Vortex 1.0 Release

[AliArtemis]

In response to post #72145018. #72145208, #72145393, #72145468, #72145633, #72145733 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: Vortex still has no method of simply and manually sorting mods without creating groups or LOOT rules. To be clear, basic load ordering is a built-in feature for every Bethesda game, and yet Vortex, a program designed to manage a load order, cannot do this. It's more of a front end for LOOT than a proper mod manager.

If you are a new user, I would urge you to use one of the other and more robust mod management options available:

Mod Organizer: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/1334/
Mod Organizer 2: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/6194
Nexus Mod Manager (community updated edition): https://github.com/Nexus-Mods/Nexus-Mod-Manager/releases
Or even Wrye for something a little simpler that still allows for manual control: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/1840/?

On top of that, install LOOT, which is a powerful tool that automatically sorts your load order. If you choose a proper mod manager + LOOT, you have both the option to sort manually and quick automatic sorting. If you choose Vortex, you only have automatic sorting unless you fiddle with convoluted groups and LOOT rules. See the problem? Vortex doesn't give you the same degree of control, but carries with it no advantages that other mod managers can't already do when paired with LOOT.

All of these programs also have significantly more functional user interfaces than Vortex, which wastes an absurd amount of space, resulting in constant scrolling through hilariously oversized lists.

If you choose something other than Vortex, you won't regret it. The only way I'd recommend Vortex is if you are an absolute beginner who only plans to install a few mods, and is okay with relying entirely on automatic sorting, and even then I'd urge you to spend <10 minutes learning another mod manager over Vortex for best results.

Also, the times I have tried Vortex have both resulted in my existing load order being nuked, which was a pain. If you have a game going and already use a different program, don't switch to Vortex unless you are absolutely ready to have to set everything up again. If you're setting up a new load order, obviously, this is not a concern.

Dark0ne wrote: As the people who actually made NMM, MO and Vortex, we disagree with Robbie's assessment.

logan1710 wrote: Ignoring something that 95% of your users want and often asks just because you "disagree" with it, isn't something you should be so open about in the replies.

Dark0ne wrote:

Ignoring something that 95% of your users want

That's a made up number, so I'll ignore it.

isn't something you should be so open about in the replies.

We're open about it in the news, in our wiki, in the software itself and on our forums. I have no problem saying it in comments either.

Robbie922004 wrote: @logan1710 It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did.

But just because I have no problem with their decision doesn't mean I want to use the program that is the result of those decisions. In this case, I definitely would not, and generally think other people should be informed of other options before they choose Vortex. On the other hand, there are definitely lots of folks who like Vortex and that's okay, too. It's fairly inconsequential at the end of the day, the only reason I posted at all is because I saw the news and genuinely think most users will have a worse experience with Vortex than other programs. I always want to see modding go as well as it can for anybody, new and old users alike, and believe strongly that better options exist elsewhere. But hey, I'm just one guy and people can make up their own minds after reviewing the choices for themselves.

Dark0ne wrote: It's perfectly fine for us both to disagree, Robbie.

If we ever have a meetup, I'd love to have a sit down between people who don't understand our reasoning, myself and Tannin and actually have a face to face chat about it, and the logic behind it. Text simply isn't a good medium for these things.

I will say that this choice was Tannin's (and not the other way around), and he's had to convince several of us of the merits of the system over the past few years. But everyone here "gets it", and thankfully, lots of other users do now, too. We'll continue to improve it as time moves on, including the UI that you don't like :P

1. There is no reason to sort your mods manually, and there are many reasons not to, all of which have been covered before in detail. The rules are not convoluted (in fact they are very simple - mod y after mod x, group b after group a) and they are easier to manage than with loot.

2. NMM is an unworkable mess, for reasons that have long since been known. It shouldn't be recommended to switch to NMM, period.

3. "wastes an absurd amount of space, resulting in constant scrolling through hilariously oversized lists"
Disliking the UI spacing is an entirely valid complaint, but one that can be resolved with the custom styles that vortex allows you to create and apply.

4. "The only way I'd recommend Vortex is if you are an absolute beginner who only plans to install a few mods"
As an experienced user who switched from NMM with over 300 mods and worked up to >450 with vortex, I just have to completely and emphatically disagree with this.

5. "Also, the times I have tried Vortex have both resulted in my existing load order being nuked"
Pardon the language, but RTFM. The creators themselves discourage switching mid-playthrough for exactly this reason. Also, *DON'T MANUALLY SORT PLUGINS*

[ACEAidan]

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.

I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.

Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.

[Elianora]

In response to post #72145658.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

 

 

That's because you plainly have no idea what you're talking about.

He is a long-standing member of the community, a highly regarded mod author and generally a very active and liked member of the modding scene.

I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about. Edited July 30, 2019 by Elianora

[sleepsalot]

Still waiting for a single good reason to use Vortex over MO2

[Veratai]

Congratulations for getting Vortex out of beta, guys :)

now i wonder if i could upgrade to it without something getting messed up in my current playthrough o3o

[Tannin42]

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678, #72145908 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.

I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.

ACEAidan wrote: Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.

Vortex lets you sort plugins by the category of the corresponding mod. If you want to see your plugins ordered by what category they are in you don't have to change their load order at all, you just enable the "Mod Categories" column and then sort by that.
But the load order, which determins the mod index, should only be used to resolve conflicts. For users, especially those who don't know all the conflicts between their plugins to try and load order plugins by category can be completely counter productive.

[Elianora]

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678, #72145908, #72146263 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.

I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.

ACEAidan wrote: Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.

Tannin42 wrote: Vortex lets you sort plugins by the category of the corresponding mod. If you want to see your plugins ordered by what category they are in you don't have to change their load order at all, you just enable the "Mod Categories" column and then sort by that.
But the load order, which determins the mod index, should only be used to resolve conflicts. For users, especially those who don't know all the conflicts between their plugins to try and load order plugins by category can be completely counter productive.

It doesn't really matter how well I explain my point of view in this matter. Every time it gets completely disregarded and I get offered a "solution" that is not a solution to my situation or preferences at all.

I'll quote Robbie here:
"It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did."

Hence I said I'll use NMM or hope someone makes an extension like that. You can never make everyone happy. Edited July 30, 2019 by Elianora

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678, #72145908, #72146263, #72146413 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.

I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.

ACEAidan wrote: Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.

Tannin42 wrote: Vortex lets you sort plugins by the category of the corresponding mod. If you want to see your plugins ordered by what category they are in you don't have to change their load order at all, you just enable the "Mod Categories" column and then sort by that.
But the load order, which determins the mod index, should only be used to resolve conflicts. For users, especially those who don't know all the conflicts between their plugins to try and load order plugins by category can be completely counter productive.

Elianora wrote: It doesn't really matter how well I explain my point of view in this matter. Every time it gets completely disregarded and I get offered a "solution" that is not a solution to my situation or preferences at all.

I'll quote Robbie here:
"It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did."

Hence I said I'll use NMM or hope someone makes an extension like that. You can never make everyone happy.

Your preferences are pretty niche, Elianora, but I still love ya :D

[wolfgrimdark]

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678, #72145908, #72146263, #72146413, #72146538 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.

I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.

ACEAidan wrote: Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.

Tannin42 wrote: Vortex lets you sort plugins by the category of the corresponding mod. If you want to see your plugins ordered by what category they are in you don't have to change their load order at all, you just enable the "Mod Categories" column and then sort by that.
But the load order, which determins the mod index, should only be used to resolve conflicts. For users, especially those who don't know all the conflicts between their plugins to try and load order plugins by category can be completely counter productive.

Elianora wrote: It doesn't really matter how well I explain my point of view in this matter. Every time it gets completely disregarded and I get offered a "solution" that is not a solution to my situation or preferences at all.

I'll quote Robbie here:
"It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did."

Hence I said I'll use NMM or hope someone makes an extension like that. You can never make everyone happy.

Dark0ne wrote: Your preferences are pretty niche, Elianora, but I still love ya :D

I do think it is interesting that when I visit these news releases, check the V forums, or I am in various discord channels that this seems to come up (load order).

I read the link and it all makes sense from a general viewpoint.

It is also clear others would like another option.

That being said I do respect the decisions made. I may not agree with them, and apparently others do not either, but their tool, their site, their decision.

I choose to stay with V and live with the sorting even though I still run into problems with the auto-sorting and have to over-ride to fix them but at least its a small number (7 out of 298 mods currently that I have to over-ride).

Elinora did make a great point. For me, and my anal/OCD tendacies, I like sorting all my many plug-ins into groups [EDIT: My own groups not the default categories. Meaning I just clustered the plug-ins into groups visually outside of specific needs for specific order]. I always did that in NMM. It may not be optimal or best practice but I miss that. Sure I could do that in V but man it would take a lot more work to do so.

I do know others gave up on it over the load sorting. Granted its a tiny number compared to over all users but 3 folks on the discord I am on all tried it and two weeks later, after much swearing over the load sort, dropped V and went back to NMM. These are all veterans who know what they are doing and understood how to manage V over-rides. They do testing, often need very specific orders, etc.

Anyhow would be cool if there was some way to add an extension or plugin to V to allow for this for those who want it. Although I understand for most casual users V works fine for the reasons outlined in the article linked to WIKI.

Mod the mod so to speak :) Edited July 30, 2019 by wolfgrimdark

[fgambler]

In response to post #72145018. #72145208, #72145393, #72145468, #72145633, #72145733, #72145868 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: Vortex still has no method of simply and manually sorting mods without creating groups or LOOT rules. To be clear, basic load ordering is a built-in feature for every Bethesda game, and yet Vortex, a program designed to manage a load order, cannot do this. It's more of a front end for LOOT than a proper mod manager.

If you are a new user, I would urge you to use one of the other and more robust mod management options available:

Mod Organizer: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/1334/
Mod Organizer 2: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/6194
Nexus Mod Manager (community updated edition): https://github.com/Nexus-Mods/Nexus-Mod-Manager/releases
Or even Wrye for something a little simpler that still allows for manual control: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/1840/?

On top of that, install LOOT, which is a powerful tool that automatically sorts your load order. If you choose a proper mod manager + LOOT, you have both the option to sort manually and quick automatic sorting. If you choose Vortex, you only have automatic sorting unless you fiddle with convoluted groups and LOOT rules. See the problem? Vortex doesn't give you the same degree of control, but carries with it no advantages that other mod managers can't already do when paired with LOOT.

All of these programs also have significantly more functional user interfaces than Vortex, which wastes an absurd amount of space, resulting in constant scrolling through hilariously oversized lists.

If you choose something other than Vortex, you won't regret it. The only way I'd recommend Vortex is if you are an absolute beginner who only plans to install a few mods, and is okay with relying entirely on automatic sorting, and even then I'd urge you to spend <10 minutes learning another mod manager over Vortex for best results.

Also, the times I have tried Vortex have both resulted in my existing load order being nuked, which was a pain. If you have a game going and already use a different program, don't switch to Vortex unless you are absolutely ready to have to set everything up again. If you're setting up a new load order, obviously, this is not a concern.

Dark0ne wrote: As the people who actually made NMM, MO and Vortex, we disagree with Robbie's assessment.

logan1710 wrote: Ignoring something that 95% of your users want and often asks just because you "disagree" with it, isn't something you should be so open about in the replies.

Dark0ne wrote:

Ignoring something that 95% of your users want

That's a made up number, so I'll ignore it.

isn't something you should be so open about in the replies.

We're open about it in the news, in our wiki, in the software itself and on our forums. I have no problem saying it in comments either.

Robbie922004 wrote: @logan1710 It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did.

But just because I have no problem with their decision doesn't mean I want to use the program that is the result of those decisions. In this case, I definitely would not, and generally think other people should be informed of other options before they choose Vortex. On the other hand, there are definitely lots of folks who like Vortex and that's okay, too. It's fairly inconsequential at the end of the day, the only reason I posted at all is because I saw the news and genuinely think most users will have a worse experience with Vortex than other programs. I always want to see modding go as well as it can for anybody, new and old users alike, and believe strongly that better options exist elsewhere. But hey, I'm just one guy and people can make up their own minds after reviewing the choices for themselves.

Dark0ne wrote: It's perfectly fine for us both to disagree, Robbie.

If we ever have a meetup, I'd love to have a sit down between people who don't understand our reasoning, myself and Tannin and actually have a face to face chat about it, and the logic behind it. Text simply isn't a good medium for these things.

I will say that this choice was Tannin's (and not the other way around), and he's had to convince several of us of the merits of the system over the past few years. But everyone here "gets it", and thankfully, lots of other users do now, too. We'll continue to improve it as time moves on, including the UI that you don't like :P

Angiath wrote: 1. There is no reason to sort your mods manually, and there are many reasons not to, all of which have been covered before in detail. The rules are not convoluted (in fact they are very simple - mod y after mod x, group b after group a) and they are easier to manage than with loot.

2. NMM is an unworkable mess, for reasons that have long since been known. It shouldn't be recommended to switch to NMM, period.

3. "wastes an absurd amount of space, resulting in constant scrolling through hilariously oversized lists"
Disliking the UI spacing is an entirely valid complaint, but one that can be resolved with the custom styles that vortex allows you to create and apply.

4. "The only way I'd recommend Vortex is if you are an absolute beginner who only plans to install a few mods"
As an experienced user who switched from NMM with over 300 mods and worked up to >450 with vortex, I just have to completely and emphatically disagree with this.

5. "Also, the times I have tried Vortex have both resulted in my existing load order being nuked"
Pardon the language, but RTFM. The creators themselves discourage switching mid-playthrough for exactly this reason. Also, *DON'T MANUALLY SORT PLUGINS*

I might switch to Vortex at some point, but the Nexus should never have dropped support for NMM downloads.