Simple manual load ordering plz

[HeyYou]

 

From the I still want the ability to manually drag plugins in the load order and heres why

If that doesn't sound like the title for a reasonable suggestion/argument for manual load ordering, then I don't know what does.

 

 

You're referencing a topic that was answered by Tannin straight away, providing a quick solution to your problem. You've yet to respond to the final post in the thread by Tannin, and you're presenting that as a "good argument" for why manual load ordering should be included, yet it hasn't provided any argument for why manual load ordering should be included.

 

That's not a good argument, that's you wanting a feature. And it's fine to want a feature, but simply wanting a feature doesn't make it a good argument for us doing it in this case.

 

1). let LOOT do the sorting, or they 2). manually sort the entire load order, or they 3). let LOOT sort the load order, then manually sort what they want/need to manually sort.

 

 

Vortex uses LOOT to sort, but if LOOT is somehow wrong or you need to make changes, you can within Vortex. You simply have different tools to do it. The fact of the matter is, Vortex has all the tools to resolve your issue in a timely fashion, but you want to manually sort because that's what you're used to and that's what you think is best for the situation. What we're looking for is an explanation of when you think it's best to use manual sorting over Vortex sorting (literally, a detailed and extensive use-case scenario, not a hypothetical), why you think it's best, and why you think Vortex's tools don't cut it. From the sheer number of posts you've made in these forums over the past few months, time and again the issue has been a lack of understanding of how Vortex works rather than a lack of functionality within Vortex. That's most certainly not intended as a dig at you, as it shows us that, somewhere in Vortex, we haven't got the UI or documentation up to scratch for your use-type.

 

It's being argued, quite incorrectly, to give the impression that "once you sort with LOOT, there's no going back to manual sorting", when in fact, that is not the case, and people have been expressing that in this thread, but they have been ignored.

 

 

Some people have been saying that (though some haven't even used the software), but they've yet to actually provide an example for which Tannin cannot provide an answer of how Vortex's functionality solves the issue.

 

I've removed the fluff at the end of your post as it has no relevance to what we're talking about.

 

People wanting it, and expending a great deal of effort to explain why, isn't a good enough reason? Sure, there may not be a "good TECHNICAL" reason for it. It's just preference. It also makes life easier (to me.) for those mods that LOOT DOESN'T have a rule for. New releases, or, a modders works in progress. (that haven't been released.) From my point of view, it is simply easier to let loot address the BASE load order, then manually drag any outliers to where I want them.

 

Sure, I could just set a rule..... but, for new/unreleased mods, where I am NOT sure where in the load order I actually want them, dragging to a position, testing, possibly moving it again, testing some more, to determine where I really do want it, and THEN set a rule to keep it there.

[LawrenceFB]

 

It's being argued, quite incorrectly, to give the impression that "once you sort with LOOT, there's no going back to manual sorting", when in fact, that is not the case, and people have been expressing that in this thread, but they have been ignored.

 

 

Sorry Dark0ne/Tannin this has come out a bit of a rant, feel free to assign it to the bit bucket if it is over the top, I have tried for over two hours to express my thoughts in a politically correct manner and failed, again.

 

I have to say at the beginning I do wish LOOT would only reorder esps that require it, I.E if esp A has no reason to move below esp B then leave the order alone, this does not always seem to be the case.

 

But absolutely, if you turn off auto sort there is no reason to not allow drag and drop but in that case why use Vortex. If there is a way to do drag and drop without disabling auto sort explain how. You will have to cope with random esps being added/deleted or some of the esps being reorder due to rules/masters.

 

Vortex has chosen, at this time, to use the LOOT api to provide the most stable load order it can for Bethada games. If you want to do it another way look at the source and write it yourself or find someone else to do it. Do not forget to write the documentation, online help and tutorial videos.

 

From what I see other game users cooperate and provide what is needed to support their games on Vortex.

[HadToRegister]

 

You're referencing a topic that was answered by Tannin straight away, providing a quick solution to your problem. You've yet to respond to the final post in the thread by Tannin, and you're presenting that as a "good argument" for why manual load ordering should be included, yet it hasn't provided any argument for why manual load ordering should be included.

 

That's not a good argument, that's you wanting a feature. And it's fine to want a feature, but simply wanting a feature doesn't make it a good argument for us doing it in this case.

 

The problem is, that to you and Tannin, none of our arguments is ever going to be a "good Argument" when you can simply dismiss them because you don't want to consider them.

 

To sum up your response.

There is no argument that can be made to convince you to add Manual Sorting as an option, because you will just keep referring to them as "Haven't provided any good argument for the inclusion of Manual Load Ordering", and "That's not a good argument"

Great.

I get it, you're not going to add it no matter what, as you automatically invalidate every single reason that Manual Load ordering is brought up.

You win.

 

All I've been asking for is the ability to manually sort, for occasions where it's the only solution to fix the load order.

I'm not asking for the entire thing to be scrapped and made "Manual Sort Only"

There's such a knee-jerk defensive reaction whenever manual sorting gets mentioned.

 

I have said time and time again, I LIKE how Vortex is sorting my load order, I wioll probably like it more when official Documents come out on how to use it, but I would also like, the ability to manually drag an esp to another spot when necessary.

 

THAT.IS.ALL.as an option

 

 

Some people have been saying that (though some haven't even used the software), but they've yet to actually provide an example for which Tannin cannot provide an answer of how Vortex's functionality solves the issue.

 

But I already have, in the post about editing the italics rules.

Tannin hasn't answered my problem yet, that could've been solved easily by the ability to manually drag and drop the offending esp in the correct position, and is instead hung up by cyclic rules with absolutely no way to fix it in Vortex.

 

 

 

I've removed the fluff at the end of your post as it has no relevance to what we're talking about.

 

This wasn't "fluff" and it had plenty of relevance, as it showcases how people actually use LOOT, as judged by their responses in other threads concerning LOOT.

Except that it's not a technical reason at all, it's an excuse to not implement it, and here's why.

You can sort with loot, then manually sort/override where a plugin goes, if loot doesn't like where you put the plugin, it will let you know.

As I've stated much earlier in this thread, I know of people (myself included, and I've been using mod managers since the first one was written by Timeslip, for Morrowind (IIRC), along with MLOX, kind of a LOOT for Morrowind), using LOOT for the purpose of a "Suggestion" as to how their loot order should go, then they either 1). let LOOT do the sorting, or they 2). manually sort the entire load order, or they 3). let LOOT sort the load order, then manually sort what they want/need to manually sort.

Usually a combination of the three.

[Tannin42]

Except that it's not a technical reason at all, it's an excuse to not implement it, and here's why.

You can sort with loot, then manually sort/override where a plugin goes, if loot doesn't like where you put the plugin, it will let you know.

 

No it won't. LOOT can not tell you it doesn't like where you put the plugin because LOOT has no way of knowing where you put the plugin.

LOOT has absolutely no information about what changes you made manually with a direct drag&drop system. It will simply rearrange the plugins to how it thinks they should be, potentially overriding your custom changes because - again - LOOT does not know which positions were manually set and which were random/accidental. It is then up to you to figure out which changes LOOT made that you don't like and revert them - aka doing all your custom changes again. If you're a heavy user, modding multiple games at once, potentially even with multiple profiles, that's just not practical.

Neither is it practical when you were away from the game for a month or two and simply don't remember which changes you made.

 

I am of course aware that it's technically possible to run LOOT and then manually order, I mean - come on.

What I'm telling you is that running LOOT overrides your custom changes and so no one in their right mind would run LOOT after spending a significant amount of time manually ordering a load order.

Rules (and groups) are the only way to convey to LOOT what load order changes are important to you, it's simply the only input LOOT takes from the user.

 

So you either use rules and LOOT to do all your ordering or you use LOOT (with the masterlist only) for the preset and from there do everything manual, even after adding additional mods that loot may have an opinion on. In this variant you will not be notified about LOOT disagreeing with your custom changes.

That's the only reasonable approaches.

Both are possible and work, don't get me wrong, but they are both approaches to achieve the same thing. We could argue over which one is easier/better but that's really a matter of taste and beside the point.

Having rules and manual ordering is simply not necessary. I understand that some people may want it, but no one needs it.

And for us, as the people who have to develop, maintain, document and support this it's not in our interest to provide two competing ways to do the same thing.

 

It's being argued, quite incorrectly, to give the impression that "once you sort with LOOT, there's no going back to manual sorting",

 

In the entire time since Vortex was released I can't remember anyone saying that, most certainly no one official.

Again, the inverse is true: Once you did manual sorting you can't use LOOT without invalidating your custom order.

[HadToRegister]

 

In the entire time since Vortex was released I can't remember anyone saying that, most certainly no one official.

Again, the inverse is true: Once you did manual sorting you can't use LOOT without invalidating your custom order.

 

 

I, and everybody else, is fully aware of that, but being able to position an esp manually and then index locking it in Vortex, solves that, just like editing the metadata in LOOT itself, and locking a mod in position.

That is a perfect example of why a manual drag and drop would come in very handy in instances like that.

Manually drag and drop in position, lock index. Just like in the stand alone loot.

[LawrenceFB]

 

In the entire time since Vortex was released I can't remember anyone saying that, most certainly no one official.

Again, the inverse is true: Once you did manual sorting you can't use LOOT without invalidating your custom order.

 

 

 

I spent two hours trying to say that and you said exactly what I was trying too in one line. sigh.

[LawrenceFB]

 

 

In the entire time since Vortex was released I can't remember anyone saying that, most certainly no one official.

Again, the inverse is true: Once you did manual sorting you can't use LOOT without invalidating your custom order.

 

 

I, and everybody else, is fully aware of that, but being able to position an esp manually and then index locking it in Vortex, solves that, just like editing the metadata in LOOT itself, and locking a mod in position.

That is a perfect example of why a manual drag and drop would come in very handy in instances like that.

Manually drag and drop in position, lock index. Just like in the stand alone loot.

 

 

 

Feature creep. If I can drag and drop to do that why can I not drag and drop to do this other special case and so on and so on. Been there, wept the tears of frustration.

[HeyYou]

 

 

 

In the entire time since Vortex was released I can't remember anyone saying that, most certainly no one official.

Again, the inverse is true: Once you did manual sorting you can't use LOOT without invalidating your custom order.

 

 

I, and everybody else, is fully aware of that, but being able to position an esp manually and then index locking it in Vortex, solves that, just like editing the metadata in LOOT itself, and locking a mod in position.

That is a perfect example of why a manual drag and drop would come in very handy in instances like that.

Manually drag and drop in position, lock index. Just like in the stand alone loot.

 

 

 

Feature creep. If I can drag and drop to do that why can I not drag and drop to do this other special case and so on and so on. Been there, wept the tears of frustration.

 

If you can drag and drop to do one, why would you be unable to drag and drop to do the other?

[Tannin42]

 

I, and everybody else, is fully aware of that, but being able to position an esp manually and then index locking it in Vortex, solves that, just like editing the metadata in LOOT itself, and locking a mod in position.

That is a perfect example of why a manual drag and drop would come in very handy in instances like that.

Manually drag and drop in position, lock index. Just like in the stand alone loot.

 

You can enable index lock and then change the index, that has exactly the same effect as drag&dropping and then locking the index.

[HadToRegister]

 

You can enable index lock and then change the index, that has exactly the same effect as drag&dropping and then locking the index.

 

 

How do you do that?