prior to updating to the new version? Or do you expect the user to follow directions on how to update properly, by only disabling the one mod that is going to be causing issues? Disabling all of them is most certainly going to trash his game. (especially if there's a bunch of settlement mods in there.....) Expecting users to properly follow directions? That's friggin laughable, as most mod authors are already well aware. Users that install their own mods individually are already notorious deficient in their reading skills. (not all, maybe not even most, but, there are more than you would really like to think, and they WILL be coming back with "your update broke my game!") Nope. Mod packs are simply a BAD idea. The mechanics of the game, and modding, simply does not support it. Your hypothetical scenario above is predicated on someone (lets call them the curator) putting together a mod pack which contains a bug bad enough to require patching, it requires the modpack being downloaded and used by someone who presents the combined attributes of not understanding about having to clean save files, of not understanding the risks of modpacks, of blaming the wrong person. Essentially the two individuals who you use as the example represent the worst least involved modders out there, at which point if they've broken their game it wont matter (to them) whether they got the mods from a pack or from someone recommending a list of mods because in either case they will *censored* and moan and not take responsibility. ipso facto: whether a modpack was involved at all will not change the resulting annoyance you predict them raining down on the original/individual mod authors.There will always be bugs. And you seem to live with the impression that mod pack users are people that know what they do, which is highly unlikely - most probably mod pack users will be those that don't know how to mod safely and just want a plug n play button. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarchinBunny Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 In response to post #56729841. Reveal hidden contents Quote HeyYou wrote: ModPacks: Ok, so, a user doesn't have a lot of time to mod his game, but, wants to use mods. So, said user downloads a mod pack, and plays for a few days/weeks/months, and encounters a bug...... the mod pack was updated with the new version of the fixed mod, but, it requires a clean save for it to properly function. Is the user supposed to attempt to load his game with the ENTIRE pack disabled, prior to updating to the new version? Or do you expect the user to follow directions on how to update properly, by only disabling the one mod that is going to be causing issues?Disabling all of them is most certainly going to trash his game. (especially if there's a bunch of settlement mods in there.....) Expecting users to properly follow directions? That's friggin laughable, as most mod authors are already well aware. Users that install their own mods individually are already notorious deficient in their reading skills. (not all, maybe not even most, but, there are more than you would really like to think, and they WILL be coming back with "your update broke my game!") Nope. Mod packs are simply a BAD idea. The mechanics of the game, and modding, simply does not support it.Not a very good reason to call mod packs a bad idea. If a person is incapable of reading and disabling 1 mod and making a save before downloading the new version of the pack, then they likely would have made the same exact mistake without a mod pack. This is a problem that basically isn't due to mod packs, but people not reading.It's so easy to break these arguments because it's almost like it wasn't really thought about well enough before posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarchinBunny Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 In response to post #56746931. #56755156 is also a reply to the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote ozoak wrote: On 1/13/2018 at 3:39 PM, HeyYou said: ModPacks: Ok, so, a user doesn't have a lot of time to mod his game, but, wants to use mods. So, said user downloads a mod pack, and plays for a few days/weeks/months, and encounters a bug...... the mod pack was updated with the new version of the fixed mod, but, it requires a clean save for it to properly function. Is the user supposed to attempt to load his game with the ENTIRE pack disabled, prior to updating to the new version? Or do you expect the user to follow directions on how to update properly, by only disabling the one mod that is going to be causing issues?Disabling all of them is most certainly going to trash his game. (especially if there's a bunch of settlement mods in there.....) Expecting users to properly follow directions? That's friggin laughable, as most mod authors are already well aware. Users that install their own mods individually are already notorious deficient in their reading skills. (not all, maybe not even most, but, there are more than you would really like to think, and they WILL be coming back with "your update broke my game!") Nope. Mod packs are simply a BAD idea. The mechanics of the game, and modding, simply does not support it. Your hypothetical scenario above is predicated on someone (lets call them the curator) putting together a mod pack which contains a bug bad enough to require patching, it requires the modpack being downloaded and used by someone who presents the combined attributes of not understanding about having to clean save files, of not understanding the risks of modpacks, of blaming the wrong person. Essentially the two individuals who you use as the example represent the worst least involved modders out there, at which point if they've broken their game it wont matter (to them) whether they got the mods from a pack or from someone recommending a list of mods because in either case they will b&@*$ and moan and not take responsibility. ipso facto: whether a modpack was involved at all will not change the resulting annoyance you predict them raining down on the original/individual mod authors. Quote Ethreon wrote: There will always be bugs. And you seem to live with the impression that mod pack users are people that know what they do, which is highly unlikely - most probably mod pack users will be those that don't know how to mod safely and just want a plug n play button.@EthreonSadly you are just wrong. I know how to mod perfectly fine. I still want mod packs.Second, people who don't know how to mod safely would have more issues without mod packs. At least a decent mod pack has been tested. Them trying to put one together themselves, they will likely make far more mistakes and have many more issues that they will then go and blame on the author of the mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thandal Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 As has been pointed out many times, presuming all authors' rights and permissions issue are addressed satisfactorily, Mod Packs are a great idea... right up until one or more mods in the pack change, or need to be changed. Then the wailing begins. And one or more mods in the pack will always change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kedavix Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 1:12 PM, Thandal said: As has been pointed out many times, presuming all authors' rights and permissions issue are addressed satisfactorily, Mod Packs are a great idea... right up until one or more mods in the pack change, or need to be changed. Then the wailing begins. And one or more mods in the pack will always change. I'd like to add that people will find ways to blame authors for mods not working as expected even when there are mod packs and one good example reason as to why is quoted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozoak Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Well, this is quite the circular argument isn't it.As has also been pointed out before, not all mods requiring updates will make a set of mods, be that a 'pack', 'collection' or just all the mods currently in use invalid or cause wailing.Will some collections of mods be broken by a single mod within the pack being updated? Yeah, probably.Will all collections of mods be broken by a single mod within the pack being updated? No, not likely. And here's the thing. If someone installs a 'collection' and it's got some awful bug in it due to one mod, they can identify which mod it is causing the problem (and individually update it), or they'll lack the skills to identify which mod it is (in which case they'll wail at the 'collection' maker, not the individual mod maker), or they'll simply remove the 'collection' and either try to build their own (based on the mods they saw in the collection) or try a new 'collection'. All of which will be exactly the same as it is with individual mods. I can accept a few arguments against mod packs/collections as being 100% valid, but the whole "A user who uses one is going to come across a mod that gets updated and breaks their pack, and then they'll b&@*$ at the individual mod author" argument is not amongst them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thandal Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 @ozoak; You don't understand. One "broken" mod can make everything in the pack break. And the users most likely to install "packs" are those least likely to understand why, or be able to tell which one was the problem, or what to do about it. They'll complain loudly and repeatedly, and to any and all authors associated with the pack. We know. We've seen it. That's why such collections are not allowed on the Nexus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethreon Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 In response to post #56820681. Reveal hidden contents Quote Thandal wrote: @ozoak; You don't understand. One "broken" mod can make everything in the pack break. And the users most likely to install "packs" are those least likely to understand why, or be able to tell which one was the problem, or what to do about it.They'll complain loudly and repeatedly, and to any and all authors associated with the pack.We know. We've seen it. That's why such collections are not allowed on the Nexus.Well obviously all your hard evidence and past experiences pale in front of these folks' arguments, eh? /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted133263User Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 10:50 PM, ozoak said: Well, this is quite the circular argument isn't it.As has also been pointed out before, not all mods requiring updates will make a set of mods, be that a 'pack', 'collection' or just all the mods currently in use invalid or cause wailing.Will some collections of mods be broken by a single mod within the pack being updated? Yeah, probably.Will all collections of mods be broken by a single mod within the pack being updated? No, not likely. And here's the thing. If someone installs a 'collection' and it's got some awful bug in it due to one mod, they can identify which mod it is causing the problem (and individually update it), or they'll lack the skills to identify which mod it is (in which case they'll wail at the 'collection' maker, not the individual mod maker), or they'll simply remove the 'collection' and either try to build their own (based on the mods they saw in the collection) or try a new 'collection'. All of which will be exactly the same as it is with individual mods. I can accept a few arguments against mod packs/collections as being 100% valid, but the whole "A user who uses one is going to come across a mod that gets updated and breaks their pack, and then they'll *censored* at the individual mod author" argument is not amongst them. :teehee: :laugh: .. Couldn't find enough ROFL type emotes to convey the message Every single forum topic that turns into a mod pack discussion always develops and ends the same = Inconclusive complex issue where there is lots of desire for simple, and lots of argument against, no matter how strong either side puts forth all the relevant bullet points and counter arguments. If you think the individual mod authors will not be harrassed to death because of the ineptitude of the pack author to solve issues beyond his knowledge (which usually equates to throwing the mods together and has no clue about modding intricacies) .. You are a bit green about the gills. The various TES communities over the last 12 years have seen some pretty concerted and respectful attempts at creating mod packs, getting all permissions from all angles (even where an individual mod author sought permission from third parties resources, those were re-affirmed for the purpose of the mod pack), and those projects were attempted by some pretty dedicated individuals with a lot of technical know-how .. .. All of whom eventually gave up. The few that made an actual mod pack, soon realised that there were many technical hitches which were not anticipated, and regretfully could not support fixing the issues (which obviously then the crowd goes "Hmm, I have a bright idea, wouldn't the original author help .. lets go and ask"). Skill / knowledge fade by third parties is a foregone conclusion. There are many legendary mod authors who simply will not agree to having their mods included purely because they know of all the crap that will ensue and inevitably will be directed their way because they are the experts in their chosen field of modding. Once you start giving people tools to make mod packs easier, along will come the people who care less about intricate permissions and intellectual property / copyright, who will just bang packs together without any concern for peoples long term save games getting messed up to hell. Right now Skyrim Special Edition Nexus is filling up with newbie mod authors who thought they could take on someone elses project for the new game .. Who become surprisingly busy RL when asked questions they do not understand that the original author would have had a bank of Q and A ready for. Times that circumstance by how big a mod pack grows. Dark0ne has already covered all the appropriate reasons as to why there will not be support for mod packs in a few other news articles recently, here's one on Reddit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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