Giving up on Vortex for now

[KarebuS]

I think what it boils down to is "I don't want to learn a new (better) way to do a thing because I hate change and learning wastes my time."

For most people anyway.

[Ethreon]

I think what it boils down to is "I don't want to learn a new (better) way to do a thing because I hate change and learning wastes my time."

For most people anyway.

 

I used to hammer nails using a hammer, like most folks, but then you showed me the way and now I'm using a screwdriver to beat nails in.

[HeyYou]

I think what it boils down to is "I don't want to learn a new (better) way to do a thing because I hate change and learning wastes my time."

For most people anyway.

Better for whom? And how is it actually better? If I want to move a mod down below another mod, I would like to be able to just grab it, and drag it down there, not edit some rule, possibly several times, before it ends up in the right place.... which may only last until I add another mod.

[MarchinBunny]

 

I think what it boils down to is "I don't want to learn a new (better) way to do a thing because I hate change and learning wastes my time."

For most people anyway.

Better for whom? And how is it actually better? If I want to move a mod down below another mod, I would like to be able to just grab it, and drag it down there, not edit some rule, possibly several times, before it ends up in the right place.... which may only last until I add another mod.

 

Again you don't know what you are even talking about. Why would it only last till you add another mod? What on earth are you talking about? That isn't how this works. If you are going to make an argument against something, please at least first understand what is you are arguing against. XD

[MarchinBunny]

 

There is a lot of reasons why it's tough to understand why you want the old way back with Vortex.

1. It's really not needed. There is no good reason why you would need to sort your load order manually. You should only be sorting mods that need to be sorted for compatibility issues.

2. You have not actually once explained how LOOT is more trouble than it's worth for you. You just make the claim and you never actually get into why or how.

3. Whether or not you need LOOT is irrelevant. I don't need a calculator but I use one anyway because it saves time. Not needing something useful is never a good argument.

4. If you don't make load orders with many conflicts then why do you care so much about how Vortex is sorting? That literally means it doesn't take you long to sort your load order. Meaning you would not even need to create a whole lot of rules. I really cannot understand where you seem to see a problem here.

5. Technically, you are not losing any control. You can still order your mods however you want by creating rules. So if a person wanted to do it wrong, they still could.

6. No one said you specifically were doing it wrong. If you are ordering your load order by category, then yes you are doing it wrong. If you are not doing that, then we were not talking to you about doing it wrong. However, if you find LOOT so useless and more trouble than it's worth, I am really curious how exactly you do your load order differently. Load order is just about preventing compatibility issues and that is what LOOT attempts to do. It's not perfect, but it's certainly a lot better than doing it entirely manual every single time. Especially since you can set the rules you need and it will remember those rules for the next time you sort. Meaning it only needs to be done once.

 

 

Vortex is not providing a "new" way, so far as I can tell it's just LOOT conformed to the Vortex UI. I see this as a stripped down version of the old way that obfuscates what was once clear.

 

1. Your opinion.

 

2. LOOT does not effectively resolve conflicts in load orders. It requires more work than putting plugins where I know I want them - why make a rule, other rules relative to that rule, and so on when I could simply put the files where I want. LOOT cannot know how I want conflicts resolved because I am a human with particular goals in mind. LOOT cannot "resolve" all conflicts anyway, I have to use other software for that because it is more complicated than load order. LOOT relies on a list of rules made by other people for games that have a continuous stream of mod releases. These other people cannot know what I want to happen, so they are effectively controlling my game unless I use "rules". Instead of all this needless abstraction I can put the file where I want in the list and be done with it (in the end it is just a list). If the people that run the LOOT project can know where files should be placed in the list relative to other files that means I can know too, which means I can do it myself. That is a very, very brief rationale why I don't want to use it most of the time. Hopefully this explanation will suffice. If you think I'm crazy, fine. The solution has been made clear, wait for the API and inevitable extension.

 

3. It is not irrelevant, I use the Vortex too. Your calculator analogy makes no sense.

 

4. I was trying to say a lot in a brief amount of space (and still used too many words). "Conflict" in relation to Bethesda games is a big word. I'm not going spell out how Bethesda games load files, the information is available elsewhere. The problem is that I have to make rules and set priorities at all. As secondary functionality this could be useful, but as primary functionality it is cumbersome. I want my load order organized in a human readable way (the real load order, not the UI presentation of the load order), which is not "wrong" to do. Yes, load order is primarily about conflict resolution, but their are other concerns, such as I need to be able to understand the list with my human brain, which does not operate as a computer processor. If this is an issue for Tannin and others, and is absolutely ridiculous as has been implied, well I'm sorry, it's not to me. I am still having trouble understanding why this is a thing, other than the prevailing need in tech to "protect" people from themselves. I prefer to make mistakes and learn from them, it's much more fun. EDIT: I never said I don't have long complex load orders, just that I keep conflicts to a minimum. I know, generally, what is in the files and their archives and when there are conflicts I know how I want them resolved. Resolving those conflicts often has nothing to do with load order and requires modifying the files with other tools. A "conflict" often means I will only get one thing or the other in game unless I edit the files.

 

5. I have done it in Vortex and it is a tedious, unfriendly experience. Technically possible does not equal a good user experience.

 

6. Again, your opinion. Yes, Tannin has said I am misusing modding software by using it's provided functionality. Not me personally, but his statements apply to my use, even though he is framing (most of) his statements behind "90%" of (uninformed) users, wherever that figure came from. There is nothing wrong with organizing how files are loaded by the game in a human understandable format, as long as the primary organization is about conflict resolution. I prefer to understand what is happening and not view things through layers of abstraction designed to "protect" me. I could just not auto-sort and have the files in the list where I want, no rules necessary. I don't know why this is so controversial all of a sudden, seems normal to me.

 

As far as I am concerned the above only applies to load order, I think the "MODS" tab is great, aside from the bugs :laugh:. Managing overwrites in the manner provided by that section seems good, and the sorting the list by name and category works in a way I can understand easily (if the names were alphabetically sorted of course). But I also understand people wanting drag and drop there too, if they are coming from MO. Drag and drop is intuitive and fast. Then again, I usually don't bother with loose file mods or manually pack them in BSA/BA2 archives, depending on the game, so there's that. But managing mod archives is a different topic.

 

1. Not really my opinion, it's just a fact unless you can provide me an example of where you would need to sort an entire load order manually. No one has thus far. I have heard cases where someone wants categorize all their mods in their load order, but that isn't what load order is for. I have heard a person who wants to keep their mod in the exact same spot when they add a mod, and Tannin is working on that. I have heard some wanting to make temporary moves. That also does not require the old way, it just requires temporary rules. Where exactly is it needed? How come no one has been able to provide a good enough example if it was actually needed? You would think if it was needed so much, you would be able to actually know why that is. But in most cases, the answer is .... because I want it.

 

2. Creating rules allows you to put them where you want, it's just a different way to do it. A better way even because of at least the rules last so you don't have to do it over and over any time you change things and need to sort again. LOOT will resolve conflicts that are required. Anything else that you want to do you can do manually using rules. Again, this new system is not preventing you from doing that. You saying how LOOT doesn't know what you want to do in some cases is fine because you can manually change that. It's really not complicated and also, you only need to do it once. You make it sound like rules are so difficult and absurd to use, and they really are not. You are just being absolutely ridiculous about it.

Also, it isn't about knowing how to do it yourself. I don't know how many times I need to tell people like you this. This tool is for the community not YOU. This is not a tool designed specifically for you for goodness sakes. You can whine and complain all you like, but that is the fact of the matter. If you want to do it the old way, then wait for someone to make an extension for it or go for one of the current workarounds.

 

3. My calculator analogy makes perfect sense dude. LOOT is an automatic way to sort your load order. A calculator is an automatic way to make a calculation. Both are not necessarily needed but both are a tool to make the job faster and less of a hassle. Have you ever worked as a cashier? They force you to use a calculator because a calculator makes fewer mistakes. Even if you believe you know the best way to order your mods, you are still more likely to make more mistakes than LOOT will. Why? Well, LOOT is grabbing information from anyone who gives it that information. It's not like there is a single person there who decides the rules. No no no, it's mod authors who tell LOOT their mod needs to be loaded after such and such. Sure, it's not going to be able to decide for you on specific things, like maybe a certain mod should be loaded after another if you want to use a specific function from it but not from the other. But that is what the rules are for. You can tell LOOT to do that, and it's not exactly hard to do, and it only needs to be done one time.

 

4. It's not cumbersome at all, you are just being incredibly biased and not giving the new system a chance at all. They even have a drag and drop method to set a rule for those who are lazy. I mean you are modding for goodness sake, you would think laziness would not be an issue. But jeez am I surprised. XD We are talking about at the most a second or two extra and you are complaining about it being cumbersome lol. A load order is not meant to be organized in a "human-readable" way. I don't even understand what on earth you mean by that. Do you mean you want your load order to be visualized in a human-readable way? The rules don't prevent that so I don't know what you are on about. You look and see Mod A needs to be loaded after mod B, so you set specifically that rule in a very human-readable way. Mod A after Mod B. Ohhh, ya I can see how that is super complicated and humans are incapable of figuring that one out. >.> Also, doesn't a list still exist for you to look at and read as you normally would, the only difference is the method in which you move the mods? So I don't see how it's less readable. Making mistakes is fun, sure. But that isn't a valid reason to include something in a software that doesn't need it.

 

If you were so keen on making mistakes and learning from them, you probably shouldn't be using a mod manager at all. XD This is how human society works. We find a better way to do things, and we start doing them that way. Why? Because that is called progress.

 

5. Well, I can't imagine it's that tedious because I been doing load order through LOOT for some time. I think this a matter of you going in expecting to hate it and so while you use it, you end up hating it. You decided how it would be before you ever actually gave it a chance. It's like a person who is trying some new food but decides it's gross before they taste it. They are more likely to think it tastes gross because of that even when it actually isn't. Technically speaking, LOOT rules gives you far more control and power over your load order than the previous system. You just have to know how to use it. Which it's not that hard if you give it a chance and let it grow on you a bit.

 

6. That is fine, then just wait till someone makes an extension and do everything the hard way. >.> Load order literally requires knowledge of every single mod you are installing. The author of the mod is likely going to know more than you do and that is where LOOT gets its rules from in the master list. Trial and error and learning from mistakes are absolutely silly in this regard because you are trying to play a dang game, not create something. You are just wasting your time for really no reason at all. How does it help you to understand where a mod must go in your load order when there is something that can do it automatically? What does this knowledge give you? The answer is, it allows you to sort your load order manually and that is it. But what uses is that if there is an automatic way to do it? I don't get why people prefer wasting so much time over nonsense. I can understand building a car from scratch, or a computer or any number of other things that actually give you a result of the hard work. In this case, you are doing it the hard way for no other reason than to do it the hard way. It doesn't give you a better result it just takes more time.

 

Drag and dropping is only intuitive when it makes sense to have it. It actually can be counterintuitive if it creates a situation where more people end up messing things up because of it. Just because something feels easier to use doesn't mean it's intuitive. Seriously, open up a dictionary and look up what the word intuitive means. It's like something being instinctive and true. But in order for that to work, it needs to be correct. If it's doing things wrong, it's not intuitive, it's just dumb.

 

[d81]

 

1. Not really my opinion, it's just a fact unless you can provide me an example of where you would need to sort an entire load order manually. No one has thus far. I have heard cases where someone wants categorize all their mods in their load order, but that isn't what load order is for. I have heard a person who wants to keep their mod in the exact same spot when they add a mod, and Tannin is working on that. I have heard some wanting to make temporary moves. That also does not require the old way, it just requires temporary rules. Where exactly is it needed? How come no one has been able to provide a good enough example if it was actually needed? You would think if it was needed so much, you would be able to actually know why that is. But in most cases, the answer is .... because I want it.

 

2. Creating rules allows you to put them where you want, it's just a different way to do it. A better way even because of at least the rules last so you don't have to do it over and over any time you change things and need to sort again. LOOT will resolve conflicts that are required. Anything else that you want to do you can do manually using rules. Again, this new system is not preventing you from doing that. You saying how LOOT doesn't know what you want to do in some cases is fine because you can manually change that. It's really not complicated and also, you only need to do it once. You make it sound like rules are so difficult and absurd to use, and they really are not. You are just being absolutely ridiculous about it.

Also, it isn't about knowing how to do it yourself. I don't know how many times I need to tell people like you this. This tool is for the community not YOU. This is not a tool designed specifically for you for goodness sakes. You can whine and complain all you like, but that is the fact of the matter. If you want to do it the old way, then wait for someone to make an extension for it or go for one of the current workarounds.

 

3. My calculator analogy makes perfect sense dude. LOOT is an automatic way to sort your load order. A calculator is an automatic way to make a calculation. Both are not necessarily needed but both are a tool to make the job faster and less of a hassle. Have you ever worked as a cashier? They force you to use a calculator because a calculator makes fewer mistakes. Even if you believe you know the best way to order your mods, you are still more likely to make more mistakes than LOOT will. Why? Well, LOOT is grabbing information from anyone who gives it that information. It's not like there is a single person there who decides the rules. No no no, it's mod authors who tell LOOT their mod needs to be loaded after such and such. Sure, it's not going to be able to decide for you on specific things, like maybe a certain mod should be loaded after another if you want to use a specific function from it but not from the other. But that is what the rules are for. You can tell LOOT to do that, and it's not exactly hard to do, and it only needs to be done one time.

 

4. It's not cumbersome at all, you are just being incredibly biased and not giving the new system a chance at all. They even have a drag and drop method to set a rule for those who are lazy. I mean you are modding for goodness sake, you would think laziness would not be an issue. But jeez am I surprised. XD We are talking about at the most a second or two extra and you are complaining about it being cumbersome lol. A load order is not meant to be organized in a "human-readable" way. I don't even understand what on earth you mean by that. Do you mean you want your load order to be visualized in a human-readable way? The rules don't prevent that so I don't know what you are on about. You look and see Mod A needs to be loaded after mod B, so you set specifically that rule in a very human-readable way. Mod A after Mod B. Ohhh, ya I can see how that is super complicated and humans are incapable of figuring that one out. >.> Also, doesn't a list still exist for you to look at and read as you normally would, the only difference is the method in which you move the mods? So I don't see how it's less readable. Making mistakes is fun, sure. But that isn't a valid reason to include something in a software that doesn't need it.

 

If you were so keen on making mistakes and learning from them, you probably shouldn't be using a mod manager at all. XD This is how human society works. We find a better way to do things, and we start doing them that way. Why? Because that is called progress.

 

5. Well, I can't imagine it's that tedious because I been doing load order through LOOT for some time. I think this a matter of you going in expecting to hate it and so while you use it, you end up hating it. You decided how it would be before you ever actually gave it a chance. It's like a person who is trying some new food but decides it's gross before they taste it. They are more likely to think it tastes gross because of that even when it actually isn't. Technically speaking, LOOT rules gives you far more control and power over your load order than the previous system. You just have to know how to use it. Which it's not that hard if you give it a chance and let it grow on you a bit.

 

6. That is fine, then just wait till someone makes an extension and do everything the hard way. >.> Load order literally requires knowledge of every single mod you are installing. The author of the mod is likely going to know more than you do and that is where LOOT gets its rules from in the master list. Trial and error and learning from mistakes are absolutely silly in this regard because you are trying to play a dang game, not create something. You are just wasting your time for really no reason at all. How does it help you to understand where a mod must go in your load order when there is something that can do it automatically? What does this knowledge give you? The answer is, it allows you to sort your load order manually and that is it. But what uses is that if there is an automatic way to do it? I don't get why people prefer wasting so much time over nonsense. I can understand building a car from scratch, or a computer or any number of other things that actually give you a result of the hard work. In this case, you are doing it the hard way for no other reason than to do it the hard way. It doesn't give you a better result it just takes more time.

 

Drag and dropping is only intuitive when it makes sense to have it. It actually can be counterintuitive if it creates a situation where more people end up messing things up because of it. Just because something feels easier to use doesn't mean it's intuitive. Seriously, open up a dictionary and look up what the word intuitive means. It's like something being instinctive and true. But in order for that to work, it needs to be correct. If it's doing things wrong, it's not intuitive, it's just dumb.

 

 

 

I have no comment. Your response is perfect, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thank you.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

 

 

People rant a lot against this feature, but they do it within minutes of using Vortex for the first time.

 

 

Nah, I've used LOOT on and off for a long time, and hated every minute of it, and always ended up going back to Wrye Bash where I have control over my load order with drag and drop.

The Meta tags for load order sorting were the WORST thing about LOOT and was always the reason I would end up dropping LOOT, because it NEVER sorted my load order properly, and it was overly complicated to get a working load order with the meta tags.

Newbies are going to run into circular references when they try and set up mods to load after a certain mod, and it's very easy to do in LOOT.

 

I'm a visual person, I need to see my load order in the exact way it's loading, I'm bad with hidden data, like metadata for LOOT ordering

Some people are very visual, others aren't, hopefully there's a way both can be achieved.

 

 

And on the flip side, I use LOOT all the time. Barring an occasional need to move 1 mod or another that LOOT doesn't do right, I love it and use it for everything. Time saver and it (mostly) works. There's 2 sides to every coin.

 

 

I never said there wasn't, I was just addressing tannin42's assumption that people used the loot feature in Vortex for a few minutes and 'gave up and complained", when in fact, people such as myself have used that feature long before Vortex, via LOOT.

Some of us liked it, others of us (The visual ones like me) HATED it.

I was just pointing out it's not really fair to say that the feature was used only for a short period of time by people who then complained about it, when I know myself have used LOOT for a few months hating the Meta Data the entire time, but believing when I was told it was the best way to set your loot order.

After a couple months of wasting time doing it that way, I scrapped LOOT and it's Meta Data way of doing things, and wen back to manually sorting my load order

[HadToRegister]

 

1. Not really my opinion, it's just a fact unless you can provide me an example of where you would need to sort an entire load order manually. No one has thus far. I have heard cases where someone wants categorize all their mods in their load order, but that isn't what load order is for. I have heard a person who wants to keep their mod in the exact same spot when they add a mod, and Tannin is working on that. I have heard some wanting to make temporary moves. That also does not require the old way, it just requires temporary rules. Where exactly is it needed? How come no one has been able to provide a good enough example if it was actually needed? You would think if it was needed so much, you would be able to actually know why that is. But in most cases, the answer is .... because I want it.

 

 

 

You say everything is a FACT, and then everything you say after the word FACT is "I have heard"

 

Unless you're on the development team, why don't you let us talk to Tannin42 instead of acting like some gatekeeper and make us wade through page-long responses that would be better left to the developer of Vortex to respond to instead of a person who just wants to convince all of us we're wrong because we don't see things YOUR way, OK?

 

People are trying to give feedback, what we're not trying to do is have page long responses to why our feedback is wrong and why can't we just see things YOUR way, let Tannin42 respond, all of your responses are that we all want to do things "The hard way", because we don't want to do them YOUR way.

 

 

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

1. Not really my opinion, it's just a fact unless you can provide me an example of where you would need to sort an entire load order manually. No one has thus far. I have heard cases where someone wants categorize all their mods in their load order, but that isn't what load order is for. I have heard a person who wants to keep their mod in the exact same spot when they add a mod, and Tannin is working on that. I have heard some wanting to make temporary moves. That also does not require the old way, it just requires temporary rules. Where exactly is it needed? How come no one has been able to provide a good enough example if it was actually needed? You would think if it was needed so much, you would be able to actually know why that is. But in most cases, the answer is .... because I want it.

 

 

 

You say everything is a FACT, and then everything you say after the word FACT is "I have heard"

 

Unless you're on the development team, why don't you let us talk to Tannin42 instead of acting like some gatekeeper and make us wade through page-long responses that would be better left to the developer of Vortex to respond to instead of a person who just wants to convince all of us we're wrong because we don't see things YOUR way, OK?

 

People are trying to give feedback, what we're not trying to do is have page long responses to why our feedback is wrong and why can't we just see things YOUR way, let Tannin42 respond, all of your responses are that we all want to do things "The hard way", because we don't want to do them YOUR way.

 

 

 

I don't know what your point is in your first line. "I have heard", isn't the same as "I guess" in the context it was used in. I am talking about things people have literally said within this thread or other threads on this topic which has nothing to do with the fact I had mentioned. If I say the earth has gravity, but I have heard others think differently. That does not invalidate the fact. Understand? Jeez ... (Also, I did not say everything is a fact either.)

 

As for Tannin, I got news for you, he has already responded plenty of times. So what exactly is your problem? Seriously, go back and read his responses. Don't take it from me if you don't want to, he has literally already said everything I have. Pay attention before you respond next time. You have not said anything new that Tannin has not already responded to. Heck, it wasn't even that long ago that Tannin gave a pretty definite response on the matter.

 

Here is a little help for you since you were incapable of going back a single page.

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6357846-giving-up-on-vortex-for-now/?p=57331961

Edited February 6, 2018 by Brabbit1987

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

 

I never said there wasn't, I was just addressing tannin42's assumption that people used the loot feature in Vortex for a few minutes and 'gave up and complained", when in fact, people such as myself have used that feature long before Vortex, via LOOT.

Some of us liked it, others of us (The visual ones like me) HATED it.

I was just pointing out it's not really fair to say that the feature was used only for a short period of time by people who then complained about it, when I know myself have used LOOT for a few months hating the Meta Data the entire time, but believing when I was told it was the best way to set your loot order.

After a couple months of wasting time doing it that way, I scrapped LOOT and it's Meta Data way of doing things, and wen back to manually sorting my load order

 

And that is why extensions are a thing. Tannin had considered that the way he is doing it may not be for everyone. Again, something he has already said, and I am just repeating because people don't seem to know how to listen.

You say you want to hear from him but he has already responded plenty of times. What else do you expect him to say? Is the only thing you will hear ... "oh yes ... yes, I will do that for you right away, because you want it"?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Brabbit1987