Simple manual load ordering plz

[Arthmoor]

It was the rational thing to do, even with NMM and MO.

You want to know why you guys keep getting blowback from me and others on this? Arguing it in terms like this. This statement strongly implies it's irrational to handle load order any other way.

 

It most definitely is not. So it would be nice if you guys would stop subtly implying we're all doing it wrong, are irrational people for doing things this way, etc. Veiled personal attacks like this are not logical arguments.

[Grestorn]

It is not? Ok, enlighten me, why is it irrational to use rules in LOOT (no matter which way you organize your mods)?

[Arthmoor]

I never said it was irrational to use rules in LOOT. My objection is your insistence that doing load order the way it's been done for 15 years now is irrational and the implication that anyone following those methods must also be irrational for doing so.

[Grestorn]

Just as much as you didn't say that using rules is irrational, I didn't say that not using them is irrational. Your argument goes both way, you see... :smile: (and that's exactly point I was trying to make, when I used the term 'irrational'. Saying that something is 'rational' doesn't mean that everything else is irrational, that's why I don't get your offended reaction about my statement).

 

It's fine not to use them. It's fine to do manual sorting (then you have to use another mod manager, though).

 

Still, I think that it's much easier to use them. That's just my opinion. And that goes for both the new, inexperienced user as well as for the experienced and informed one. For different reasons.

 

I don't mind and I don't care for what you're using, that's simply just your decision. But don't tell other people what's better and what's not, especially if your arguments are... well... disputable at least.

 

 

As there were no autosorting and rules in the beginning, everybody had to use his experience and the information at hand to resolve the load order issues by himself (with a lot of help from the community). You're certainly very experienced and know a lot about how mods interact with each other, but even then, a rule based automatism would make life much easier for you, I'm certain of that. That doesn't mean that you HAVE to use them. Most other people, though, with less background information and knowledge than you, will probably come up with much less refined decisions, and in 95% the result is worse than any well maintained ruleset would be able to create.

[Arthmoor]

Just as much as you didn't say that using rules is irrational, I didn't say that not using them is irrational. Your argument goes both way, you see... :smile:

Except... you did:

 

It was the rational thing to do, even with NMM and MO.

That statement can only apply if you believe that NOT doing it that way is irrational.

 

It's fine not to use them. It's fine to do manual sorting (then you have to use another mod manager, though).

 

Still, I think that it's much easier to use them. That's just my opinion.

Having now witnessed the procedure after someone I know took the plunge to try it, I can't possibly see any objective way to call Vortex's method easier than, say, what Wrye Bash does.

 

I mean, seriously? That whole graph thing, dragging one mod onto the other and having to interpret arcane symbols to get what you want done, and then there's no visible feedback afterward? Come on.

 

All that vs drag A over above B. Instant visual feedback int he UI, plugins.txt updated. Game happy.

 

But don't tell other people what's better and what's not, especially if your arguments are... well... disputable at least.

After what I've seen in the last hour, I'm no longer convinced you can dispute my argument. The Vortex process involves far more than anything any other mod manager has ever demanded for this purpose. That's verifiable fact btw, not wild speculation as I'm sure you're going to claim in the next few posts.

[Grestorn]

I've edited my posting to make it clearer ... When reading it, I almost could predict your reaction and tried to avoid that by clarifying some things. Unfortunately, you were already answering to it while I was still editing it.

 

Anyway, the 'rational/irrational" thing is just the same as with your "stubborn" thing a couple of pages back. You don't realize when somebody is turning your own flawed way of arguing against you.

 

 

The graph is for maintaining the groups priority, not the plugin priority. See, you're talking about something, and you even judge it, without any first-hand experience. Instead you base your opinion on people who haven't grasped the tool fully either, yet. Not a good idea.

 

 

And thank you for that personal attack. It's ok, if you have to resort to that.

[Arthmoor]

If you could predict how I'd react, that more or less tells me you subconsciously know I'm right and are trying to avoid just admitting it instead.

 

I am not using a flawed method to argue, so if you think you're turning one against me, perhaps you should consider that you yourself are making flawed arguments. Ascribing your own behavior to others is projection. Not a valid argument method.

 

And you're damn right I'm going to judge the process as i've now seen it. It's convoluted and unnecessary to have to go through all of that just to set your load order the way you want it. You assume I am taking the word of total newbies at modding on the subject. I am not. I take the opinion of someone who knows what they're doing who was fed up with the dancing ya'll are doing in this thread and went to see for himself if your claims held up. They didn't. That's it.

[Dark0ne]

So, lets recap:

• At this time, Vortex does not have "drag and drop" plugin load ordering functionality
• Some people think that's a stupid idea and won't use Vortex, preferring to use something else already available
• Some people don't think that's a stupid idea, and are enjoying/prefer using Vortex

Am I missing anything?

 

If you've got nothing more to add, Arthmoor, let's just leave it there. It's all getting rather cyclical and dull now. We've already had you misrepresenting what I've said once in this topic, after all.

 

If anyone has anything actually new to add to this then, by all means, speak up. But these same tired "arguments", with nothing actually new being said, are meaningless, and only serve to feed the need to argue, rather than the wish to share or provide new insight.

[Rattledagger]

 

Having now witnessed the procedure after someone I know took the plunge to try it, I can't possibly see any objective way to call Vortex's method easier than, say, what Wrye Bash does.

 

I mean, seriously? That whole graph thing, dragging one mod onto the other and having to interpret arcane symbols to get what you want done, and then there's no visible feedback afterward? Come on.

 

All that vs drag A over above B. Instant visual feedback int he UI, plugins.txt updated. Game happy.

 

Going by this description I would guess you're dragging an icon in the Dependency-column to another icon and created a "load after…" rule. While the plugin with the rule did change colour from white to brown/yellowish, I'll agree this method isn't very good.

 

For this reason I'm recommending using Groups instead. In case the Groups column isn't showing, you'll need to enable this column and afterwards you'll immediately see the plugin is now in another Group. Since adding a plugin to a Group is easily done in the drop-down dialogue showing the Groups, this is likely significantly faster operation than using the Dependency-method.

[Arthmoor]

We've already had you misrepresenting what I've said once in this topic, after all.

No, we haven't actually, but in any case I'm fine with dropping all of this since it isn't accomplishing anything for anyone - and never could because Tannin decided this long before the argument ever started to begin with.