Giving up on Vortex for now

[nexususer01]

As a lead developer yourself if the issues you know of are not on this list .. Then open up your own topic and list them for the benefit of development.

 

But what is the point of reporting anything when all you are going to get is

 

"yeah, I understand what you want, but we don't care because we do it as we want." or

 

"oh, i see, that there is a problem, but it's ok, it won't break anything. we can't fix it anyway." or

 

"we hard coded the application to work only from C:\Program Files, if you want it to work like the 90% of other Win32 applications it is your fault".

[Ethreon]

It's been pointed out the hard install will change in future updates.

[Guest deleted34304850]

Individual file conflict resolution is on the todo list. But why do you need exact plugin positioning?

why would you not offer that? it seems to be a no-brainer to me. if the position of the mod in the load order doesnt matter to the game, then that's fine and dandy from the perspective of the game, but humans don't read a load order as a chunk of storage they read it visually and like to group related mods together. creating rulesets to 'game' the load order is a bit long-winded. why not allow manual placement for ease of use?

[Hilli1]

And it would help immensly if people would start talking about how best to do mod organization...

 

 

Well. I fiddled around with Vortex many hours today. Firstly I toggled off the tab "install order" in the mods-tab to get the habitual sorting method from MO2 out of my head. Then I generated lots of custom categories, if necessary with child categories. The names of my new categories beginning with a number, e.g. 01 - Modders Ressources, 02 - Bug Fixes and so on. Child-categories I created among others for textures, e.g. 12.01 - Textures Architecture, 12.02 - Textures Clutter, 12.03 - Textures Landscape and so on. This way I was able to build a proper structure when I sort by categories. So far so good. Looking into the mods of a categorie shows me that the mods in there are not sorted. I can only sort by categories or by name. So here is my little suggestion for improvement: It would help, when we could sort 1.) by categorie and after this is done 2.) by name of the mod.

[d81]

 

 

 

I often have to help correct player's load order when they come to my Fallout 4 mod page because of LOOT. They say "LOOT put it here..." and I have to politely explain to them that LOOT is wrong, put it there. And they do and go "it works!". My mod is designed to be loaded a particular way, under particular mods, and above others. LOOT puts it at the top of the load order, which is the worst place it could be and practically guarantees it will be broken. How that is helpful or good IDK. Now they are going to have to set priorities...

 

 

And if you had put that knowledge into the loot masterlist, which you can do, you wouldn't have to answer it ever again because loot would stop putting it in the wrong place. See, better. QED

 

 

:wallbash: I don't see the point of continuing to be involved in this discussion. I wish you the best of luck with LOOT and your masterlist.

[HardwareSc8]

Based on that statement, it's unlikely you'll see this, but I'll put it here for others who are willing to think about these things:

 

No matter how hard you try, no matter how much hate you pour on it, LOOT is not going to go away.

Its prevalence and integration with multiple different mod managers indicates that a rather large, if silent, majority of users are fine and reasonably happy with it.

You say there has been problems with it. Fine, and valid. I don't think anyone is arguing that. However, Tannin offered a proactive solution to that problem that works within the framework that has, realistically, become the standard for the community at large. I fail to see how anything but blind hatred makes that solution unviable and/or not worth the little bit of effort to implement. Without implementation, it's ultimately impossible to know whether Tannin's recommendation is the best solution or not.

 

I understand that Vortex represents a change in how some of us in the community go about these kinds of mod-related activities. Yes, it does require some learning. Yes, that learning does require a bit of effort. But that's not a bad thing.

Change is not inherently positive or negative, good or bad. It's the end result of that change that matters. But we can't know what the end result will be if we blindly reject the change on the basis that it's change.

 

I know I'm being ridiculous, asking for this on the Internet, but we as testers need to keep an open mind, and come at this thoughtfully. The goal of this testing period, really, is to evaluate the functionality of Vortex as a piece of software, in isolation. The past few days of posts have been mostly unhelpful. Attempting to relitigate an issue that Tannin has essentially closed, with detailed reasoning as to why it's closed, buries posts that testers who are attempting to actually test various features currently in the software might have made.

 

Now that I've said all that, I intend for this to be my last post on this subject. I can't promise that I'll remember to hold myself to this, but I'll try.

[AL12]

To me the problem with plugin loadorder seems pretty simple Tannin.

New users and casual users dont want to care about load order, you saw this correctly and included automatic Loot sorting.
As these users start to get bigger setups, loadorder problems may arise so adjustments might be needed. You saw this too and implemented the loot rule system integrated in the gui.
But then there are good number of modders by now (considering Skyrim was released in 2011) that are veterans, have complicaed setups and are well versed in the modding knowledge. These obviously include the mod creators themselves.
These people will also need a manager bu not for the goal of running the game without problems but to develop things.

Adopting the Loot system as a primary system is a very good idea since it's the correct way of doing things and many users wan it to be like that (something that they don't have to care about if not in rare cases). But for the veteran modders and mod creators having to set individual rules just to move a plugin in determined spot to test somethig, then removing thise rules and set up new ones to move it again, its just not convenient enough. Now you have said different times that there is no reason to move a plugin in a particular spot because the underlaying problem is a conflict not the position that matters, you are right and you then argued that rules is the right way to go because they are the appropriate answer to the underlying problem which is a conflict. A agree to that, but what if I have a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins? The correct way of doing it for an end user is to setup 15 rules and he would never have to worry after that, but for the mod creator or the advanced modder that wants to change that to test things, he needs to track down the rules he set up, disable them and put up 15 new rules just to try a different configuration. Using positioning for a plugin in a list of 100 plugins is the equivalent of instantly setting 99 rules. You make a really valid argument saying that probably 80 of those rules are redundant, but you can't argue againts how much this is more convenient and fast. Also as true as it is that rules solve the underlaying problem, they are not what the game recieves in imput: the game expects a sequenatil list of plugins. People can counter argue that Vortex is complicating something that is simple and sequential with rules that are not simple and sequential. It is just much easier to think of a list than a set of rules. There are many occasions where putting a plugin manually somewhere is simpler, as an example, somebody creates his own plugin and wants to quickly test it. Does he first look what kind of conflict he has with what mods and sets all the rules accordingly just to test it a moment, of course not. He just wants to put it somewhere he knows won't make problems, drag and drop will let him do that without even having to think. It is not the right thing to do, but he is not looking to resolve conflicts at this moment, he is looking to test if his plugin without having others overwrite it. Yes you can use the rules to give it a global priority or make it load after the last but these are not correct rules, they are saying that that plugin needs to alwasy load after the others or after waht happend to be the last one at that moment, which is not reflecting an actual conflict solution. The guy is forced to create a rule that is not true just to make a quick test. In that case those rules are jsut as imporper as imposing 99 rules with positioning, but positioning is just way more convenient and fast.

The way I would personally want to manage my loadorder is to let Loot order things by itself for the most part. If I know that a mod is misplaced by loot I would add a rule for that plugin and then be glad to let loot do its thing. If I need to test plugin or I need to be sure something is laoded correctly I would momentarely enable manual ordering put the mod I want where I want it and run my tests. Once I ended my testing I will then disable manual ordering and procede to add the appropriate rules.

Summarizing my points:
Integrating loot is a great idea and will make life easier for a lot of end users.
The rules system is a good system, it will help improve Loot and you can do everything with it.
But it is not convenient for creator or advanced users that need to move around stuff and rappresent an ulterior abstraction to what is actually being handled, which is a sequential list of plugins.

What people would like to hear is that Vortex will allow in future for drag and drop plugin ordering as a secondary (or even hidden) option.
This way new or casual users will be satisfied with the easy auto ordering, more advanced users can fully utilize the rules system to resolve their conflicts and even more advanced users and creators don't have to sacrifice convenience or ease of use. Everybody would then be happy. I know this means more work but since people won't shut up about it and mod creators are what this community is based on I hope it will be considered.

[HeyYou]

 

What people would like to hear is that Vortex will allow in future for drag and drop plugin ordering as a secondary (or even hidden) option.

This way new or casual users will be satisfied with the easy auto ordering, more advanced users can fully utilize the rules system to resolve their conflicts and even more advanced users and creators don't have to sacrifice convenience or ease of use. Everybody would then be happy. I know this means more work but since people won't shut up about it and mod creators are what this community is based on I hope it will be considered.

 

This. Make it off by default, but, stash some switch in one of the menus to allow it. I generally don't use loot, I manually order my mods anyway. It just works better for me. (and yes, I have tried loot, and no, I didn't particularly care for it.)

[MarchinBunny]

Here is a little exercise for everyone who is against LOOT and the sorting methods used in Vortex. Who is Vortex made for, you, or the community? I think the answer there is obvious, so I am going to assume you answered the community. When you are developing a software for the community and your goal is to bring accessibility to as many people as you can, how do you do it? You make it easier to use. You want people to be able to load it up, and just have it work with as little effort as possible. Sure, on the surface we all know some effort is going to have to be made, but making it easier where it can be, is never a bad thing.

I feel like a lot of people get so caught up in seeing themselves as an "advanced user" they often forget that this crap doesn't need to be advanced just because you want it to be. It's not a software developed just for people like you. It's a software developed for the entire community. I feel like NMM was always the software of choice for a large part of the community despite how advanced MO was specifically because it was more simple and easier to use.

In this case, I feel like Vortex is more advanced than NMM while still keeping it easy, if not easier. It's both advanced and easy and I think that is fantastic. You still have control over your load order and while it might not be as simple as dragging and dropping, in the long run, it's better for everyone. The process might be different, but it achieves what it needs to do and it does a better job of it. Not only that, but for those who don't want to fiddle with load orders, it is more likely to just work, and that is a great thing. That is what this community needs. Making things easier to use for your average user is always going to be a process that takes place in software development because that is how you make a good software.

Can it include the more advanced features? Absolutely. But you have to really give a good explanation as to why you need the feature over what is currently available to you. If what you need is the capability to move a mod in your load order, you already have that functionality. It's there, it's just a bit different. As I have said before, if you are moving tons of mods for very little reason in your load order, you are doing it wrong. I get people don't like being told they are wrong, but in some cases, you just have to accept that you are wrong. Better to accept and learn than to keep your pride and stay ignorant. The only mods you should ever be moving in your load order is when there is a conflict. After LOOT does its thing, I can assure you there will not be that many more mods to move. Take a look at the STEP guide. How many LOOT rules do they need after auto sorting? I think it's about 10. It's really not that many. And keep in mind the more rules submitted to LOOTs master list because more people are using it, the less you will even need to make your own rules.

Wouldn't it be nice if the amount of mods you need to move in your load order is 0?

 

I for one applaud Tannin. I am very happy with this move and I think he is doing an excellent job to really think about what the community as a whole needs to make modding more accessible here. He is thinking things through in a more long-term manner than a short one. He doesn't want more of the same. We already had NMM and MO. He is trying it improve, not repeat.

[MarchinBunny]

 

I generally don't use loot, I manually order my mods anyway. It just works better for me. (and yes, I have tried loot, and no, I didn't particularly care for it.)

 

I think it's very bad when people say things like that with very little explanation as to what issues they had with LOOT. This is why it's so difficult to take anyone here seriously when they complain about LOOT because it just sounds like a rant from people with a very irrational bias toward it.

 

What went wrong when you used LOOT? Did you expect it to order everything perfectly? I can assure you, it will not do that for you as of yet because the rules for mods need to be put in place in the master list. Some mods you will have to order manually at this time. But it still loads quicker than doing it all manually. And if more people use it and the master list is updated constantly, then there will come a point where you will not have to touch the load order at all. I don't care how advanced a person is, that isn't a reason to do everything manually when there is a way to do it automatically just as well. And yes, LOOT can do it just as well if not better, it just needs people to use it and start adding data to the master list.

 

It bugs me that there are so many people against it, but they don't ever seem to have any good reason for it. They just say it didn't work well for them. What on earth did you expect it to do exactly? I don't quite understand. What part of it didn't you care for? If you can't answer these question how do we take people like you serious?

 

Maybe you don't have good answers to these questions? If you don't, then maybe you might want to rethink why you dislike LOOT, because you might find it's more out of bias than it is that it didn't work well for you. You don't want it to work and so when you use it, if it didn't get the entire order right with a single sort you will claim it's not working or something.